Reign Of Judges: Title Of Liberty

[strappinglad]

If ROJ spends a lot of time trying to project the Heartland model, it will encourage the critics to mock the BoM , and it will have the potential to shake testimonies when critics show just how "Swiss cheezy" the model is. For those who don't have a handle on the problems with Meldrum's theory, I link this critique:

http://www.bmaf.org/node/359

[tonie]

If ROJ spends a lot of time trying to project the Heartland model, it will encourage the critics to mock the BoM , and it will have the potential to shake testimonies when critics show just how "Swiss cheezy" the model is. For those who don't have a handle on the problems with Meldrum's theory, I link this critique:

http://www.bmaf.org/node/359

Wouldn't a critic of the Book of Mormon, criticize any "model" - heartland; Mexico/Southern United States; Central America; South America? What difference would it make to a critic who, regardless of the model presented, would claim there isn't evidence for the Book of Mormon? If we are worried about critics, evidence, historical accuracy and ridicule, wouldn't the best course of action be to keep quite about the Book of Mormon and its historical setting.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Have we thought about the possibility that the Nephites were in North American and the Lamanites were in Mexico, Central and South America?

 

When did Mexico and Central America cease being integral parts of North America?

 

I cannot emphasize enough, decisions for this film are being made from the record itself.

 

Important question: I'm a professional historian, and much of my research has been in texts written by Portuguese Jesuits resident in the islands of the East during the 16th century. These texts make repeated reference to the local diet consisting largely of bread and figs, and they also note that some of the beaches are hazardous due to the huge lizards that inhabit them. If I were to make a film based on these Jesuits' experiences, should I show them eating leavened wheat bread and some variety of Ficus carica, as their records literally suggest, or should I depict them eating grilled sago starch and varieties of bananas, still local staples 500 years later? Also, should I import monitor lizards (the world's largest) to put on the beaches for filming, or should I just use the saltwater crocodiles that already live there?

 

It seems to me far more of a stretch to say the climate in Moroni's time was more tropical.

 

What textual references to cold/snow/ice/winter will you be using?

 

We are all doing the best we can.

 

I think this is indeed true. My sincerest best wishes for your endeavour!

Edited August 6, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[halconero]

Where it will be portrayed will not be a main focus of the film (it is not a documentary-- it's an EPIC) although it is abundantly clear both by the record itself, and WHERE the record was buried, that much of it (especially Captain Moroni's time frame) took place in what is now North America. That said, we do not exclude Canada or South America.

Because Canada is excluded from North America. Let's not even talk about all those troublesome Caribbean islands, Mexico, Guatemala, Panama, etc, etc.

1 Nephi 22: 7 "And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a MIGHTY NATION among the Gentiles (America), yea, even UPON THE FACE OF THIS LAND (where the Nephites currently were in Nephi's time 550 B.C.); and by them shall our seed (the AMERICAN Indians) be scattered."

I'd argue that Spain did a much better job of slaughter and scattering the indigenous people of the American continents than the USA ever did. It was also a massive, mighty, gentile nation at the time of Cortez, Ferdinand, Charles V, etc. The idea that the Mighty Nation has to be the USA is more based on Americentrism (something many North American Latter-day Saints are guilty of) than a reading of the text. The fact the Mighty Nation rises rather quick after the Inspired Gentile arrives in the Americas implies a nation other than the USA, which arose around 300 years afterwards. Even then, it wasn't even really considered a mighty or great power until much later.

But we cannot entirely exclude South America or Canada: (49–39 B.C.) Helaman 3:8 "And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east."

Ambiguous.

BOM Intro: “all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the AMERICAN Indians.”

Mayans, Aztec, Inca, Mapuche, Yaqui, and others no longer live in the Americas? Good to know that the United States has exclusive rights to the word. Up until now I considered myself American, just one that lives in an igloo and looks up to Elizabeth II as a head of state.

Alma 46:4 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some SEASONS of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate— NOT A TROPICAL CLIMATE among the Nephites in Moroni's time.

Tropical climates have seasons too. Wet seasons, dry seasons, planting seasons, flood seasons. Guess what? Fevers are more prevalent in the wet seasons too.

Here's another whopper "The Lamanites were small, as portrayed in Apocolypto."

Mosiah 10:11 "Now, the Lamanites knew nothing concerning the Lord, nor the strength of the Lord, therefore they depended upon their own strength. Yet they were a strong people, as to the strength of men.

For reference (the Jaradites were even larger than the Nephites/Lamanites and this same language was used to describe them): Ether 7:8 "And it came to pass that Shule was angry with his brother; and Shule waxed strong, and became mighty as to the strength of a man; and he was also mighty in judgment."

Small =/= weak. An aztec eagle or jaguar warrior would have been up to my shoulder, and would be far leaner, but I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with one with regards to strength.

Edited August 6, 2014 by halconero

[Matthew J. Tandy]

What source would a "historical consultant" look too to provide historically accurate or more accurate depictions (dress, weapons, every day items) of the Book of Mormon?

 

 

Archaeology, anthropology, paleobotany, etc. You pick a geographical area that best fits the text, then go from there. Alternatively, if you are going for a vague geography that does not promote one model or another, you take out anything that would not work in any model based on archaeology, etc, and anything that is not supported by the text, except for where creative license is needed and sensible. However, you wouldn't toss a Spanish Galleon into a story about 11th century Inuit people just because you like it, unless your film is not even attempting historical accuracy.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

No, it's not. I am not aware of a great many things. That isn't condescension There was no questioning of Darin's intelligence. He wrote an excellent screenplay, and historical aspects aside, I support the feel and theme of his film. Darin clearly is not aware or has not actively engaged in dialogue with the corpus of academic research for the last century within the church. That has no bearing on his character, abilities, intent, etc.

 

Or he would agree with you, right?

[strappinglad]

Many movies have been made based on bible stories. For the most part the makers have had access to info about the times and peoples, even if they only played lip service to such info. Equivalent depths of info is very much missing when presenting the world of the Nephites. My suggestion would be to keep the plot and script as it pertains to the characters , but move the location to space or some planet called ZARA. That way any minutia could be presented without dispute. Mind you, that has been done to death, so I relent.

Edited August 6, 2014 by strappinglad

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Or he would agree with you, right?

 

 

Stop with the snide remarks. I said no such thing. The greater context of my remarks inthis thread demonstrates I don't believe he would necessarily agree with me. He simply hasn't engaged in the larger corpus.

 

Do you have something material to contribute? Because your two comments in this thread have been one line snide remarks. Stop it.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Stop with the snide remarks. I said no such thing. The greater context of my remarks inthis thread demonstrates I don't believe he would necessarily agree with me. He simply hasn't engaged in the larger corpus.

 

Do you have something material to contribute? Because your two comments in this thread have been one line snide remarks. Stop it.

At least my snide remarks are clear and direct, not hidden behind a multiplicity of words.

But, per your request, I shall refrain from posting in this topic any further.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

OK, I fibbed just a little. I have one more thing to say...

I agree that I hope, with everything that is in me, that they don't Romanize the costumes. Some of the Captain Moroni depictions floating around Mormondum are redunkulous.

[Tiki]

I can't believe it! I read the first few pages of the script and it depicts the warriors chasing Moroni wearing a bison-like skin as a cloak. And bison are in North America.

This movie will never be accurate if it doesn't depict flat-headed Nephites riding tapirs!

Edited August 6, 2014 by Tiki

[Tiki]

Double-post because I was laughing too hard.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Tiki