God commanded Abraham?

[Benji]

maj, just because God gave commands on the treatment of different people does not mean He endorsed their behavior. God is loving and cares about how everyone is treated.

[The Mormonator]

How do we know this claim is credible? We can study in the ways I have already mentioned (research of archaeology, character of Joseph, Egyptology) and like the Bereans did. Well, I have studied and these claims do not hold up under scrutiny.

Benji, how could you still be holding this argument. You know it is fluffier than fluff.

Is this what the non-Jewish Greeks and Romans did to see if Paul's claims were credible???

1. Did they research archaeology??

No.

2. Did they examine the Character of Paul??

Could quite possibly be true. But then again, it would not be hard for a crafty Roman or Greek dude to throw mud all over Paul's character since he was a major Christian persecutor before his conversion. He did all sorts of nasty things to the Christians. Many could have looked at this and concluded that his character was tainted.

3. Egyptology???

Uuuuh. No. I don't think so.

So how did they know his claims were credible??

What reasons would a non-Jewish Pagan Greek guy have to stop worshipping Zeus and start worshipping Jesus???

In an earlier thread you said this to me:

Mormonator, I agree that they were converted by the power of the Holy Spirit....

While the verse in Acts that I quoted was referring to Jews, it is important to note that Paul still commended them. Does that mean that these Jews were not converted by the Holy Spirit? Of course not. It just means that the Holy Spirit used that as part of His leading of them.....

-underlines added.

But now you are saying it is through "research of archaeology, [character], [and] Egyptology".

Is it the Holy Spirit or someting else???

Make up your mind.

[The Mormonator]

Sorry, I just had to laugh at the John Kerry joke. I wouldn't equate this poor fellow on the message board with someone so ignorant as John Kerry

I don't think John Kerry is ignorant. He was just willing to say almost anything to get elected. He was trying to do the popular thing when it was popular.

He's definitely not ignorant. Very intelligent and competent.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't vote for him.

[Benji]

Archeaology and Egyptology are available to us today and that is my point. If something is true, it's going to be consistent with those discilpines. That is something you cannot deny Mormonator.

[The Mormonator]

Josephus's writings are not scripture and any claims he made are not accepted as revelation from God.

And who is the one that determines whether someting is "accepted as revelation from God"? Who is the arbiter in such matters?

The Pope?

George W. Bush?

Billy Graham?

Congress?

Jesse Jackson?

Al Sharpton?

Michael Moore?

You?

WHO???

Perhaps we should all vote on it.

[urroner]

Benji said:

urroner, I believe it contains the only ones we need to know.

I say:

So you believe that it contains the only ones we need to know, but the problem I have with this Benji is that this belief is very non-Biblical and that is where I find the inconsistensies within your argument.

It seems to me that you insist that doctrine has to be biblical, but the doctrine of sola scritura is completely sans scritura as is this belief of yours about the the completeness of the Bible.

So, do you expect us LDSers to accept this belief of yours simply because it "feels" good to you?

[Benji]

Well Mormonator, if you want to accept the writings of Josephus as scripture please feel free...

[Benji]

It is not because it "feels" good to me. The conclusions I have come to about Christianity and Mormonism have nothing to do with feelings. First, I believe that God revealed to me that His gospel is true and can be found in the Bible alone. Second, the research I have done has lined up with what I believe. Third, Because God is not a God of confusion, he is not going to introduce things later down the line that contradict what he has already revealed. Fourth, The Bible makes it clear that there will be many who come and try to change the gospel by stories they have made up and I see this to be the case with Mormonism. here is the verse I am referring to:

2 peter 2: 1-4

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them

[The Mormonator]

Archeaology and Egyptology are available to us today and that is my point. If something is true, it's going to be consistent with those discilpines. That is something you cannot deny Mormonator.

No. You are right. I cannot deny it. I agree with you. They are available to us.

But they are not what converts!

If something is true, it's going to be consistent with those discilpines.

Really???

1. Is Jesus' walking on water consistent with any scientific discipline?

No. Oops. Not true then.

2. Is Lazarus arrising from the dead after being dead for over three days consistent with any scientific disciplines??

No. Oops. Not true then

3. Is Jeses ascending into Heaven consistent with any scientific disciplines?

No. Ooops. Not true then.

Here are some verses you might want to ponder a bit:

1 Corinthians 1

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we apreach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

[Guest johnny_cat]

First, I believe that God revealed to me that His gospel is true and can be found in the Bible alone.

Something's wrong here. You claim that the Bible alone contains God's truth, yet you base your beliefs on extra-Biblical revelation. By your standards, that revelation is false.

[The Mormonator]

It is not because it "feels" good to me. The conclusions I have come to about Christianity and Mormonism have nothing to do with feelings. First, I believe that God revealed to me that His gospel is true and can be found in the Bible alone. Second, the research I have done has lined up with what I believe. Third, Because God is not a God of confusion, he is not going to introduce things later down the line that contradict what he has already revealed. Fourth, The Bible makes it clear that there will be many who come and try to change the gospel by stories they have made up and I see this to be the case with Mormonism. here is the verse I am referring to:

OK. That is nice for YOU. But you are still evading my quetion.

I am asking specifically about those Romans and Greeks that Paul and the Apostles preached to that were converted.

They did not have the Bible. They did not have scriptures. They did not have archaeology and such.

How then were they converted?? How did they know what Paul was saying was true?

How were they to determine whether he was a false teacher???

Please. Could you pretty pretty please answer the question, pretty pretty please???

[Benji]

johnny_cat, actually, I claimed that God revealed that his gospel is true and could be found in the Bible alone. I also claimed that the research I have done has lined up and been consistent with that belief. This only confirms what God already revealed which of course makes sense.

Mormonator, the 3 examples you gave obviously cannot be demonstrated by any kind of research. But that was not my point. My point was that there are things that can be demonstrated by research. Therefore, if the people, places and things of the Bible are true, then any research we do is going to line up with that. Obviously, not every single claim made in the Bible can be corroborated through archeaology but many of the things that can be most certianly have. This is not true for Mormon scripture.

[Guest johnny_cat]

How then were they converted?? How did they know what Paul was saying was true?

As we saw a moment ago, most believers do act on strong convictions and feelings. We Mormons would say, for example, that the witness of the Spirit is the final arbiter of truth after one has studied and researched and prayed. But for someone like Benji, the role of the Bible as the sole repository and dispenser of truth is a core belief. So, they in effect can reject anyone else's personal revelation. They, on the other hand, follow only the Bible as the gold standard of truth. Yet, in unguarded moments, they will admit, as Benji did, that they believe for the same reasons and from the same sources that everyone does.

[Benji]

Mormonator, honestly you'd have to ask those particular Romans and Greeks about their experience because I wasn't there. It is obvious you're trying to demonstrate that "pure revelation" is all that is necessary for faith because Mormonism crumbles under the scrutiny of research and you base everything on the burning in the bosom. You still cannot deny that other things that are true should line up with God's revelation.

[Guest johnny_cat]

Mormonator, honestly you'd have to ask those particular Romans and Greeks about their experience because I wasn't there. It is obvious you're trying to demonstrate that "pure revelation" is all that is necessary for faith because Mormonism crumbles under the scrutiny of research and you base everything on the burning in the bosom.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Benji]

johnny_cat has misrepresented what I said but this is nothing new.

[Guest johnny_cat]

johnny_cat has misrepresented what I said but this is nothing new.

I suppose I could be offended that you are essentially calling me a liar, but really, I'm not (offended or a liar).

Let's review again:

You claim that

1. We Mormons rely on feelings (we call it revelation).

2. The Book of Mormon and other doctrines don't hold up to scrutiny.

3. Mormon doctrines don't line up with God's prior revelations.

Yet, on the other hand,

You base your belief on personal revelation

You don't apply scrutiny to your own beliefs

Your standard for truth is your take on the scriptures, to the exclusion of others.

Am I missing something here?

[Benji]

What you are missing is the fact that I have applied scrutiny to the Bible and it has held up. This is one of the indicators that it is a reliable standard of truth. God revealed to me that the story found in the Bible regarding the deity of Christ is true. Obviously that aspect of the Bible must be believed by faith, but many other things can be demonstrated to be true. This is not a contradiction.

[Guest johnny_cat]

What you are missing is the fact that I have applied scrutiny to the Bible and it has held up. This is one of the indicators that it is a reliable standard of truth. God revealed to me that the story found in the Bible regarding the deity of Christ is true. Obviously that aspect of the Bible must be believed by faith, but many other things can be demonstrated to be true. This is not a contradiction.

I could say exactly the same thing about the Book of Mormon and its testimony of the Savior. Where does that leave us? We both rest on personal revelation. Yet you insist that your faith is somehow more rational than mine. Very strange,

[urroner]

Benji responds when asked if his beliefs about the Bible are extra-Biblical:

First, I believe that God revealed to me that His gospel is true and can be found in the Bible alone.

...

Fourth, The Bible makes it clear that there will be many who come and try to change the gospel by stories they have made up and I see this to be the case with Mormonism.  here is the verse I am referring to:

2 peter 2: 1-4

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them

[urroner]

Benji said:

What you are missing is the fact that I have applied scrutiny to the Bible and it has held up.

I say:

What type of scrutiny did you apply to the Bible?

[Benji]

All I'm suggesting is that the books Jospeh Smith claimed to translate do not hold up under independent scrutiny and that there are many other inconsistencies between Mormonism and the Bible (which was the original point of this post by the way). True, ultimately it does come down to an individual person's decision to believe what they think is true based on whatever reasons they may have. On that point we can agree. As for thinking my faith is more rational than yours, I never said that. I do not think I am in any way superior to you johnny_cat or anyone else for that matter. My point on this board is to raise and discuss legitimate questions about issues with Mormonism for the purpose of seeking truth.

[Guest johnny_cat]

All I'm suggesting is that the books Jospeh Smith claimed to translate do not hold up under independent scrutiny and that there are many other inconsistencies between Mormonism and the Bible (which was the original point of this post by the way).

Many people feel the same way about the Bible. Whose scrutiny is right? And many of us don't find inconsistencies between the Bible and LDS doctrine. Again, who is right, and how does one know?

[Benji]

urroner, I do not claim to be a prophet and never have. I do believe that the Bible has made prophecies concerning false prophets and I quoted a section out of 2 peter that I believe applies to Joseph Smith and others (both LDS and non-LDS) like him.

As for throwing out the porions of the OT that can't be verified by confirming evidence, that is up to you. I have never claimed that the entire Bible can be verified by evidence. My point has always been that much of it can which gives it credibility. This should answer your question about what kind of scrutiny I have applied to the Bible.

[Benji]

johnny_cat, your statement that "many people the same way about the Bible" does not include the fact that NO ONE DISPUTES the extistence of Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews, and many other things recorded in the Bible. This is not the case with mormon scripture. Of course, ultimately we all have to make decisions based on our own reasons. It seems that one would want their faith to line up with things we already know to be true but that's just me.