Our Church Cares About The Trees

[Zakuska]

I did not say only 5 people have died. I said less than five in other disasters. Chernobyl was an anomaly. It was run unsafely. Saying we should not use nuclear plants because the Soviets screwed it up would be like shutting down all coal mines in the US because there was a mind collapse in China due to inadequate safety precautions.

Yes, nuclear waste is a problem but we have safe ways to store the stuff. The same cannot be said of fossil fuel emissions.

Fukishima was state of the art yet everyone of their redundant systems failed and they are still leaking to this day.

On the other hand, greenhouse gases are realtively safe to handle comparable to radio active waste, and God has given us everything we need to process them. I wonder how many natural disasters have occured and how many people have died planting trees?

[Tiki]

Fukishima was state of the art yet everyone of their redundant systems failed and they are still leaking to this day.

On the other hand, greenhouse gases are realtively safe to handle comparable to radio active waste, and God has given us everything we need to process them. I wonder how many natural disasters have occured and how many people have died planting trees?

Of course, the most abundant greenhouse gas is water vapor at 95%. But since Noah's flood was local, we should concern ourselves only with cabon dioxide which is at 4% by volume.

[thesometimesaint]

Just for fun, a little math reality check. There are about 100 million homes in the USA. To provide a significant percentage of power from solar each home would need about 550 sqft. of panels. That's 55 billion sqft. of panels which need to be produced. But there would still be a need for grid power for peak usage and dark times. I wonder how the grid providers will make up for the lost revenue? Solar panel costs have been significantly reduced in the last decade, but installation costs will remain steady. Currently a home needs about $35,000 to install solar. That's a $ 3500000000000 outlay( 3.5 trillion for the zeros impaired)

Then there is the automobile problem. Stand on a busy overpass one day and watch the thousands of vehicles pass by and ask what it would take to convert even 20% of them to viable electric power. And where is the electricity to come from to power them? Oh ya, solar and wind. Please see the immensity that confronts us.

I forgot to add all the electric airplanes to the mix.

 

Math is fun.

 

Nearly every home in the US is capable of providing at least 50% of its own electrical needs without doing any conservation at all. I've already demonstrated ways to conserve power and actually increase your standard of living. So we have cut 50% of the power plants needed to be built just to provide electricity to stay equal to today's production. Lets toss in our water heaters. There is no reason why an average family can't meet 100% of their hot water needs by a solar hot water heater with a small standby backup.

 

What on earth did those buggy whip manufacturers do when the automobile became to norm for travel?

 

The US has an annual economy of about $100,000,000,000,000. For the math impaired that is 100 Trillion US dollars. So even assuming a $3.5 trillion total outlay over the effective lifespan of 30 years for the panels. That works out to about 1/10 of 1 percent per year.

 

For automobiles economics of  scale comes in really quickly. As all electrics become more economically viable and most car companies are producing some all electric models right now. The average age for cars in the US is 11.5 years. So just replacing one gasoline powered car with an all electric one every ten years. Will over that time frame virtually eliminate the gasoline powered cars. Plus if powered by hydrogen as an intermediate step then near zero pollution cars become viable in just 5 years.

 

Isn't math fun?

 

Electric planes are a reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_aircraft

 

For larger scales.

SEE http://www.boeing.com/stories/videos/vid_06_sugarvolt.html

[thesometimesaint]

Here is another idea you might consider.

SEE

[ERayR]

Then there is the automobile problem. Stand on a busy overpass one day and watch the thousands of vehicles pass by and ask what it would take to convert even 20% of them to viable electric power. And where is the electricity to come from to power them? Oh ya, solar and wind. Please see the immensity that confronts us.

 

 

What about the pollution generated to produce wind and solar generation equipment?  Somewhere (can't find it now) I saw an article stating that when you figure the pollution produced to generate electricity for electric cars and to manufacture the batteries and dispose of the used up batteries the very best that is possible is to break even on pollution production.  Add to that the limited range between recharge and it really takes some of the enthusiasm out of owning one at the price they are currently available.

[ERayR]

As a sustainable resource, yes it does:

 

And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

Helaman 3:9

 

Aren't you the one who believes that only the scirptures are the official doctrine?  How come you didn't quote any to support your pov in your OP?

 

 

I believe you are right.  Oh wait a minute you need to check the Book of Mormon writers credentials.  I believe he needs a doctorate in forestry to qualify him to speak on the subject.  Ah too bad, tear that page out.

[thesometimesaint]

What about the pollution generated to produce wind and solar generation equipment?  Somewhere (can't find it now) I saw an article stating that when you figure the pollution produced to generate electricity for electric cars and to manufacture the batteries and dispose of the used up batteries the very best that is possible is to break even on pollution production.  Add to that the limited range between recharge and it really takes some of the enthusiasm out of owning one at the price they are currently available.

 

One is long term investment in a renewable resource(wind and solar). The other is a short term expenditure for a transitory resource(coal and natural gas).

Batteries are endlessly reusable if properly disposed of, and recycled. It is simply our throwaway culture that is culprit. Most driving is within a 25 mile range. Easily achieved right now by lead/acid batteries. New high capacity batteries(like in your lap top) offer ranges in the 400 mile range before recharge. As economics of scale come in the price will/has come down even more. It is the mid-range 400-600 mile capacity that is the problem for individual transport. However light rail, and/or buses could help fill that gap. IE; My sister drives to her local train station(About 2 miles) where she rides the light rail to within a relative short distance(about a mile) of a bus shuttle, from her employer, that takes her directly to her job. So it can be done if we had the will to do it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

One is long term investment in a renewable resource(wind and solar). The other is a short term expenditure for a transitory resource(coal and natural gas).

 

I would hardly call those long term as the equipment does not last for years and years and years. I am for the hydrogen car, that would have solved a lot of issues and GM had a prototype but since the bail out some one put a kabosh on it.  Stupid government.

[strappinglad]

There is a huge potential for thorium as a fuel. It has many advantages.

[thesometimesaint]

Of course, the most abundant greenhouse gas is water vapor at 95%. But since Noah's flood was local, we should concern ourselves only with cabon dioxide which is at 4% by volume.

 

Water has weight. So it is physically impossible for Noah's flood to be global.

 

Water vapor is a trailing indicator. Just not of CO2 concentrations.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm

[thesometimesaint]

I would hardly call those long term as the equipment does not last for years and years and years. I am for the hydrogen car, that would have solved a lot of issues and GM had a prototype but since the bail out some one put a kabosh on it.  Stupid government.

 

Wind mills have been around for a long time. Hook up a generator to them and they produce electricity. Of course modern materials and wing design make it far more efficient than the old windmills of yesteryear . As good as the hydrogen car is, and it is very good. The electrolysis of water to hydrogen and oxygen requires more energy than it can produce. So it is a short term solution to a long term problem. TTBOMK Hydrogen powered cars are now available in the US.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

http://www.toyota.com/fuelcell/

[Zakuska]

Wind mills have been around for a long time. Hook up a generator to them and they produce electricity. Of course modern materials and wing design make it far more efficient than the old windmills of yesteryear . As good as the hydrogen car is, and it is very good. The electrolysis of water to hydrogen and oxygen requires more energy than it can produce. So it is a short term solution to a long term problem. TTBOMK Hydrogen powered cars are now available in the US.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

http://www.toyota.com/fuelcell/

If you have a solar powered Electrolysis unit your problems solved. Why waste solar energy by letting it get absorbed by dirt on the ground?  Harness it!  When you run out of gas (water) pee in your tank and you can make it to the next Cosco and buy some bottled water. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wind mills have been around for a long time. Hook up a generator to them and they produce electricity. Of course modern materials and wing design make it far more efficient than the old windmills of yesteryear . As good as the hydrogen car is, and it is very good. The electrolysis of water to hydrogen and oxygen requires more energy than it can produce. So it is a short term solution to a long term problem. TTBOMK Hydrogen powered cars are now available in the US.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

http://www.toyota.com/fuelcell/

There are conversion kits to get hydrogen cars. I was not aware that there were currently any production models available to consumers from major manufacturers. Solar is a possible solution but wind is not. Seems more is required to get the wind than it is worth. Huge towers, they don't power very much and the energy gathered must be used it cannot be stored. And also all those precious birds that are killed.

[thesometimesaint]

If you have a solar powered Electrolysis unit your problems solved. Why waste solar energy by letting it get absorbed by dirt on the ground?  Harness it!  When you run out of gas (water) pee in your tank and you can make it to the next Cosco and buy some bottled water. 

 

Not really. Use the electricity directly, and the hydrogen as the supply reservoir when the sun isn't shinning, or when the electric grid goes off line for more than a couple of hours. IE; I use a small battery pack(122 minutes) as the backup for my computer. Why would I want to use the ground as a sink for solar energy? My roof is a far better place to put my solar electric panels. Plus I can still use my yard for other purposes including growing a nice garden.  Cosco is the name of two separate companies. One is a shipping line and the other is a baby furniture maker. I think you mean Costco. Urine isn't a good medium for conversion to hydrogen and oxygen.Too many minerals to contaminate the fuel source for the fuel cells. Same with the bottled water I buy at the grocery store, as part of my food storage, and for trips in my car. Plus I'd still have the problem of it still takes more energy to break water into hydrogen and oxygen than I can get out of it.

 

OTOH if you want to be silly. Go with pissing in a fuel tank. I'm sure that will work out real well as we become a more third world nation left far behind by the rest of scientifically advanced world.

[thesometimesaint]

There are conversion kits to get hydrogen cars. I was not aware that there were currently any production models available to consumers from major manufacturers. Solar is a possible solution but wind is not. Seems more is required to get the wind than it is worth. Huge towers, they don't power very much and the energy gathered must be used it cannot be stored. And also all those precious birds that are killed.

 

There is no single solution to meeting the demands for electricity. Solar is just one of the many ways we will need more and more of in the future. Where I live wind isn't a viable option, as I live in a narrow valley up against some high mountains. However just a few miles down the I-10 wind farms are producing lots of energy that is used in Palm Springs. Kansas is much better fit and is leading the US in wind powered electricity. Because of dynamic forces wind is best in the 6-10 mile an hour range. Much less and it isn't strong enough to turn the blades fast enough in directional dependent machines. Omnidirectional ones over come that, but so far haven't able to upscale for large applications. Much over 10 mph and stresses on the blades require feathering which of course reduces efficiency. Storage of electricity is always a problem. Hydroelectric dams store water as the "fuel". Possibilities include pumping water when supply exceeds temporary demands that are low. Compressed air, Hydrogen, and space based reflecting satellites are also among the possibilities.

[strappinglad]

Have you ever played with one of those metal twisted puzzles? One can pull and push and turn to get the two pieces apart. One can use a hack saw or grind wheel to separate them. But, with a bit of knowledge and just the right turn, the 2 pieces separate with little effort. A holy grail in energy research is to find the key to separating hydrogen and oxygen in water. Cold fusion was a recent discredited effort to do this. Brown's gas is another. Perhaps it is like the attempt to create a perpetual motion machine, but hopefully one day someone will hold his/her mouth just right and shazam, a near limitless power source.

Edited June 18, 2014 by strappinglad

[thesometimesaint]

Have you ever played with one of those metal twisted puzzles? One can pull and push and turn to get the two pieces apart. One can use a hack saw or grind wheel to separate them. But, with a bit of knowledge and just the right turn, the 2 pieces separate with little effort. A holy grail in energy research is to find the key to separating hydrogen and oxygen in water. Cold fusion was a recent discredited effort to do this. Brown's gas is another. Perhaps it is like the attempt to create perpetual motion machine, but hopefully one day someone will hold his/her mouth just right and shazam, a near limitless power source.

 

There is no limitless power source outside of God. Eventually even our sun will run out of hydrogen to burn and our earth will either be consumed by the expansion to burn Helium, or become a permanent ice cube. So far it looks like it will be the former, and not the latter. Put a cathode and an anode in water and hydrogen and oxygen separate. That's been well known for hundreds of years. What we do need to find is an economical way to do it that doesn't produce a net loss in power. What I think it will take is that achieving that crossover point with man made suns in thermonuclear reactors

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

[Zakuska]

Not really. Use the electricity directly, and the hydrogen as the supply reservoir when the sun isn't shinning, or when the electric grid goes off line for more than a couple of hours. IE; I use a small battery pack(122 minutes) as the backup for my computer. Why would I want to use the ground as a sink for solar energy? My roof is a far better place to put my solar electric panels. Plus I can still use my yard for other purposes including growing a nice garden.  Cosco is the name of two separate companies. One is a shipping line and the other is a baby furniture maker. I think you mean Costco. Urine isn't a good medium for conversion to hydrogen and oxygen.Too many minerals to contaminate the fuel source for the fuel cells. Same with the bottled water I buy at the grocery store, as part of my food storage, and for trips in my car. Plus I'd still have the problem of it still takes more energy to break water into hydrogen and oxygen than I can get out of it.

 

OTOH if you want to be silly. Go with pissing in a fuel tank. I'm sure that will work out real well as we become a more third world nation left far behind by the rest of scientifically advanced world.

 

Astronuats recicrulate their urine through a recalmation unit.   Thats what I was thinking when writing that.

 

The problem with Hydrogen cells I see is just that.  The water you use with them needs to be pretty purified or it corodes the plates or other wise gunks them up and their performance suffers. Besides, We're not talking a bout perpetual motion machines here. were talking about supplimenting and makeing what we have more efficient.

 

I've seen a VW bug drive 15 miles on a 16 oz bottle of water, purchased directly from a store. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Zakuska

[strappinglad]

There is no limitless power source outside of God. Eventually even our sun will run out of hydrogen to burn and our earth will either be consumed by the expansion to burn Helium, or become a permanent ice cube. So far it looks like it will be the former, and not the latter. Put a cathode and an anode in water and hydrogen and oxygen separate. That's been well known for hundreds of years. What we do need to find is an economical way to do it that doesn't produce a net loss in power. What I think it will take is that achieving that crossover point with man made suns in thermonuclear reactors

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

My point was not that the separation could not be done, but that it took more energy to produce the separation than was economical. If one puts oxygen and hydrogen together they seem to bond strongly and without much energy needed. Oh that it were possible to unlock them in just as easy a way. ( notice I said NEAR limitless)

Mind you, if water became the next fuel , the price would skyrocket and government would tax it. Such is life.

Edited June 18, 2014 by strappinglad

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Astronuats recicrulate their urine through a recalmation unit.   Thats what I was thinking when writing that.

 

The problem with Hydrogen cells I see is just that.  The water you use with them needs to be pretty purified or it corodes the plates or other wise gunks them up and their performance suffers. Besides, We're not talking a bout perpetual motion machines here. were talking about supplimenting and makeing what we have more efficient.

 

I've seen a VW bug drive 15 miles on a 16 oz bottle of water, purchased directly from a store. 

Distilled water will be the next thing.

[The Nehor]

There is no limitless power source outside of God. Eventually even our sun will run out of hydrogen to burn and our earth will either be consumed by the expansion to burn Helium, or become a permanent ice cube. So far it looks like it will be the former, and not the latter. Put a cathode and an anode in water and hydrogen and oxygen separate. That's been well known for hundreds of years. What we do need to find is an economical way to do it that doesn't produce a net loss in power. What I think it will take is that achieving that crossover point with man made suns in thermonuclear reactors

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

I don't know. I have met obese people who insist they cannot lose weight no matter how little they eat. Perhaps they are the key to unlimited energy.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't know. I have met obese people who insist they cannot lose weight no matter how little they eat. Perhaps they are the key to unlimited energy.

"I'll have a Big Mac, large fry, and large diet Coke"......... "I am trying to lose weight".

Edited June 18, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Zakuska]

"I'll have a Big Mac, large fry, and large diet Coke"......... "I am trying to lose weight".

The thing with McDonalds is yes.  It is FULL of energy like that. But... what most people tend to do is eat it and then go to bed.  Instead of eat it and then go work off the calories. Through exercise or work.

[thesometimesaint]

Astronuats recicrulate their urine through a recalmation unit.   Thats what I was thinking when writing that.

 

The problem with Hydrogen cells I see is just that.  The water you use with them needs to be pretty purified or it corodes the plates or other wise gunks them up and their performance suffers. Besides, We're not talking a bout perpetual motion machines here. were talking about supplimenting and makeing what we have more efficient.

 

I've seen a VW bug drive 15 miles on a 16 oz bottle of water, purchased directly from a store. 

 

We're already starting to use reclaimed water for drinking in some places, not just astronauts. Overall it is still better for use in fire hydrants and on golf courses. There is nothing wrong with the water, but public acceptance is the problem.

 

We use the hydrogen not the water directly in fuel cells. fuel cells can use natural gas as a fuel but the carbon in the natural gas eventually clogs them up. It  It has been suggested that we use coal as a feedstock for hydrogen production. Using high temperature/high pressure steam to liberate the hydrogen in the coal. The draw back is heating the water and pressurizing it burns the coal thus producing CO2 and coal is a dirty and finite resource. While we will never technically run out of coal. We are a capitalistic society, so the cost in dollars and cents will rise to the point it is no longer economically viable.

 

I'm not talking about perpetual motion machines either. Which are more of an interest to the general public than to a scientist. There is no such thing as a greater than 100% efficient machine. Entropy works.

 

The science behind water to hydrogen use in machines is that the 80% return is the maximum efficiency rate. So we absolutely need an outside source for the power to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen that we burn in the engine that makes heat and water.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know. I have met obese people who insist they cannot lose weight no matter how little they eat. Perhaps they are the key to unlimited energy.

 

Jonathan Swift had a somewhat similar idea. OUCH.