Did Your Ward Have That Meeting About You Know, Marriage Things?

[DJBrown]

Telling indeed.  Just as telling that you would condemn a local Bishop who -- in your view -- violated Elder Packers nonsensical and unscriptural "rule."  Again, the Lloyd Law of Judgment is at work.  SLC = good.  Always.  No mistakes.  No miscalculation.  No insensitivity to non-US Saints.  And anyone who dares question what comes out of SLC is facing the wrong direction and on the road to apostasy!  

 

You are truly one of those Mormons who claims General Authorities are fallible, but you don't really believe it.  Just like the Catholics who claim the Pope is infallible, but don't really believe it.

 

These men are men.  And regardless of their calling they make missteps.  Simply recognizing that these men are in fact fallible, in no way diminishes their role.  In fact, I love the fact that God calls real men who are capable of messing up.  Makes me feel a bit better about my many shortcomings.

 

The men are fallible.  But their callings and authority are divine.  And as a result, I can be very sure that if I disagree with the brethren when they make stands like this, I am in the wrong.  If I have negative feelings towards them, I can be sure I need to repent.

 

We will never be wrong for following the prophets.  If we do not, we are playing Russian Roulette.  

 

It is never our place to decide when the prophets have made "missteps."  That is certainly an unpopular statements.  But believe it is true.

 

Christ made some pretty clear statements equating our acceptance of the prophets to our acceptance of Him.  I don't think that was a mistake.

[canard78]

I'll just add that during the buildup to the Iraq War I was in a Stake with a Bishop who was from Europe.  After President Hinckley gave his hawkish pro-war conference address that year, this Bishop made an explicit point during a 5th Sunday to emphasize that President Hinckley had only offered his opinion and that supporting the Iraq War was not incumbent on Latter-day Saints.

 

Always admired that Bishop.  And, as I'm sure Scott will point out, that fact is very "telling."

 

I can remember that talk very well. The chapel I was in when the talk was given gave a collective shudder. My mother, who was (and still is) a devout and faithful member was livid at his comments. It didn't stop her sustaining him as a prophet but she made it very clear that she didn't agree with his talk and sentiment and that she felt he had made a mistake in the choice of words he used.

[canard78]

I love the fact that Mormonmaniac keeps posting inflammatory one-liners and everyone just ignores it

 

Oops... I just stopped ignoring it... nevermind... carry on...

[Scott Lloyd]

I'll just add that during the buildup to the Iraq War I was in a Stake with a Bishop who was from Europe.  After President Hinckley gave his hawkish pro-war conference address that year, this Bishop made an explicit point during a 5th Sunday to emphasize that President Hinckley had only offered his opinion and that supporting the Iraq War was not incumbent on Latter-day Saints.

 

Always admired that Bishop.  And, as I'm sure Scott will point out, that fact is very "telling."

You didn't give a reference for this allegedly "hawkish" and "pro-war" talk, but I have taken the liberty of looking up what I think you are referring to. Rather than merely provide a link, I will paste in its entirety so that everyone here can read it in context:

 

 

My beloved brethren and sisters, I accept this opportunity in humility. I pray that I may be guided by the Spirit of the Lord in that which I say.

I have just been handed a note that says that a U.S. missile attack is under way. I need not remind you that we live in perilous times. I desire to speak concerning these times and our circumstances as members of this Church.

You are acutely aware of the events of September 11, less than a month ago. Out of that vicious and ugly attack we are plunged into a state of war. It is the first war of the 21st century. The last century has been described as the most war-torn in human history. Now we are off on another dangerous undertaking, the unfolding of which and the end thereof we do not know. For the first time since we became a nation, the United States has been seriously attacked on its mainland soil. But this was not an attack on the United States alone. It was an attack on men and nations of goodwill everywhere. It was well planned, boldly executed, and the results were disastrous. It is estimated that more than 5,000 innocent people died. Among these were many from other nations. It was cruel and cunning, an act of consummate evil.

Recently, in company with a few national religious leaders, I was invited to the White House to meet with the president. In talking to us he was frank and straightforward.

That same evening he spoke to the Congress and the nation in unmistakable language concerning the resolve of America and its friends to hunt down the terrorists who were responsible for the planning of this terrible thing and any who harbored such.

Now we are at war. Great forces have been mobilized and will continue to be. Political alliances are being forged. We do not know how long this conflict will last. We do not know what it will cost in lives and treasure. We do not know the manner in which it will be carried out. It could impact the work of the Church in various ways.

Our national economy has been made to suffer. It was already in trouble, and this has compounded the problem. Many are losing their employment. Among our own people, this could affect welfare needs and also the tithing of the Church. It could affect our missionary program.

We are now a global organization. We have members in more than 150 nations. Administering this vast worldwide program could conceivably become more difficult.

Those of us who are American citizens stand solidly with the president of our nation. The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions. This is not a matter of Christian against Muslim. I am pleased that food is being dropped to the hungry people of a targeted nation. We value our Muslim neighbors across the world and hope that those who live by the tenets of their faith will not suffer. I ask particularly that our own people do not become a party in any way to the persecution of the innocent. Rather, let us be friendly and helpful, protective and supportive. It is the terrorist organizations that must be ferreted out and brought down.

We of this Church know something of such groups. The Book of Mormon speaks of the Gadianton robbers, a vicious, oath-bound, and secret organization bent on evil and destruction. In their day they did all in their power, by whatever means available, to bring down the Church, to woo the people with sophistry, and to take control of the society. We see the same thing in the present situation.

We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization, just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of liberty (see Alma 48:10).

On the Larry King television broadcast the other night, I was asked what I think of those who, in the name of their religion, carry out such infamous activities. I replied, “Religion offers no shield for wickedness, for evil, for those kinds of things. The God in whom I believe does not foster this kind of action. He is a God of mercy. He is a God of love. He is a God of peace and reassurance, and I look to Him in times such as this as a comfort and a source of strength.”

Members of the Church in this and other nations are now involved with many others in a great international undertaking. On television we see those of the military leaving their loved ones, knowing not whether they will return. It is affecting the homes of our people. Unitedly, as a Church, we must get on our knees and invoke the powers of the Almighty in behalf of those who will carry the burdens of this campaign.

No one knows how long it will last. No one knows precisely where it will be fought. No one knows what it may entail before it is over. We have launched an undertaking the size and nature of which we cannot see at this time.

Occasions of this kind pull us up sharply to a realization that life is fragile, peace is fragile, civilization itself is fragile. The economy is particularly vulnerable. We have been counseled again and again concerning self-reliance, concerning debt, concerning thrift. So many of our people are heavily in debt for things that are not entirely necessary. When I was a young man, my father counseled me to build a modest home, sufficient for the needs of my family, and make it beautiful and attractive and pleasant and secure. He counseled me to pay off the mortgage as quickly as I could so that, come what may, there would be a roof over the heads of my wife and children. I was reared on that kind of doctrine. I urge you as members of this Church to get free of debt where possible and to have a little laid aside against a rainy day.

We cannot provide against every contingency. But we can provide against many contingencies. Let the present situation remind us that this we should do.

As we have been continuously counseled for more than 60 years, let us have some food set aside that would sustain us for a time in case of need. But let us not panic nor go to extremes. Let us be prudent in every respect. And, above all, my brothers and sisters, let us move forward with faith in the Living God and His Beloved Son.

Great are the promises concerning this land of America. We are told unequivocally that it “is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). This is the crux of the entire matter—obedience to the commandments of God.

The Constitution under which we live, and which has not only blessed us but has become a model for other constitutions, is our God-inspired national safeguard ensuring freedom and liberty, justice and equality before the law.

I do not know what the future holds. I do not wish to sound negative, but I wish to remind you of the warnings of scripture and the teachings of the prophets which we have had constantly before us.

I cannot forget the great lesson of Pharaoh’s dream of the fat and lean kine and of the full and withered stalks of corn.

I cannot dismiss from my mind the grim warnings of the Lord as set forth in the 24th chapter of Matthew.

I am familiar, as are you, with the declarations of modern revelation that the time will come when the earth will be cleansed and there will be indescribable distress, with weeping and mourning and lamentation (see D&C 112:24).

Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. There is so much of the Lord’s work yet to be done. We, and our children after us, must do it.

I can assure you that we who are responsible for the management of the affairs of the Church will be prudent and careful as we have tried to be in the past. The tithes of the Church are sacred. They are appropriated in the manner set forth by the Lord Himself. We have become a very large and complex organization. We carry on many extensive and costly programs. But I can assure you that we will not exceed our income. We will not place the Church in debt. We will tailor what we do to the resources that are available.

How grateful I am for the law of tithing. It is the Lord’s law of finance. It is set forth in a few words in the 119th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. It comes of His wisdom. To every man and woman, to every boy and girl, to every child in this Church who pays an honest tithing, be it large or small, I express gratitude for the faith that is in your hearts. I remind you, and those who do not pay tithing but who should, that the Lord has promised marvelous blessings (see Mal. 3:10–12). He has also promised that “he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming” (D&C 64:23).

I express appreciation to those who pay a fast offering. This costs the giver nothing other than going without two meals a month. It becomes the backbone of our welfare program, designed to assist those in distress.

Now, all of us know that war, contention, hatred, suffering of the worst kind are not new. The conflict we see today is but another expression of the conflict that began with the War in Heaven. I quote from the book of Revelation:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

“And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ” (Rev. 12:7–10).

That must have been a terrible conflict. The forces of evil were pitted against the forces of good. The great deceiver, the son of the morning, was defeated and banished, and took with him a third of the hosts of heaven.

The book of Moses and the book of Abraham shed further light concerning this great contest. Satan would have taken from man his agency and taken unto himself all credit and honor and glory. Opposed to this was the plan of the Father which the Son said He would fulfill, under which He came to earth and gave His life to atone for the sins of mankind.

From the day of Cain to the present, the adversary has been the great mastermind of the terrible conflicts that have brought so much suffering.

Treachery and terrorism began with him. And they will continue until the Son of God returns to rule and reign with peace and righteousness among the sons and daughters of God.

Through centuries of time, men and women, so very, very many, have lived and died. Some may die in the conflict that lies ahead. To us, and we bear solemn testimony of this, death will not be the end. There is life beyond this as surely as there is life here. Through the great plan which became the very essence of the War in Heaven, men shall go on living.

Job asked, “If a man die, shall he live again?” (Job 14:14). He replied: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

“And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

“Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another” (Job 19:25–27).

Now, brothers and sisters, we must do our duty, whatever that duty might be. Peace may be denied for a season. Some of our liberties may be curtailed. We may be inconvenienced. We may even be called on to suffer in one way or another. But God our Eternal Father will watch over this nation and all of the civilized world who look to Him. He has declared, “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord” (Ps. 33:12). Our safety lies in repentance. Our strength comes of obedience to the commandments of God.

Let us be prayerful. Let us pray for righteousness. Let us pray for the forces of good. Let us reach out to help men and women of goodwill, whatever their religious persuasion and wherever they live. Let us stand firm against evil, both at home and abroad. Let us live worthy of the blessings of heaven, reforming our lives where necessary and looking to Him, the Father of us all. He has said, “Be still, and know that I am God” (Ps. 46:10).

Are these perilous times? They are. But there is no need to fear. We can have peace in our hearts and peace in our homes. We can be an influence for good in this world, every one of us.

May the God of heaven, the Almighty, bless us, help us, as we walk our various ways in the uncertain days that lie ahead. May we look to Him with unfailing faith. May we worthily place our reliance on His Beloved Son who is our great Redeemer, whether it be in life or in death, is my prayer in His holy name, even the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 

 

 

A couple of things strike me about the context of this address:

 

For one thing, President Hinckley had just been handed a note advising him of an alarming development. I remember quite clearly that moment. We were all on edge, and were in urgent need of comforting and guiding words from the Lord's spokesman.

 

For another thing, this was less than a month after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center towers in New York City, a despicable act that shocked and appalled people throughout the free world.

 

I have just returned from a visit to New York City, where I had occasion for the first time to view the 9-11 memorial museum. Though it's 14 years in the past now, I was utterly sickened at the reminder of the hideous carnage and misery of that day caused by pure wickedness and evil.

 

That said, I have read through President Hinckley's address and see nothing of the "hawkishness" or war-mongering of which he stands accused here. I see, rather, words of comfort and exhortation to righteousness and faithfulness that one would expect to come from a prophet of God in a time of alarm, especially one who must have had a clear memory of the dark days of World War II.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I love the fact that Mormonmaniac keeps posting inflammatory one-liners and everyone just ignores it

 

Oops... I just stopped ignoring it... nevermind... carry on...

Not so sure they are inflammatory or that people are ignoring him. Oh well.

 

Are you saying thing are inflammatory because you don't agree with them?

Edited July 8, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[sethpayne]

The men are fallible.  But their callings and authority are divine.  And as a result, I can be very sure that if I disagree with the brethren when they make stands like this, I am in the wrong.  If I have negative feelings towards them, I can be sure I need to repent.

 

We will never be wrong for following the prophets.  If we do not, we are playing Russian Roulette.  

 

It is never our place to decide when the prophets have made "missteps."  That is certainly an unpopular statements.  But believe it is true.

 

Christ made some pretty clear statements equating our acceptance of the prophets to our acceptance of Him.  I don't think that was a mistake.

 

Hey DJ -- I do understand where you are coming from.  However, I think that as LDS, we sometimes go well past recognizing and respecting the divine calling to a point of placing these men on a pedestal.  Jesus called humble followers and I believe that the GAs are doing their very best to fulfill their callings.  Just like the Canadian bishop.  

 

I would say that publicly shaming a Canadian bishop for being frustrated that Canada is treated as an appendage to the US, falls into the latter category.  not the former.

 

As to whether we'll go "wrong" by simply following the GAs .... I do disagree.  The Lord gave us the Spirit for a reason and I think that some folks in southern Utah in 1857 would have done well to ignore the counsel of their leaders.  I also think it is a shame more Saints didn't stand up to BY and correct his false Adam-God doctrine.

[sethpayne]

You didn't give a reference for this allegedly "hawkish" and "pro-war" talk, but I have taken the liberty of looking up what I think you are referring to. Rather than merely provide a link, I will paste in its entirety so that everyone here can read it in context:

 

 

A couple of things strike me about the context of this address:

 

For one thing, President Hinckley had just been handed a note advising him of an alarming development. I remember quite clearly that moment. We were all on edge, and were in urgent need of comforting and guiding words from the Lord's spokesman.

 

For another thing, this was less than a month after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center towers in New York City, a despicable act that shocked and appalled people throughout the free world.

 

I have just returned from a visit to New York City, where I had occasion for the first time to view the 9-11 memorial museum. Though it's 14 years in the past now, I was utterly sickened at the reminder of the hideous carnage and misery of that day caused by pure wickedness and evil.

 

That said, I have read through President Hinckley's address and see nothing of the "hawkishness" or war-mongering of which he stands accused here. I see, rather, words of comfort and exhortation to righteousness and faithfulness that one would expect to come from a prophet of God in a time of alarm, especially one who must have had a clear memory of the dark days of World War II.

 

I think you are conflating is October 2002 address with the April 2003 address.  IIRC, it as at the 2002 address that the US had just begun the war in Afghanistan.

[sethpayne]

 

That said, I have read through President Hinckley's address and see nothing of the "hawkishness" or war-mongering of which he stands accused here. I see, rather, words of comfort and exhortation to righteousness and faithfulness that one would expect to come from a prophet of God in a time of alarm, especially one who must have had a clear memory of the dark days of World War II.

 

Also -- can you cite where I accused President Hinckley of "warmongering?"  I'd appreciate you retracting that, please.

 

You should have quoted his 2003 talk:

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/war-and-peace?lang=eng

 

There are other mothers, innocent civilians, who cling to their children with fear and look heavenward with desperate pleadings as the earth shakes beneath their feet and deadly rockets scream through the dark sky.

 

 

Indeed.  How many Iraqi civilians died?  Well over 3000 that's for sure.

 

There have been casualties in this terrible conflict, and there likely will be more. 

 

 

Given that this was just a few weeks after the war started, President Hinckley was right on here.  Thousands more -- both guilty and innocent -- would die.

 

But as citizens we are all under the direction of our respective national leaders. They have access to greater political and military intelligence than do the people generally. Those in the armed services are under obligation to their respective governments to execute the will of the sovereign. When they joined the military service, they entered into a contract by which they are presently bound and to which they have dutifully responded.

 

 

They certainly do!  And they also manipulated it for their own purposes. 

 

In a democracy we can renounce war and proclaim peace. There is opportunity for dissent. Many have been speaking out and doing so emphatically. That is their privilege. That is their right, so long as they do so legally. However, we all must also be mindful of another overriding responsibility, which I may add, governs my personal feelings and dictates my personal loyalties in the present situation.

 

 

Sounds like President Hinckley was definitely a hawk.  But what is that loyalty President Hinkley speaks of?

 

It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression.

 

 

I would very much agree with this.

This places us in the position of those who long for peace, who teach peace, who work for peace, but who also are citizens of nations and are subject to the laws of our governments. Furthermore, we are a freedom-loving people, committed to the defense of liberty wherever it is in jeopardy. I believe that God will not hold men and women in uniform responsible as agents of their government in carrying forward that which they are legally obligated to do. It may even be that He will hold us responsible if we try to impede or hedge up the way of those who are involved in a contest with forces of evil and repression.

 

Now, there is much that we can and must do in these perilous times. We can give our opinions on the merits of the situation as we see it, but never let us become a party to words or works of evil concerning our brothers and sisters in various nations on one side or the other. Political differences never justify hatred or ill will. I hope that the Lord’s people may be at peace one with another during times of trouble, regardless of what loyalties they may have to different governments or parties.

 

 

Do you think President Hinckley would be OK with us speaking ill of the people who manipulated intelligence and pushed through govt. contracts in Iraq without bid?  

[Scott Lloyd]

I think you are conflating is October 2002 address with the April 2003 address.  IIRC, it as at the 2002 address that the US had just begun the war in Afghanistan.

OK, here's the one from April 2003. I don't see anything very warlike or belligerent in this one either. Just the opposite, in fact. See the part I emphasized in boldface.

 

 

My brethren and sisters, last Sunday as I sat in my study thinking of what I might say on this occasion, I received a phone call telling me that Staff Sergeant James W. Cawley of the U.S. Marines had been killed somewhere in Iraq. He was 41 years of age, leaving behind a wife and two small children.

Twenty years ago Elder Cawley was a missionary of the Church in Japan. Like so many others, he had grown up in the Church, had played as a schoolboy, had passed the sacrament as a deacon, and had been found worthy to serve a mission, to teach the gospel of peace to the people of Japan. He returned home, served in the Marines, married, became a policeman, and was then recalled to active military duty, to which he responded without hesitation.

His life, his mission, his military service, his death seem to represent the contradictions of the peace of the gospel and the tides of war.

And so I venture to say something about the war and the gospel we teach. I spoke of this somewhat in our October conference of 2001. When I came to this pulpit at that time, the war against terrorism had just begun. The present war is really an outgrowth and continuation of that conflict. Hopefully it is now drawing to a conclusion.

As I discuss the matter, I seek the direction of the Holy Spirit. I have prayed and pondered much concerning this. I recognize it is a very sensitive subject for an international congregation, including those not of our religious faith.

The nations of the earth have been divided over the present situation. Feelings have run strong. There have been demonstrations for and against. We are now a world Church with members in most of the nations which have argued this matter. Our people have had feelings. They have had concerns.

War, of course, is not new. The weapons change. The ability to kill and destroy is constantly refined. But there has been conflict throughout the ages over essentially the same issues.

The book of Revelation speaks briefly of what must have been a terrible conflict for the minds and loyalties of God’s children. The account is worth repeating:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

“And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him” (Rev. 12:7–9).

Isaiah speaks further concerning that great conflict (see Isa. 14:12–20). Modern revelation gives additional light (see D&C 76:25–29), as does the book of Moses (see Moses 4:1–4), which tells of Satan’s plan to destroy the agency of man.

We sometimes are prone to glorify the great empires of the past, such as the Ottoman Empire, the Roman and Byzantine Empires, and in more recent times, the vast British Empire. But there is a darker side to every one of them. There is a grim and tragic overlay of brutal conquest, of subjugation, of repression, and an astronomical cost in life and treasure.

The great English essayist Thomas Carlyle once ironically shared the observation, “God must needs laugh outright, could such a thing be, to see his wondrous mannikins here below” (quoted in Sartor Resartus [1836], 182). I think our Father in Heaven must have wept as He has looked down upon His children through the centuries as they have squandered their divine birthright in ruthlessly destroying one another.

In the course of history tyrants have arisen from time to time who have oppressed their own people and threatened the world. Such is adjudged to be the case presently, and consequently great and terrifying forces with sophisticated and fearsome armaments have been engaged in battle.

Many of our own Church members have been involved in this conflict. We have seen on television and in the press tearful children clinging to their fathers in uniform, going to the battlefront.

In a touching letter I received just this week, a mother wrote of her Marine son who is serving for the second time in a Middle Eastern war. She says that at the time of his first deployment, “he came home on leave and asked me to go for a walk. … He had his arm around me and he told me about going to war. He … said, ‘Mom, I have to go so you and the family can be free, free to worship as you please. … And if it costs me my life … then giving my life is worth it.’”He is now there again and has written to his family recently, saying, “I am proud to be here serving my nation and our way of life. … I feel a lot safer knowing our Heavenly Father is with me.”

There are other mothers, innocent civilians, who cling to their children with fear and look heavenward with desperate pleadings as the earth shakes beneath their feet and deadly rockets scream through the dark sky.

There have been casualties in this terrible conflict, and there likely will be more. Public protests will likely continue. Leaders of other nations have, in no uncertain terms, condemned the coalition strategy.

The question arises, “Where does the Church stand in all of this?”

First, let it be understood that we have no quarrel with the Muslim people or with those of any other faith. We recognize and teach that all the people of the earth are of the family of God. And as He is our Father, so are we brothers and sisters with family obligations one to another.

But as citizens we are all under the direction of our respective national leaders. They have access to greater political and military intelligence than do the people generally. Those in the armed services are under obligation to their respective governments to execute the will of the sovereign. When they joined the military service, they entered into a contract by which they are presently bound and to which they have dutifully responded.

One of our Articles of Faith, which represent an expression of our doctrine, states, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law” (A of F 1:12).

But modern revelation states that we are to “renounce war and proclaim peace” (D&C 98:16).

In a democracy we can renounce war and proclaim peace. There is opportunity for dissent. Many have been speaking out and doing so emphatically. That is their privilege. That is their right, so long as they do so legally. However, we all must also be mindful of another overriding responsibility, which I may add, governs my personal feelings and dictates my personal loyalties in the present situation.

When war raged between the Nephites and the Lamanites, the record states that “the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for … power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

“And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God” (Alma 43:45–46).

The Lord counseled them, “Defend your families even unto bloodshed” (Alma 43:47).

And Moroni “rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

“And he fastened on his headplate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren” (Alma 46:12–13).

It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression.

When all is said and done, we of this Church are people of peace. We are followers of our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the Prince of Peace. But even He said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matt. 10:34).

This places us in the position of those who long for peace, who teach peace, who work for peace, but who also are citizens of nations and are subject to the laws of our governments. Furthermore, we are a freedom-loving people, committed to the defense of liberty wherever it is in jeopardy. I believe that God will not hold men and women in uniform responsible as agents of their government in carrying forward that which they are legally obligated to do. It may even be that He will hold us responsible if we try to impede or hedge up the way of those who are involved in a contest with forces of evil and repression.

Now, there is much that we can and must do in these perilous times. We can give our opinions on the merits of the situation as we see it, but never let us become a party to words or works of evil concerning our brothers and sisters in various nations on one side or the other. Political differences never justify hatred or ill will. I hope that the Lord’s people may be at peace one with another during times of trouble, regardless of what loyalties they may have to different governments or parties.

Let us pray for those who are called upon to bear arms by their respective governments and plead for the protection of heaven upon them that they may return to their loved ones in safety.

To our brothers and sisters in harm’s way, we say that we pray for you. We pray that the Lord will watch over you and preserve you from injury and that you may return home and pick up your lives again. We know that you are not in that land of blowing sand and brutal heat because you enjoy the games of war. The strength of your commitment is measured by your willingness to give your very lives for that in which you believe.

We know that some have died, and others may yet die in this hot and deadly contest. We can do all in our power to comfort and bless those who lose loved ones. May those who mourn be comforted with that comfort which comes alone from Christ the Redeemer. It was He who said to His beloved disciples:

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

“In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, … that where I am, there ye may be also.

“Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid” (John 14:1–3, 27).

We call upon the Lord, whose strength is mighty and whose powers are infinite, to bring an end to the conflict, an end that will result in a better life for all concerned. The Lord has declared, “For I, the Lord, rule in the heavens above, and among the armies of the earth” (D&C 60:4).

We can hope and pray for that glorious day foretold by the prophet Isaiah when men “shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isa. 2:4).

Even in an evil world we can so live our lives as to merit the protecting care of our Father in Heaven. We can be as the righteous living among the evils of Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham pleaded that these cities might be spared for the sake of the righteous. (See Gen. 18:20–32.)

And, above all, we can cultivate in our own hearts, and proclaim to the world, the salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through His atoning sacrifice we are certain life will continue beyond the veil of death. We can teach that gospel which will lead to the exaltation of the obedient.

Even when the armaments of war ring out in deathly serenade and darkness and hatred reign in the hearts of some, there stands immovable, reassuring, comforting, and with great outreaching love the quiet figure of the Son of God, the Redeemer of the world. We can proclaim with Paul:

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

“Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38–39).

This life is but a chapter in the eternal plan of our Father. It is full of conflict and seeming incongruities. Some die young. Some live to old age. We cannot explain it. But we accept it with the certain knowledge that through the atoning sacrifice of our Lord we shall all go on living, and this with the comforting assurance of His immeasurable love.

He has said, “Learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit, and you shall have peace in me” (D&C 19:23).

And there, my brothers and sisters, we rest our faith. Regardless of the circumstances, we have the comfort and peace of Christ our Savior, our Redeemer, the living Son of the living God. I so testify in His holy name, even the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 

 

[sethpayne]

Who said President Hinkley was belligerent?

[Scott Lloyd]

Who said President Hinkley was belligerent?

Oh, something about adjectives like "hawkish"and "pro-war" tends to convey that connotation.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[sethpayne]

Oh, something about adjectives like "hawkish"and "pro-war" tend to convey that connotation.

 

Oh so nobody said it.

 

So that's two words you have put in my mouth.  Looking for 2 retractions now.  

 

And as a journalist I'm surprised you don't understand that the term "hawk' doesn't carry negative connotations.  "Chickenhawk" sure does.  But not hawk.  Hawkishness merely describes a certain view of foreign policy.  In many regards I am a hawk.

 

Also, "pro-war" is a statement of fact, and carries no positive nor negative connotation.  President Hinkley was clear in favor of the Iraq war.  Therefore, pro-war.  I too would describe myself as pro-war in many circumstances.

[Scott Lloyd]

Oh so nobody said it.

 

So that's two words you have put in my mouth.  Looking for 2 retractions now.  

 

And as a journalist I'm surprised you don't understand that the term "hawk' doesn't carry negative connotations.  "Chickenhawk" sure does.  But not hawk.  Hawkishness merely describes a certain view of foreign policy.  In many regards I am a hawk.

 

Also, "pro-war" is a statement of fact, and carries no positive nor negative connotation.  President Hinkley was clear in favor of the Iraq war.  Therefore, pro-war.  I too would describe myself as pro-war in many circumstances.

To say a prophet of God is "pro-war" and "hawkish" is rather serious allegation when the scriptural commandment (which President Hinckley himself cited) is to "renounce war and proclaim peace."

 

I think mine was a reasonable reading of what you said. I merely used synonyms. I retract nothing.

 

Of course you are welcome to backpedal clarify.

[rongo]

I'm doing my meetings this Sunday. Bishopric will split up and cover RS, YW, and YM at the beginning of third hour, and MP quorums after those. We will offer a chance for comments or questions. We will talk to primary teachers separately.

 

What we're doing that's perhaps different is mailing copies to members who don't come to Church, along with a letter from the bishopric. This is for two reasons:

 

1) Letters like this are special and important. This is an opportunity for contact, and in some instances, some members might be offended or angered and will come out of the woodwork.

 

2) Returned letters with yellow forwarding labels allow us to send membership records for people who are not in the ward.

 

Two birds with one stone!

[sethpayne]

To say a prophet of God is "pro-war" and "hawkish" is rather serious allegation when the scriptural commandment (which President Hinckley himself cited) is to "renounce war and proclaim peace."

 

I think mine was a reasonable reading of what you said. I merely used synonyms. I retract nothing.

 

Of course you are welcome to backpedal clarify.

 

Why would you bear false witness like that, Scott?  

 

In the case of the Iraq War President Hinckley was pro-war and hawkish.  His talk spells it out quite plainly!  It isn't an "allegation" in any sense of the word.  

 

So again, please retract your false claims that I said President Hinckley was belligerent and warmongering.  

[Scott Lloyd]

Why would you bear false witness like that, Scott?  

 

In the case of the Iraq War President Hinckley was pro-war and hawkish.  His talk spells it out quite plainly!  It isn't an "allegation" in any sense of the word.  

 

So again, please retract your false claims that I said President Hinckley was belligerent and warmongering.  

This conversation is finished.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm doing my meetings this Sunday. Bishopric will split up and cover RS, YW, and YM at the beginning of third hour, and MP quorums after those. We will offer a chance for comments or questions. We will talk to primary teachers separately.

 

What we're doing that's perhaps different is mailing copies to members who don't come to Church, along with a letter from the bishopric. This is for two reasons:

 

1) Letters like this are special and important. This is an opportunity for contact, and in some instances, some members might be offended or angered and will come out of the woodwork.

 

2) Returned letters with yellow forwarding labels allow us to send membership records for people who are not in the ward.

 

Two birds with one stone!

Shrewd!

[SmileyMcGee]

Here's a link that I cited in a post here four weeks ago. Here's a copy-and-paste:

Here's a link to my post from four weeks ago.

"Legitimate, concrete examples" abound for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Exactly. Much of the "assault on religious freedom" is typically only seen through eyes that are biased towards religious favoritism, not religious freedom. I look forward studying up on these "examples" to see if it is freedom and not favoritism that is being challenged. Edited July 9, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[SmileyMcGee]

The men are fallible. But their callings and authority are divine. And as a result, I can be very sure that if I disagree with the brethren when they make stands like this, I am in the wrong. If I have negative feelings towards them, I can be sure I need to repent.

We will never be wrong for following the prophets. If we do not, we are playing Russian Roulette.

It is never our place to decide when the prophets have made "missteps." That is certainly an unpopular statements. But believe it is true.

Christ made some pretty clear statements equating our acceptance of the prophets to our acceptance of Him. I don't think that was a mistake.

You're just choosing to trust in the arm of someone else's flesh than your own, but you are still trusting in men. Who says the prophets callings are divine? The men who are prophets. Who said Jesus equated accepting prophets with accepting him? The men who are prophets. Who says it is not our place to determine missteps of the prophets? The men who are prophets. you don't think there's a bit of conflict of interest when prophets counsel members regarding the importance of prophets? Perhaps your own thoughts and feelings may be useful... Edited July 9, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[Scott Lloyd]

Exactly. Much of the "assault on religious freedom" is typically only seen through eyes that are biased towards religious favoritism, not religious freedom. I look forward studying up on these "examples" to see if it is freedom and not favoritism that is being challenged.

Part of the assault on religious freedom is to deny that it is taking place when it clearly is. It should hardly be surprising that the enemies of religious freedom would behave in such a manner. It's called propaganda.

[SmileyMcGee]

Part of the assault on religious freedom is to deny that it is taking place when it clearly is. It should hardly be surprising that the enemies of religious freedom would behave in such a manner. It's called propaganda.

which is what you would say if you've convinced yourself that such an attack exists. I guess it's a matter of interpretation.

Edited July 9, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[canard78]

This conversation is finished.

Classic Scott Lloyd approach when he knows he's lost an argument.

[sethpayne]

This conversation is finished.

 

Hmmm....  Well then I guess I'll get the last word in.

 

http://bfy.tw/j4M