Hebrew Idiom My Skin Is Black

[JAHS]

And what you've just described is also your well-intended opinion. On the question of whether the prophets speak by revelation, how often and under what circumstances we're really only left with opinion. Just like they seem to be.

The question I have for you and others who hold this view is this: what happens when you reach a conclusion, through prayer, that a particular statement was revelation not opinion but another member goes through the same process and concludes the prophet was speaking his opinion.

Robert seems to have suggested, for example, that President Hinkley's statement on earrings was a well meaning opinion and not revelation. If another member concludes that it was inspired by God. Who's right and how can you tell the difference?

That's easy. I just follow whatever the current prophet says we should do as if it were inspird by God, whether I think it's opinion or revelation. I still study the issue and pray to God for confirmtion about what the prophet says and to ask for His help in following it. Doing so hasn't impeded my eternal life yet.  I also know that there are 14 other prophets there to confirm what he says and to make sure he doesn't lead me astray.

I figure Prophets tell us what we need to know now for our time. If in a few years a new prophet tells us something that appears to be contraictory to the old one, I follow what the new one says because it is what we need at the time he says it.  

[pogi]

The question I have for you and others who hold this view is this: what happens when you reach a conclusion, through prayer, that a particular statement was revelation not opinion but another member goes through the same process and concludes the prophet was speaking his opinion.

Robert seems to have suggested, for example, that President Hinkley's statement on earrings was a well meaning opinion and not revelation. If another member concludes that it was inspired by God. Who's right and how can you tell the difference?

 

Many people made similar contrasting conclusions regarding Christ's teachings.  Do you then conclude that Christ too was just a  broken clock, giving well-intended opinion? 

 

Just like there is a spectrum of inspiration, there is also a spectrum of discernment, again, due to our own inconsistencies.  Will you only believe when it is given to all to know without doubt?

 

I personally am not troubled when people of my own faith come to different conclusions.  It is to be expected given that we are all at different places on the spectrum of inspiration and discernment.  We all do the best to follow the light we have been given and progress line-upon line. That's all. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by pogi

[Gray]

 In other words, our foundation of revelation gives inspiration the proper context.  It keeps us more in-line.  Without revelation, we are just another church - one no better than the other. 

 

How awful to think that our path might not be superior to everyone else's.  

[pogi]

How awful to think that our path might not be superior to everyone else's.  

 

I know, right!? 

 

No, It's not about being superior to everyone else, it's about believing that he who is superior to us actually did established a church based on the foundation of revelation (Matt 16:18).    

[Gray]

I know, right!? 

 

No, It's not about being superior to everyone else, it's about believing that he who is superior to us actually did established a church based on the foundation of revelation (Matt 16:18).    

 

He made us more than just another church, better than any other. But it's not about being superior.

 

I don't think it's possible to extricate that uncomfortable notion (and I don't think you're comfortable with the way I phrased it) from the idea that we are the one true church with the one true authority. There is an urge toward greater pluralism and ecumenicalism in the church today, but this doctrine makes it difficult to really be very ecumenical. 

 

Regarding revelation, you mentioned that it's more about inspiration than revelation per se. I agree. But you can find inspiration in any tradition. Revelation too, but most traditions (including ours) have canonized revelations comfortably in the past. So the foundation of revelation isn't all that unique. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by Gray

[Mars]

i'm not - and i'm positive pogi is not - ascribing a sense of "better" to it.

[Gray]

i'm not - and i'm positive pogi is not - ascribing a sense of "better" to it.

 

The phrase that I was responding to was "Without revelation, we are just another church - one no better than the other."

 

It follows from that sentence that if we have revelation, that does make us better than the others, yes? Otherwise why the concern about not being better than faith traditions?

 

The one true church thing appeals to personal pride. But then it also makes us uncomfortable because we have a strong narrative against pride. We're not sure what to do with it, so we talk about how there is truth in all traditions.

 

It's not unlike how we handle the way women are treated in the church. They are given second class status, which I think makes most of us uncomfortable. We try not to think about it. So we reflexively try to make up for it by over-emphasizing how amazing women are.

 

In the modern church, we also like to say that other faith traditions are wonderful, and have many truths. I think that's because we're uncomfortable about the second class status they are given in our doctrine. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by Gray

[Mars]

The phrase that I was responding to was "Without revelation, we are just another church - one no better than the other."

 

It follows that if we have revelation, that does make us better than the others, yes? Otherwise we the concern about not being better than faith traditions?

 

better in what sense?

[pogi]

He made us more than just another church, better than any other. But it's not about being superior.

 

I don't think it's possible to extricate that uncomfortable notion (and I don't think you're comfortable with the way I phrased it) from the idea that we are the one true church with the one true authority. There is an urge toward greater pluralism and ecumenicalism in the church today, but this doctrine makes it difficult to really be very ecumenical. 

 

Yes, you can extricate the superiority complex from the true and living gospel of Christ.  It is required in fact.

 

Is being humble better than being prideful?  

 

Does that mean being humble is about being superior to everyone else?

[Gray]

better in what sense?

 

Better in the eyes of God. 

[Mars]

Better in the eyes of God. 

 

i'm really not trying to be contrary.  but you're saying who is doing the considering of what's better - not qualifying how you think we're saying we're better.

 

so, again...  better how?  in what sense?  more valuable?  more loved?

[Gray]

Yes, you can extricate the superiority complex from the true and living gospel of Christ.  It is required in fact.

 

Is being humble better than being prideful?  

 

Does that mean being humble is about being superior to everyone else?

 

I don't think you can. I think at best you can try to counter balance it with positive rhetoric about other faiths. I think as we mature as a faith the rhetoric of "the one true church" will fade and the validity of other paths will be recognized. But I'm a hopeless optimist.

[Gray]

i'm really not trying to be contrary.  but you're saying who is doing the considering of what's better - not qualifying how you think we're saying we're better.

 

so, again...  better how?  in what sense?  more valuable?  more loved?

 

Considered by God to be free from major doctrinal errors. Uniquely eligible to become heirs of God. Uniquely true. Uniquely authoritative. In other words superior in all the important ways. 

[Mars]

Considered by God to be free from major doctrinal errors. Uniquely eligible to become heirs of God. Uniquely true. Uniquely authoritative. In other words superior in all the important ways. 

 

sure...  for the sake of trying to find common ground, i would agree with all of those senses except "uniquely eligible to become heirs of God" for reasons already elaborated in this and in california boy's thread about the success rate of God's plan.  i just balk at 'superior.'  because i don't think being incorrect or not having authority makes you or your faith inferior.

[Mars]

I don't think you can. I think at best you can try to counter balance it with positive rhetoric about other faiths. I think as we mature as a faith the rhetoric of "the one true church" will fade and the validity of other paths will be recognized. But I'm a hopeless optimist.

 

 

like this?

 

"Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from mortal progenitors, but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father.

 

"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

 

"The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel.

 

"Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come.

 

"We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to his Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happiness and a fullness of joy forever. For those who have not received this gospel, the opportunity will come to them in the life hereafter if not in this life.

 

"Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are the sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father."

Spencer W. Kimball N. Eldon Tanner Marion G. Romney^{"     http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/FDINT203/FIrst%20Presidency%20Statement%20Feb%201978.html}

[pogi]

I don't think you can. I think at best you can try to counter balance it with positive rhetoric about other faiths. I think as we mature as a faith the rhetoric of "the one true church" will fade and the validity of other paths will be recognized. But I'm a hopeless optimist.

 

 

You absolutely can extricate the superiority complex.  Being a member of Christ's church is not about being better than others - there is no complex. 

 

It is not that this is the "best" path to God, it is that this is the "only" path to God.  There is only one gate and one path according to scripture.  

 

When people of other faiths do their own personal best, just like me, their paths will inevitably lead to the one true path.  My reward will be no different from theirs.    

 

That is what is so great about the plan of salvation made known through revelation.  It is about doing our personal best with the light we have been given.  The atonement and temple work gives validity to our own personal best whether in the church or out.   

Edited September 18, 2015 by pogi

[pogi]

How can I say that my personal best is better than another's personal best, simply because I am a member of the church?  I can't make that judgement. 

[Gray]

sure...  for the sake of trying to find common ground, i would agree with all of those senses except "uniquely eligible to become heirs of God" for reasons already elaborated in this and in california boy's thread about the success rate of God's plan.  i just balk at 'superior.'  because i don't think being incorrect or not having authority makes you or your faith inferior.

 

How could be being incorrect and without authority NOT make them inferior? Thanks 

[Gray]

You absolutely can extricate the superiority complex.  Being a member of Christ's church is not about being better than others - there is no complex. 

 

It is not that this is the "best" path to God, it is that this is the "only" path to God.  There is only one gate and one path according to scripture.  

 

When people of other faiths do their own personal best, just like me, their paths will inevitably lead to the one true path.  My reward will be no different from theirs.    

 

That is what is so great about the plan of salvation made known through revelation.  It is about doing our personal best with the light we have been given.  The atonement and temple work gives validity to our own personal best whether in the church or out.   

 

If it's possible to extricate the superiority complex, I don't think you've shown an example of how it can be done. People of other faiths will only find truth when they find our path, as you observe. That places our path on a superior position to theirs. It is they who must change and become more like us. What you're really saying is that God is merciful and will allow them space to find the right path eventually, not that their current path could be equal to ours. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by Gray

[Mars]

How could be being incorrect and without authority NOT make them inferior? Thanks 

 

because there's no comparison that needs to be made.  God's not trying to compare your service to mine.  just me against me and you against you.

[pogi]

If it's possible to extricate the superiority complex, I don't think you've shown an example of how it can be done. People of other faiths will only find truth when they find our path, as you observe. That places our path on a superior position to theirs. It is they who must change and become more like us. What you're really saying is that God is merciful and will allow them space to find the right path eventually, not that their current path could be equal to ours. 

 

I do not believe for one second that I am more likely to be saved than someone outside the church.  I do not believe that I am more righteous, more Christ-like, more humble, more charitable, more faithful to the light that I have been given than they are.  I am confident that there are many non-members far more advanced than I am spiritually speaking. 

 

The only advantage that I have is timing - which is a negligible advantage in the eternal grand scheme of things (especially considering that the first shall be last and the last shall be first  ). 

 

Yes, the one true path is better than all other paths, if that is what you are trying to get me to admit.  Does that make ME superior?  Absolutely not!  Because someone has not yet found the path, does not diminish from who they are or what they have done with the light they have been given.  They may be very well on the path to THE path.  Does that not pretty much put us on the same path leading to the same destination?

 

If you take a step back and consider the whole plan, you will see that we are straining at gnats here.  If God is equally merciful and just in his judgment, how then do I have the advantage exactly?

Edited September 18, 2015 by pogi

[Zakuska]

Hello. Can't CFR for You but i remember reading somewhere on line about a tribe in the vicinity of the Holy Land whose name contained the root qain-...The group in question tattooed its face and forehead and were blacksmiths...the ethnonym may have been applied to them from the outside since local folklore held that they were indeed the descendants of Cain. They even had pictures of the group...late 19th century.

Something about that:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=KtTnQc5HULoC&pg=PT390&lpg=PT390&dq=qain+black+smith&source=bl&ots=px5TrI1uQi&sig=w3Xs_b0yc8wD3h05fCV4lowr8KU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAmoVChMI3KmR48KByAIVC12SCh3gLAOn#v=onepage&q=qain%20black%20smith&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vtj0wSsw1JcC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=qain+black+smith&source=bl&ots=5r38LyIUxo&sig=KRQ7ShMDdtJj4kncnpOgXP9RBi0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD0Q6AEwB2oVChMI3KmR48KByAIVC12SCh3gLAOn#v=onepage&q=qain%20black%20smith&f=false

 

DCP and Nibley make the "qain" connection...

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=1L4lCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=qain+black+smith&source=bl&ots=3NOP3HLLpJ&sig=qKI0FLhUmQ0mjpJ5Drt-cTmpsvE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwCGoVChMI3KmR48KByAIVC12SCh3gLAOn#v=onepage&q=qain%20black%20smith&f=false

 

So many possibilities with this one.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=GhwLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA867&lpg=PA867&dq=qain+black+smith&source=bl&ots=Npt2ozrnRc&sig=l-sRTj3v0EQFxitMt1-jbnHp1wM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEIQ6AEwCWoVChMI3KmR48KByAIVC12SCh3gLAOn#v=onepage&q=qain%20black%20smith&f=false

 

Forge, the Iron Hammer; gather what was dispersed.

 

Nephi the Blacksmith. Joseph the Gatherer. (Stick of Joseph)

 

Here it is:

 

Kenites

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=pI3SAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA514&lpg=PA514&dq=qain+tribe+of+arabic+black+smiths&source=bl&ots=vOl-LC9Yy5&sig=WilwQRa5a_nOZGB39ztfWnhpDqc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMIlZiCw8mByAIVBQOSCh0lVAVY#v=onepage&q=qain%20tribe%20of%20arabic%20black%20smiths&f=false

 

The Kenites were a nomadic tribe in the deserts south of Judah.

 

The mark of Yahweh borne by Kayin (Cain), the eponym ancestor of Kayin (the Kenites), according to Gen. iv. 15, which protected him from harm as he wandered about the land, indicates that from time immemorial the Kenites had the emblem of Yahweh tattooed upon them. If so, he must have been their ancestral god. In view of these facts it seems necessary to assume that Yahweh was originally the god of the Kenites, and that knowledge of him was first brought to Israel through Moses.  (Paton 1910 p.40-41)  

 

http://cannibalchristians.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-kenites-had-emblem-of-yahweh.html

 

Yahweh's mark was tatooed on their foreheads.  

 

 

 

The Rechabites, who were a clan of the Kenites, are mentioned in several important places in the Bible. The Kenites were a tribe or clan of semi-nomadic metalworkers, whose name is derived from the Aramaic word for "smith."

They believed they were the descendants of a man named "Kain." They had lived in the copper-rich districts of the Sinai and Seir. The Bible says that they also lived in the land of Canaan before Abraham arrived in Genesis 15:18-19.

<Snip>

 We know from archeological discoveries that certain Arab tribes worshiped Yahweh in ancient tribes. When Moses fled from Pharaoh he settled among Yahweh worshiping Arabic tribes. He took a wife, Zipporah, from among them. Jethro, the Father-in-Law of Moses, was a Kenite. This is clearly stated in Judges 1:16. (The Kenites at times dwelt in the land of the Midianites and even among the Amalakites, but were a distinct people from them. The Kenites confederated with the Midianites, but although they joined themselves to the Midianites, they were not descended from Midian.) 

 

http://aramaicherald.blogspot.com/2011/10/secret-of-jabezthe-mystery-of-kenite.html

Edited September 18, 2015 by Zakuska

[Gray]

I do not believe for one second that I am more likely to be saved than someone outside the church.  I do not believe that I am more righteous, more Christ-like, more humble, more charitable, more faithful to the light that I have been given than they are.  I am confident that there are many non-members far more advanced than I am spiritually speaking. 

 

The only advantage that I have is timing - which is a negligible advantage in the eternal grand scheme of things (especially considering that the first shall be last and the last shall be first  ). 

 

Yes, the one true path is better than all other paths, if that is what you are trying to get me to admit.  Does that make ME superior?  Absolutely not!  Because someone has not yet found the path, does not diminish from who they are or what they have done with the light they have been given.  They may be very well on the path to THE path.  Does that not pretty much put us on the same path leading to the same destination?

 

If you take a step back and consider the whole plan, you will see that we are straining at gnats here.  If God is equally merciful and just in his judgment, how then do I have the advantage exactly?

 

Well, I think we're talking about two different things here. Yes, you're right. Under LDS theology, anyone on any particular path may be exalted eventually. LDS theology doesn't teach that Mormons are superior, just that the LDS Church and its teachings/authority are superior, which is what I was talking about. 

 

So really we're halfway there. We're not damning the "infidels" to hell necessarily. But we still have that institutional superiority clashing with our ideal of personal humility. 

[Zakuska]

Joel 2:6

Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

 

All Sack Cloth and Ashes references as well.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Zakuska

[pogi]

So really we're halfway there. We're not damning the "infidels" to hell necessarily. But we still have that institutional superiority clashing with our ideal of personal humility. 

 

 

The idea that humility can only be found in acknowledging that all churches and faiths are equal in terms of authority and doctrine, is truly misguided.  Christ's original apostles showed that is indeed possible to be on the one true path, hold authority from God, proclaim a higher and better doctrine, and be humble at the same time. 

 

By making such a conclusion, one is bound to accuse Christ of instigating "institutional superiority" thereby destroying "personal humility" by establishing his church and evangelizing his doctrines above other faiths.  

Edited September 18, 2015 by pogi