Helen47 Posted August 11, 2014 Author Posted August 11, 2014 If Ritner and other scholars are right then "revealed truths" are only wishful thinking or delusion.
why me Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Some fun facts about Ritner: http://nelc.uchicago.edu/faculty/ritner Robert K. Ritner is Professor of Egyptology at the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago and was from 1991-1996 the first Marilyn M. Simpson Assistant Professor of Egyptology at Yale University. Dr. Ritner is the author of the books The Libyan Anarchy: Inscriptions from Egypt's Third Intermediate Period, The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice, The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition, and over 100 publications on Egyptian religion, magic, medicine, language and literature, as well as social and political history. He has lectured extensively on each of these topics throughout the United States, Europe and Egypt. He has served as Visiting Professor in Paris in 2009 and in Philadelphia in 2003. In association with The Field Museum of Chicago, Dr. Ritner was the academic advisor for its current Egypt installation and for two British Museum exhibits “Cleopatra of Egypt: From History to Myth,” and “Eternal Egypt.” In addition, he served as consultant and lecturer for the traveling Cairo Museum exhibit “Quest for Immortality: Treasures of Ancient Egypt.” Ritner has led Oriental Institute tours of Egypt for 30 years. I know some here have tried to discredit Ritner for his complete dismissal of John Gee, but it's pretty foolish to dismiss a man with these credentials. Just like I often ask Mark Wright about Mesoamerica and trust him because he's an expert in the field, so also do I look to Ritner on questions of Egyptology -- especially as it relates to the Book of Abraham -- given the fact he has studied the JS Papyri pretty closely.Scholars have been poking also at the bible for quite some time, many attempting to debunk the book. But when it comes to faith, such scholarly work does not seem to have a very great effect on believers. People still wish to believe in their religions regardless of what academics say. The same will be for the BoA. People who have spiritual experiences around their religious books will not be influenced by scholars or academics. Their knowledge goes beyond academic learning and interpretations. This is also the problem for people of other faiths who wish to use his findings against the lds church. They just need to see what such scholars have said or claimed about the bible to see that their own book is also found to be wanting by such scholars. However for the lds the scholars have two other books to attempt to debunk.
why me Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) If Ritner and other scholars are right then "revealed truths" are only wishful thinking or delusion.If scholars are right about the bible, 'revealed truths' are only wishful thiniking or delusion. I am afraid that all religious books are under threat from such an evaluation. It all comes down to faith in what one believes. But certainly if many religious scholars had their way, humanism would be the key to happiness...a world without god but with human goodness. Edited August 11, 2014 by why me 3
iriemon Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Should we note the bias of apologists, in favor of Mormonism, that unavoidably colors their arguments and interpretations? Exactly....Mormons have much more to lose in this situation and show a COMPLETE bias when it comes to the information. Ritner simply follows his education and expertise, which plainly shows that the BOA is NOT what it claims to be. Mormons absolutely cannot admit that JS made it up, and that the church is wrong in teaching what it still does...namely that the BOA is clearly spelled out what it is. It would discredit JS, and the church culture simply will not allow it. We have modern scholarship that proves it wrong. The Scholars don't set out to be Anti-Mormon, that term is used by Mormons about someone who disagrees with, or call's BS on, their undefendable claims. Same goes for the Book of Mormon.
iriemon Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Scholars have been poking also at the bible for quite some time, many attempting to debunk the book. But when it comes to faith, such scholarly work does not seem to have a very great effect on believers. People still wish to believe in their religions regardless of what academics say. The same will be for the BoA. People who have spiritual experiences around their religious books will not be influenced by scholars or academics. Their knowledge goes beyond academic learning and interpretations. This is also the problem for people of other faiths who wish to use his findings against the lds church. They just need to see what such scholars have said or claimed about the bible to see that their own book is also found to be wanting by such scholars. However for the lds the scholars have two other books to attempt to debunk. Yes, interesting isn't it, that people still belive that a guy lived in a whale, or that somehow a road was at the bottom of the Red Sea, or that the earth is 6000 years old, or that a million Jews left Egypt and despite NO evidence, and were in the desert nearby for 40 years. The bible HAS been debunked. You can manufacture a spiritual experience just about anytime you want. If you are culturally trained to think that "Elevation" is somehow a spiritual experience, you can manufacture just about anything into a spiritual experience. The FLDS say the same testimonies, and have the same feelings mainstream Mormons do. I don't believe their testimonies any more than I believe the Mormon testimony.
bcuzbcuz Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Flakerman in his youtube video on the BOA shows other scenes with the legs apartYes he does, point taken. The other vignettes, unfortunately, are not accompanied with translations of their texts, nor do we know WHEN these texts and vignettes were produced, both key factors, in my opinion, as to relevence.
Storm Rider Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Ignore or ridicule, the issue is not going away and as long as scholars research and publish on this matter I can only feel sympathy for those playing on the LDS team. Feel sympathy for me? How do you respond when a person you don't know feels sympathy for what they perceive is your stupidity or your poor dress or...pick a topic. Does it affect you? I suspect if affects you to the same degree that this individual's comments about the PofGP affects me. I really could not care less; it is meaningless to me; as in having all the import of knowing which way the fly buzzes by me. It is so strange for someone to be concerned about something of so little value to so many. If you want to be concerned or have sympathy, then knock yourself out. But really, I could not care any less. I just have too many other things of value to be concerned about than what this individual thinks. 1
Storm Rider Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Yes, interesting isn't it, that people still belive that a guy lived in a whale, or that somehow a road was at the bottom of the Red Sea, or that the earth is 6000 years old, or that a million Jews left Egypt and despite NO evidence, and were in the desert nearby for 40 years. The bible HAS been debunked. You can manufacture a spiritual experience just about anytime you want. If you are culturally trained to think that "Elevation" is somehow a spiritual experience, you can manufacture just about anything into a spiritual experience. The FLDS say the same testimonies, and have the same feelings mainstream Mormons do. I don't believe their testimonies any more than I believe the Mormon testimony. Thank you for sharing; am I supposed to care about your statements? I guess I am just not a very charitable person because your thoughts and feelings mean nothing to me.
bcuzbcuz Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 If scholars are right about the bible, 'revealed truths' are only wishful thiniking or delusion. I am afraid that all religious books are under threat from such an evaluation. It all comes down to faith in what one believes. But certainly if many religious scholars had their way, humanism would be the key to happiness...a world without god but with human goodness.All would be good and well, if....these books did not claim to be the revealed truth.The Book of Mormon, at least in my copy of it, that I carried and studied my whole mission and studied daily for another 10 years following my mission, states that it is, "The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation...........all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." If it had claimed to be an interesting tale about the wild west, I wouldn´t be as upset when, upon not finding any evidence in North America to verify its stories, it jumps ship to land in Central America.My Pearl of Great Price states: "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands, from the catacombs of Egypt; the writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon Papyrus." Now, when considerable evidence exists that shows it was definitely not written by Abraham, and doesn´t even mention him....well, you get my gist.
why me Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Yes, interesting isn't it, that people still belive that a guy lived in a whale, or that somehow a road was at the bottom of the Red Sea, or that the earth is 6000 years old, or that a million Jews left Egypt and despite NO evidence, and were in the desert nearby for 40 years. The bible HAS been debunked. You can manufacture a spiritual experience just about anytime you want. If you are culturally trained to think that "Elevation" is somehow a spiritual experience, you can manufacture just about anything into a spiritual experience. The FLDS say the same testimonies, and have the same feelings mainstream Mormons do. I don't believe their testimonies any more than I believe the Mormon testimony. Perhaps so. However, relgious people who are critical of the BoA often overlook the problem with the bible or with any holy book. For example, we have nothing what jesus wrote or even said. But we do have writers telling us what he said decades after the event itself. One can question this with 'relative' eyes but that would overlook spiritual experiences. With mormonism it is the complete picture and so it must be looked at as a whole, especially when it comes to JS. And when one does do this, it doesn't seem like he would be a charleton or a fraud. If so, he would need to enlist 11 others in the fraud and I include emma in this. And then we would need to discount the countless spiritual experiences that people had at that time with JS. And there were many. And I am sure that joseph had to explain the book of mormon story countless of times to converts etc. And he seemed believable. I guess what I am trying to say is that the lds church grew into a beautiful church, creating wonderful people,. Not something a con man could create. And people still receive a spiritual experience about the book of mormon, regardless if they want it or not. So, what to do?
ERayR Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) If Ritner and other scholars are right then "revealed truths" are only wishful thinking or delusion. And if he is wrong it leaves you standing there with a smug look and egg on your face. I have it from a higher source that he is wrong and isn't yet educated enough to know it. Edited August 11, 2014 by ERayR 3
ERayR Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Exactly....Mormons have much more to lose in this situation and show a COMPLETE bias when it comes to the information. Ritner simply follows his education and expertise, which plainly shows that the BOA is NOT what it claims to be. Mormons absolutely cannot admit that JS made it up, and that the church is wrong in teaching what it still does...namely that the BOA is clearly spelled out what it is. It would discredit JS, and the church culture simply will not allow it. We have modern scholarship that proves it wrong. The Scholars don't set out to be Anti-Mormon, that term is used by Mormons about someone who disagrees with, or call's BS on, their undefendable claims. Same goes for the Book of Mormon. Spoken like a person who doesn't have a clue and doesn't want one. 3
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 So...........anything new? Or is this the same old same old.
ERayR Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Yes, interesting isn't it, that people still belive that a guy lived in a whale, or that somehow a road was at the bottom of the Red Sea, or that the earth is 6000 years old, or that a million Jews left Egypt and despite NO evidence, and were in the desert nearby for 40 years. The bible HAS been debunked. You can manufacture a spiritual experience just about anytime you want. If you are culturally trained to think that "Elevation" is somehow a spiritual experience, you can manufacture just about anything into a spiritual experience. The FLDS say the same testimonies, and have the same feelings mainstream Mormons do. I don't believe their testimonies any more than I believe the Mormon testimony. I am so sorry for you. Someone must have hurt you terribly for you to be so bitter.
ERayR Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 All would be good and well, if....these books did not claim to be the revealed truth.The Book of Mormon, at least in my copy of it, that I carried and studied my whole mission and studied daily for another 10 years following my mission, states that it is, "The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation...........all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." If it had claimed to be an interesting tale about the wild west, I wouldn´t be as upset when, upon not finding any evidence in North America to verify its stories, it jumps ship to land in Central America.My Pearl of Great Price states: "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands, from the catacombs of Egypt; the writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon Papyrus." Now, when considerable evidence exists that shows it was definitely not written by Abraham, and doesn´t even mention him....well, you get my gist. And why would you care what the claims are.
ERayR Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Perhaps so. However, relgious people who are critical of the BoA often overlook the problem with the bible or with any holy book. For example, we have nothing what jesus wrote or even said. But we do have writers telling us what he said decades after the event itself. One can question this with 'relative' eyes but that would overlook spiritual experiences. With mormonism it is the complete picture and so it must be looked at as a whole, especially when it comes to JS. And when one does do this, it doesn't seem like he would be a charleton or a fraud. If so, he would need to enlist 11 others in the fraud and I include emma in this. And then we would need to discount the countless spiritual experiences that people had at that time with JS. And there were many. And I am sure that joseph had to explain the book of mormon story countless of times to converts etc. And he seemed believable. I guess what I am trying to say is that the lds church grew into a beautiful church, creating wonderful people,. Not something a con man could create. And people still receive a spiritual experience about the book of mormon, regardless if they want it or not. So, what to do?Why Me Iremon believes in none of the scriptures so is not persuaded by such reasoning. In fact from his posts I an not certain (at this point) he believes that anything is good.
wenglund Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 "Why couldn't Joseph Smith have translated from a different roll? " See the paper by Andrew Cooke and Chris Smith on Gee's "missing scroll" thesis. https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Original-Length-of-the-Scroll-of-Hor.pdf See this thread where the Cooke and Smith thesis is seriously and humorously challenged. Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
Helen47 Posted August 11, 2014 Author Posted August 11, 2014 Another response to Gee http://institute-re.net/images/article17/Dialogue_V45N03_120.pdf
Pahoran Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 If Ritner and other scholars are right then "revealed truths" are only wishful thinking or delusion. Which brings your deep, profound and oh so sincere sympathy. Got it. What you fail to grasp is that Ritner "and other scholars" (or the anti-Mormons who find him a welcome ally) may well be right about those matters that actually fall within the area of his scholarly expertise without having any impact at all upon the Book of Abraham. Because that's not a subject that falls within the scope of his training. Regards, Pahoran 4
Helen47 Posted August 11, 2014 Author Posted August 11, 2014 If you look at Fac 3 and check out the scholars interpretations of these they all agree that the figure are Isis, Osiris, Maat, the deceased (Hor) and Anubis. It actually in the notes below the Fac that their names are written above. "King Pharoah, whose name is given in the characters above his head" Yet we we know fromscholarship that this is Isis. Also according to Ritner saying 'King Pharoah" is like saying ":king king" Just curious how you get Smith's interpretation around this.
ERayR Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 If you look at Fac 3 and check out the scholars interpretations of these they all agree that the figure are Isis, Osiris, Maat, the deceased (Hor) and Anubis. It actually in the notes below the Fac that their names are written above. "King Pharoah, whose name is given in the characters above his head" Yet we we know fromscholarship that this is Isis. Also according to Ritner saying 'King Pharoah" is like saying ":king king" Just curious how you get Smith's interpretation around this. You evidently are not reading the responses and responding to them so I brought it forward now all you have to do is read. Oh, a little attempt at comprehension helps. Which brings your deep, profound and oh so sincere sympathy. Got it.What you fail to grasp is that Ritner "and other scholars" (or the anti-Mormons who find him a welcome ally) may well be right about those matters that actually fall within the area of his scholarly expertise without having any impact at all upon the Book of Abraham.Because that's not a subject that falls within the scope of his training.Regards,Pahoran 1
Helen47 Posted August 11, 2014 Author Posted August 11, 2014 "without having any impact at all upon the Book of Abraham" How can the work of Ritner and others not have any impact on the Book of Abraham. No need for the sarcasm to.
Pahoran Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 "without having any impact at all upon the Book of Abraham" How can the work of Ritner and others not have any impact on the Book of Abraham. Because Ritner doesn't have any particular expertise about the Book of Abraham. I don't doubt that he knows a lot about the surviving Joseph Smith papyri. But those two things are not the same thing. And just what the connection between them is, is a question that falls outside his area of expertise. No need for the sarcasm to. In which case, you would have done well to spare us your rather sarcastic "sympathy." Regards, Pahoran 1
Popular Post wenglund Posted August 11, 2014 Popular Post Posted August 11, 2014 "without having any impact at all upon the Book of Abraham" How can the work of Ritner and others not have any impact on the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham isn't about Egyptology. Rather, it is about Abraham and his interactions with and revelations from God. This is so obvious as to cause me to wonder how you did not know this. Thanks, -Wade Englund- 5
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