Love The Sinner And Hate The Sin?

[Investigating]

I've often heard it said that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner; but is there anything in the Bible or latter day revelation to really indicate that that's true?

And what about the devil?

I've heard some people say that God loves him, or that He loved him at one time, and I seem to recall something about heaven weeping over him somewhere in D&C or the POGP (but I can't remember where?)

Is there anything in latter day revelation to suggest that God loves (or loved) the devil?

[Buzzard]

From the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants:

 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

 26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

 27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

Kind of sounds like the same reaction that many in the church would have if an apostle rebelled and was excommunicated for apostasy.  I think it is safe to say that The Father was deeply saddened at the rebellion of one of his "inner circle" (not sure if that's an accurate description of Lucifer's position before his fall, but that's my best guess).

[Investigating]

From the 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants:

 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

 26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

 27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

Kind of sounds like the same reaction that many in the church would have if an apostle rebelled and was excommunicated for apostasy.  I think it is safe to say that The Father was deeply saddened at the rebellion of one of his "inner circle" (not sure if that's an accurate description of Lucifer's position before his fall, but that's my best guess).

 

Thank you.

 

That's the passage I was thinking of.

 

But it says "the heavens wept over him," not that God did.

 

As you said

 

Kind of sounds like the same reaction that many in the church would have if an apostle rebelled and was excommunicated for apostasy.

 

So maybe it was just fellow angels (spirit brothers and sisters, some of whom had perhaps been less than valient, and had almost listened to him) who wept over him?

 

Is there anything that indicates how Heavenly Father Himself felt (or feels)?

[Tsuzuki]

And what about the devil?

I've heard some people say that God loves him, or that He loved him at one time, and I seem to recall something about heaven weeping over him somewhere in D&C or the POGP (but I can't remember where?)

Is there anything in latter day revelation to suggest that God loves (or loved) the devil?

If by "the devil" you mean Lucifer, I believe he's the Holy Ghost. (See the original Greek and Latin versions of 2 Peter 1:19.)

[Investigating]

If by "the devil" you mean Lucifer, I believe he's the Holy Ghost. (See the original Greek and Latin versions of 2 Peter 1:19.)

 

My question was directed to LDS.

 

You're not LDS, are you?

 

The LDS don't believe what you say you believe here, do they?

[Tsuzuki]

My question was directed to LDS.

 

You're not LDS, are you?

 

The LDS don't believe what you say you believe here, do they?

I'm currently an inactive heretic, but I could go back to full activity at any time without changing any of my views. If you want any kind of official position, here probably isn't the place to ask. Individual Mormons are allowed wide latitudes of personal belief, and I take advantage of that like no one else.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Tsuzuki

[Investigating]

I'm currently an inactive heretic, but I could go back to full activity at any time without changing any of my views.

 

I doubt you could go back to full activity without changing your stated view here:

 

If by "the devil" you mean Lucifer, I believe he's the Holy Ghost. (See the original Greek and Latin versions of 2 Peter 1:19.)

[Tsuzuki]

I doubt you could go back to full activity without changing your stated view here:

It's the view I had when I was a fully active believer, and is one of things that has changed the least about my beliefs over time.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Tsuzuki

[Investigating]

You said you're currently an "inactive heretic," and you're derailing this thread by trying to inject an opinion most Mormons would clearly reject as something totally alien to anything they were taught or believe.

 

Again, my question is directed to LDS believers (not disciples of Aleister Crowely.)

 

Is there anything in the standard works, or the writings and teachings of Joseph Smith, that in any way implies that we can't hate the devil and his angels, and actually look forward to seeing them punished as they deserve?

 

Is there anything that suggests that God Himself doesn't hate them, and look forward to inflicting punishment on them?

 

In short, is there any truth to this idea that we should always "hate the sin but love the sinner," or is it just a sectarian notion?

Edited September 19, 2014 by Investigating

[Tsuzuki]

Again, my question is directed to LDS believers (not disciples of Aleister Crowely.)

You can be both, but I'll stop derailing, as my view is clearly in the minority. However, it seemed like a no-brainer to me as a young Mormon.

 

You are derailing too often. Do not insert your beliefs about satan into another thread.

[The Nehor]

Loving the devil is probably pointless. We can mourn what he and his followers once were and losing them but there is nothing left to love in a devil. God creates a place where they can be as happy as they can be which is not very and limits their fall to that point. A final mercy for those who will allow God to do nothing else for them.

We have to love everyone because embodied spirits on this world rarely fall that far and those few who do can't be picked out of a crowd anyways.

[Buzzard]

I think that our Father in Heaven, as the literal father of all his spirit sons and daughters, loves each of them individually, and mourns their rejection of his mercy and the Great Plan of Happiness, even including the hosts that did not abide their first estate.  

That does not change the consequences of their rebellion, however. 

[Investigating]

I think that our Father in Heaven, as the literal father of all his spirit sons and daughters, loves each of them individually, and mourns their rejection of his mercy and the Great Plan of Happiness, even including the hosts that did not abide their first estate...

 

Than why does David count the hatred of God's enemies as a virtue?

 

"Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies." Psalm 139:21-22.

 

I think it was actually Augustine (in commenting on this verse) who came up with "hate the sin, and love the sinner," but is that how God really looks at it?

 

 

That does not change the consequences of their rebellion, however.

 

Perhaps, but that's not the question.

 

The question is whether it's right to assume (as you do) that God loves them, and mourns their loss.

 

I don't really know of anything in scripture or latter day revelation that supports this view, and I can think of things (like the above passage from the Psalms) that would seem to suggest that God hates the devil, his angels, and all unrepentant sinners (and that we should.)

 

That He even looks forward to punishing them (and that we should look forward to seeing it.)

 

If there is anything in the standard works (or the recorded sermons and sayings of Joseph Smith) that would contradict this view (and support the more popular view that God really loves everyone, and hates having to punish even the most vile and unrepentant sinners) please show it to me.

 

Thank you.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Investigating

[Investigating]

Is this true?

The statement ‘love the sinner but hate the sin” is just one of many lies being spread by this new Milquetoast Christianity.   It is not in the Bible at all- no one uttered those words or those sentiments. God literally hated the sinner too sometimes. Certain sins made him angrier than others. This statement is not biblical in any sense I see. It is, in fact, contradictory to what God does. God is shown, quite a few times in the Old Testament, to hate the people themselves.

http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin-thats-not-what-god-or-jesus-do/

 

Is there anything in Latter Day revelation to contradict this?

[Tsuzuki]

These may be relevant.

 

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

- Matthew 5:43-48

 

"My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened.
Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.
I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.
And him that repenteth not of his sins, and confesseth them not, ye shall bring before the church, and do with him as the scripture saith unto you, either by commandment or by revelation.
And this ye shall do that God may be glorified—not because ye forgive not, having not compassion, but that ye may be justified in the eyes of the law, that ye may not offend him who is your lawgiver—"

- D&C 64:8-13

 

So it would seem from these passages that God does indeed love the sinner, but hate the sin, and that His punishments are corrective and based on the demands of justice, rather than punitive and out of malice.

[Tsuzuki]

Than why does David count the hatred of God's enemies as a virtue?

Probably the same reason why he had Uriah killed, 'cause he was an a**hole.

 

Really? After yesterday, you are suspended.

[california boy]

The concept of love the sinner hate the sin is not bad in and of itself.  Unfortunately every time I have heard the phrase, it is followed by a rant and condemnation that spews hatred more than love.  If we are trying to be more Christlike in our lives, perhaps studying carefully the life of Christ and how he treated the sinners that surrounded him.  If your love of those that sin is in line with the spirit and feeling of the examples of Christ, then there is no need for platitudes to excuse your bad behavior.

 

"As I have loved you, love one another"  should be our guiding rod.