mfbukowski Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 "Intelligent Design" I really don't know why people find this SO HARD. Science is about objective evidence. There is no way to define what is or is not "designed" objectively. There exists no thesis of the following kind: "For any phenomenon, x, to scientifically showr that x was 'designed' these criteria must obtain:A- some descriptionB- another descriptionC- etc as needed" For such a thesis to exist, we would have to have a satisfactory scientific definition of "consciousness" yet it has been proven that such a description cannot be made- this was done by Thomas Nagel. If this is correct, intelligent design could never be proven scientifically.
thesometimesaint Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) I often hear this claim, but entropy is always and everywhere operative in the absolute sense. The universe is a closed system, and will progressively disperse and disorganize, just as it has since the first millesecond of the Big Bang, and just as all natural systems must. This is true of all organized systems, despite energy inputs from whatever source. It is true of a watch created by a watchmaker, which immediately begins to deteriorate and run down from the moment of its creation. Just as a newborn baby immediately begins to deteriorate and age from the moment of its conception. All organized systems, organic and inorganic, begin to die at the moment of their inception. There are ways of designing automated systems of repair and renewal, whether biological or mechanical, but all must eventually fail, just as there are no true perpetual motion machines. There are no known exceptions to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. No spontaneous generators of life have ever been observed. There must ever be an intelligent designer to create systems which can temporarily operate outside of entropy. Even then entropy always eventually prevails. We do not understand how "intellgences" can function outside that Law, how they can both be indestructible and eternal. We do not know how a glorified human might function outside that Law. Thus far, we only partially understand the absolutely limited nature of temporal systems based on natural, physical laws. Our planet is not in a closed system in the finite sense of our solar system. We get all the energy we need from the sun. Yes our universe is a closed system as far as we Know. You are leaving out the factor of time. That being said it will take a very longtime for our universe to isentrope to just above absolute zero. In about 100,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now the protons that make up matter will dissolve. More than enough time for lots to happen. Abiogenesis is not spontaneous generation Spontaneous generation of life is impossible with the known science. No scientist claims it will happen. No known mechanism of science allows for temporal systems to exist forever. So science doesn't put such into the equations. What if anything the Gods did or didn't do is beyond the self imposed restrictions of science. As I said I have no problem with God using science in the Creation of us and our world/universe. Edited December 27, 2014 by thesometimesaint
thesometimesaint Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) Now all we have to do is wait for a fortuitous lab accident to complete the process. No fortuitous accident is needed. Just simple chemicals combined in the right process. Edited December 27, 2014 by thesometimesaint
ERayR Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 No fortuitous accident is needed. Just simple chemicals combined in the right process. It would have to be an accident to reproduce that first random act of nature. Otherwise it is ID.
thesometimesaint Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 It would have to be an accident to reproduce that first random act of nature. Otherwise it is ID. Post Hoc Ergo Promtor Hoc.SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument
Robert F. Smith Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Our planet is not in a closed system in the finite sense of our solar system. We get all the energy we need from the sun. Yes our universe is a closed system as far as we Know. You are leaving out the factor of time. That being said it will take a very longtime for our universe to isentrope to just above absolute zero. In about 100,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years from now the protons that make up matter will dissolve. More than enough time for lots to happen.We appear to agree here. Abiogenesis is not spontaneous generation Spontaneous generation of life is impossible with the known science. No scientist claims it will happen.You are quite wrong here. Some evolutionary biologists not only attempt to create the lab conditions for spontaneous generation of life, but most of them believe that it has happened at least once on Earth, and perhaps on other planets. Some believe that life is a common thing throughout the universe. No known mechanism of science allows for temporal systems to exist forever. So science doesn't put such into the equations. What if anything the Gods did or didn't do is beyond the self imposed restrictions of science. As I said I have no problem with God using science in the Creation of us and our world/universe.I agree, although I don't accept that the restrictions on science are self-imposed. By its very nature, under current conditions, science has limits -- which change through time.
thesometimesaint Posted December 28, 2014 Posted December 28, 2014 Abiogenesis isn't Spontaneous Generation.SEE http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/spontaneous-generation.html Of necessity science must limit itself to matter and energy. To say nothing of God is not to say God is nothing. Individual scientists can believe or not believe as they choose.
Recommended Posts