God commanded Abraham?

[Benji]

Actually Mormonator, there's plenty of evidence that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were false prophets aside from the fact that they were polygamists but that was not my point in this thread. I agree with your #1 that they were definitely sinners.

Thanks for your honesty Paul about the fact that mormons and Christians have a different gospel. Hopefully others of the LDS faith will follow your lead and quit trying to make it seem like Mormonism and Christianity are one in the same.

[The Mormonator]

Actually Mormonator, there's plenty of evidence that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were false prophets aside from the fact that they were polygamists but that was not my point in this thread.

[Benji]

Well Mormonator, I have submitted my evidence on other threads but since that was not the purpose of this thread I'll let you check those out for yourself. You can also click on the links following my posts for more evidence. Please feel free to start a new thread if you have evidence that they were prophets.

As for the question of being a sinner, yes I am indeed guilty. Does God expect us to be perfect? That is a great question. Here's some verses that might help answer it:

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Hebrews 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Galatians 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.

These verses illustrate the fact that the standard of God is indeed perfection and yet Christ is the only one who was without sin. Therefore, because he paid the penalty for us, we become perfect in His sight. This is the only way to be perfect and is essential to the Gospel of Christ found in the Bible.

I am aware that in some ways we have strayed from the original purpose of this thread and yet in other ways we have not. Perhaps a new thread should be started?

[The Mormonator]

Well Mormonator, I have submitted my evidence on other threads but since that was not the purpose of this thread I'll let you check those out for yourself. You can also click on the links following my posts for more evidence. Please feel free to start a new thread if you have evidence that they were prophets.

You have already rejected the evidences that God Himself has given you.

I like the verse from Thessalonians that you have following

your posts. They are indeed words of wisdom: "Hold fast that which is good."

The Book of Mormon is no doubt good, therefore I will hold fast to it.

Those are very lovely Anti-Mormon web sites you provide.

Here are some Anti-Christian/Bible web sites in token of my appreciation:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible2.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesu..._prophecies.htm

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra...radictions.html

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/immoral.htm

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rr.html

Here's a question for you: Which web sites should one believe??? The ones you have listed, or the ones I have listed?

Please explain your answer.

[Benji]

Actually, the web sites I have listed are not at all anti-mormon. The first one consists purely of statements made by LDS leaders. The second one also consists of statements made by LDS leaders along with scientific research. It even has the arguments in defense of mormonism as well. Since those sites contain primarily statements by Mormon leaders, you have a strange definition of anti-mormon.

The sites you listed are arguments against Christianity and I welcome people to check them out, weigh the evidence, and make their own decision based on all the facts. That's the great thing about the freedoms we have. Anyone can investigate a truth claim for themselves and see if it holds water.

[The Mormonator]

Actually, the web sites I have listed are not at all anti-mormon.

I know.

The first one consists purely of statements made by LDS leaders. The second one also consists of statements made by LDS leaders along with scientific research. It even has the arguments in defense of mormonism as well.

But what are the purposes and/or objectives of the sites?? To support Mormonism or to oppose it?? Geez, that's a tough. Noooooo, they're not anti-Mormon.

Call 1-800-IMA-ANTI

This is the Anti-Mormon's Anonymous toll free number.

Give them a call. I've heard they have a great support group.

[1dc]

1dc, your "interpretation" of these verses is a minority view held only by Mormons.

Well, go with the majority if that is how you define Truth.

The standard Christian view of this section is that Abram and Sarai were impatient and tried to fulfill God's promise on their own.  This had serious repercussions that are still affecting us today (the conflict between Arabs and Jews).  Therefore, this is a clear example where Mormon doctrine differs from standard Christian doctrine.

Standard by your definition and assumptions, anyway. As if no other Christians might honestly have other opinions? For example, I believe you quoted Sarai as saying "I pray thee" . . doesn't sound like she thought they were on their own at all. Of course, you're welcome to pull out a Websters and use another definition if you want to go with such as your inspired response.

PS - Who established Sarah's descendents as the covenant people without including Hagar's? Think ye He was punishing the children for the sins of the father?

As for blessing the world through the seed of an adulterer, not even Mormons argue about David's sin of adultery and he was also in the bloodline of Christ who was the ultimate fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham.

Ah, but Abraham is the subject of your thread, not David. Even the same Abraham [not Abram ] whose righteousness and works were held up as an example in John 8:29 and many other times by Jesus, the Son.

I will continue to suggest you take up your concerns about Abraham and now perhaps also God's punishment of Hagar's descendents with God.

[Benji]

Actually the purpose of both sites is to present facts and let people decide for themselves whether or not the LDS church is true. Here is a quote from the first site's webmaster about its emphasis:

"The emphasis here is on historically interesting items that, because of their controversy, or simply their obscurity, are not generally well known by Mormon church members at large."

Here's a quote from the second site's webmaster:

"The desire for truth has been my only motivation in creating this website. I have compiled this information in a sincere effort to explore the validity of the claim that the LDS church is the "only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased." (D&C 1:30) In so doing, I've tried to be objective and fair by including both my concerns and what I consider to be the strongest responses to those concerns by church apologists."

Again, I see nothing anti-mormon about these sites.

[Confidential Informant]

The standard Christian view of this section is that Abram and Sarai were impatient and tried to fulfill God's promise on their own.  This had serious repercussions that are still affecting us today (the conflict between Arabs and Jews).  Therefore, this is a clear example where Mormon doctrine differs from standard Christian doctrine.

Gee, if that's the case, I wonder if any geneticist has found the DNA that proves common ancestory for Jews and Arabs? If they are all descended from Abraham, they ought to share his Y DNA.

If they don't, am I justified in assuming that Abraham never existed?

C.I.

[Benji]

Actually 1dc, my only concern from the beginning has been that even though mormon doctrine and scripture are preaching a gospel other than the one found in the Bible, there has been a concerted effort to make the Mormon church appear to be just another Christian denomination. This is extremely misleading. I was pleasantly surprised when Paul O. acknowledged this difference and hopefully other Mormons will follow his lead.

You completely missed my point about the fact that mormons and christians disagree on this issue (among several others). I challenge you to find one non-LDS person who claims to be a Christian and holds to the same interpretation you have asserted.

As for David being an adulterer and murderer, I was merely illustrating the point that God uses sinners to fulfill his promises.

[1dc]

).  I challenge you to find one non-LDS person who claims to be a Christian and holds to the same interpretation you have asserted. 

Do you propose some prize if I accept your challenge? How would it be to my benefit since I'm already very comfortable with my own Christian understanding? (Which is that monogamy is expected for the world today, with only one prophet on the earth to speak for the Lord should He change it again in these last days.)

This first site was posted previously by someone else . . it shows there has been an honest Christian debate on this topic for literally centuries . . and that it continues.

http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Aut...selPolygamy.pdf

Next we find non-LDS Christians who base their belief in polygamy on the Bible using argument from both the OT and NT.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy24.html

http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM-HP-Index.html

http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/Stivers1.html

And finally, some interesting Christian history from an unexpected source.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy5.htm

[Paul Osborne]

Actually 1dc, my only concern from the beginning has been that even though mormon doctrine and scripture are preaching a gospel other than the one found in the Bible, there has been a concerted effort to make the Mormon church appear to be just another Christian denomination.  This is extremely misleading.  I was pleasantly surprised when Paul O. acknowledged this difference and hopefully other Mormons will follow his lead.

Hold on there, friend; I admit that the Mormon church teaches a different gospel than what Christians today teach. But that is not to say the Mormon church is not akin to the original Christian church

[The Mormonator]

Paul Osborne:Do you want to continue with the tradition of Christians today who think they know things they have never been told by God or go with further light and knowledge?

That is exactly what they want to do. It is too difficult and and too faith tasking to do anything else.

Christians today are uninformed and made up the idea about Abraham and Hagar being wrongfully wedded.

Yep. They made it up because it fits better with their western way of thinking. Pretending that Abraham and Jacob were not Polygamists makes them feel better.

They didn

[Benji]

1dc you misunderstood my point. My challenge was about God specifically commanding Abram in Genesis 16 to sleep with Hagar, not about polygamy in general.

Paul, yes I am well aware Mormons believe that Joseph Smith "restored" the gospel. And this is another point where Mromons and Christians dramatically differ. The doctrine is not "pretty much the same" as you claim. I have seen you assert on this site that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones which is not what Christians believe. Huge doctrinal differences.

Mormonator, your comments only confirm just how much Mormons and Christians differ in their doctrine.

Here's some verses from the Bible that illustrate my point:

Galatians 1:8-9 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Revelation 22:18-19 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Matthew 24:5 - For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

[Drewm777]

Well Paul, I'm sure you would be shocked to learn a lot of things that the Christian world thinks because it is a different gospel than the one taught by the Mormon church. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Take car

I'm sorry Benji, but that was too funny not to make a comment on. The truth of the matter is, that the so-called" christian world thinks differently because they do in fact practice a false religion that has no more power to save than Baal. Mormonism is true Christianity restored in the latter-days. It will turn heathens into gods, while your "christianity" and all who cling thereto and do not repent will sink down to hell.

[Benji]

Thanks Drewm777 for emphasizing another huge difference between Christianity and Mormonism - The Mormon doctrine that men can become gods of their own worlds. You also acknowledged that Mormons believe Christians are deceived and that we practice false religion. I don't hear too many Mormons acknowledge this anymore even though Joseph Smith claimed God told him that "all churches were false and an abomination" after he prayed asking which to join. Clearly there are huge differences between Mormonism and Christianity and it is a good thing when they are brought out into the open like this.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Benji writes:

... even though Joseph Smith claimed God told him that "all churches were false and an abomination" after he prayed asking which to join.

He did? Would you provide the source for this quote?

(Let me give you a hint - you made it up .... at least try and be accurate - it's not like the account isn't easily available on the internet.)

Ben

[Benji]

Well, actually I paraphrased what he said from memory so I shoudln't have used quotes. Here is the original from the Pearl of Great Price:

"...No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt..."

As you can see, the essence of what I said is correct...

[The Mormonator]

"...No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt..."

Hey, I'm going to have to go with Benjii on this one. God did tell Joseph that all the church were wrong.

Here is something else God said that I am very very concerned about:

Gen 6

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

According to God the he is going to destroy the earth because it is so wicked!!

He is going to destroy the earth by bringing a great flood that will kill everything!!

When is this going to happen?! I need to prepare. Maybe I should join the navy and get on one of those nuclear submarines. My chances of survival might improve. I suggest you all start building ships. The floods could be here any day!!!

Speaking of water Benjii, your argument holds none.

[Benji]

Mormonator, are you saying you don't believe the flood already happened?

[Tetraforce]

I'd think he was trying to make some sort of parallel about people mocking prophets... I think.

[Benji]

Well I guess I'm guilty if you consider it mocking to merely quote the words of Joseph Smith to illustrate the fact that he claimed God told him not to join any Christian church because they were all an abomination...

But then again, I would disagree that JS was a prophet to begin with so comparing him to Noah is pretty silly(especially since Noah wasn't really a prophet but a Biblical figure).

[1dc]

1dc you misunderstood my point. My challenge was about God specifically commanding Abram in Genesis 16 to sleep with Hagar, not about polygamy in general.

You know, it's kinda funny how you skipped over all those Christians who don't think Abraham was an adulterer as you seem to suggest . . what was their logic, after all?

And you dismissed Paul's as fast as you got it . . heck, how many times have people said they'd wish they could find an independent observer to confirm LDS claims . . Josephus is about as close as anyone could ask to meet such a request.

BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer about the prize?

[Big Dogger]

The truth of the matter is, that the so-called" christian world thinks differently because they do in fact practice a false religion that has no more power to save than Baal. Mormonism is true Christianity restored in the latter-days. It will turn heathens into gods, while your "christianity" and all who cling thereto and do not repent will sink down to hell.

HOW DARE YOU?!?!?! YOU ARE NOT GOD! ONLY GOD WILL JUDGE MANKIND.

I am horrified that anyone of any denomination would make such a claim.

How dare you claim that all non-LDS Christians will "sink down to hell"? How dare you...

[Paul McNabb]

The truth of the matter is, that the so-called" christian world thinks differently because they do in fact practice a false religion that has no more power to save than Baal.  Mormonism is true Christianity restored in the latter-days.  It will turn heathens into gods, while your "christianity" and all who cling thereto and do not repent will sink down to hell.

HOW DARE YOU?!?!?! YOU ARE NOT GOD! ONLY GOD WILL JUDGE MANKIND.

I am horrified that anyone of any denomination would make such a claim.

How dare you claim that all non-LDS Christians will "sink down to hell"? How dare you...

Not that I agree with Drewm, but isn't what he said essentially what all Evangelical say about everyone else in the world? They tell me my brand of Christianity is a cult and that I'm going to burn in hell unless I give it up and accept Evangelical theology? I listen to "Christian radio" every day, and I hear that message many times every day.