Noah's Flood And "mental Gymanstics" - Local Flooders Wanted!

[MormonFreeThinker]

Its true that you will not be excommunicated for believing in death before the fall. The same can be said for those believe polygamy was never a commandment by God in the early days of the church

 

But polygamy was official doctrine, it is clear. Sure, some members say that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy, but they are still worthy members. So why is it important to believe in "no death" before the Fall? Why is it a must? 

[mnn727]

1.) . But, the fall really makes no sense if there was death before the fall. It also doesnt make much sense for there to be "men" before Adam on the earth when the scriptures tell us that Adam was the first man of all men on this earth. The flood also makes no sense if it were just a localized flood.

 

 

2.)These three doctrines (no death before the fall, Adam the first man, the global flood) all pretty much counter mainstream science and tell us that mans learning and wisdom is not on par with God and his mighty hand.

 

1.) It makes perfect sense to someone who takes the time to think about them rationally

 

2.)God who set up the rules the universe runs on just throws them away, and becomes magical like Gandalf or Merlin. Creating Earth covering amounts of water and then removing it. Placing historical records, (like dino bones, tree's older than the flood, ice and soil records disproving the flood, etc) in the ground that are false just to fool us - sort of a trickster God like Loki.

 

Let go of the Fables: God is still present, God is still God, when you grasp science and let go of a primitive tribes attempt to explain things they did not understand.

Is science always perfect? no, buts its willing to throw out the old beliefs when new proofs come along. Believing in fables and fairy tales because its written in a book that we do not believe is always accurate is just like putting blinders on and missing out in the spender of what Truth really is - and that Truth promotes God much better than fables do.

Edited December 20, 2014 by mnn727

[Rob Osborn]

But polygamy was official doctrine, it is clear. Sure, some members say that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy, but they are still worthy members. So why is it important to believe in "no death" before the Fall? Why is it a must?

Because Adam introduced death to the world because of the fall.

[Rob Osborn]

1.) It makes perfect sense to someone who takes the time to think about them rationally

 

2.)God who set up the rules the universe runs on just throws them away, and becomes magical like Gandalf or Merlin. Creating Earth covering amounts of water and then removing it. Placing historical records, (like dino bones, tree's older than the flood, ice and soil records disproving the flood, etc) in the ground that are false just to fool us - sort of a trickster God like Loki.

 

Let go of the Fables: God is still present, God is still God, when you grasp science and let go of a primitive tribes attempt to explain things they did not understand.

Is science always perfect? no, buts its willing to throw out the old beliefs when new proofs come along. Believing in fables and fairy tales because its written in a book that we do not believe is always accurate is just like putting blinders on and missing out in the spender of what Truth really is - and that Truth promotes God much better than fables do.

Rationally thinking, the only way the geologic column makes any sense is if one adheres to a belief of several cataclysmic events which would include a great global flood and then a series of other geologic events including earthquakes, volcanoes and mountain uplifts.

The greatest fable ever told to man was that of uniformitarian geology spanning hundreds of millions of years slowly building up the geologic column and burying life in mass magnitudes in its slow upward climb.

You see, science is anything but perfect when compared alongside the scriptures. Scientists these days wear atheist blinders and believe such far fetched notions that the whole paradigm is the greatest fable ever told. Someday we all see the truth and realize how foolish mans ways really are.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[MormonFreeThinker]

Because Adam introduced death to the world because of the fall.

 

again, why is it important to believe in death before the Fall? how is that going to affect my salvation?

It is not apostasy, I have the right to believe in death before the Fall 

Edited December 20, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[thesometimesaint]

There is plenty of ways to test for if there was no physical death before 6000 years ago. That idea has been tested repeatedly and found to be false. What, if anything, continues after its physical death is a non-falsifiable proposition. IE; Religion. If our Hindu brothers and sisters are correct coming back as a cow isn't all that bad, at least in India. If our Atheist brothers and sisters are correct. Then none of us will know any different anyway.

[Rob Osborn]

again, why is it important to believe in death before the Fall? how is that going to affect my salvation?

It is not apostasy, I have the right to believe in death before the Fall

You are free in your beliefs. Whether they align with the church doesnt mean a whole lot in terms of salvation but at least know that your beliefs do not align with the church. Thats all.

[Rob Osborn]

There is plenty of ways to test for if there was no physical death before 6000 years ago. That idea has been tested repeatedly and found to be false. What, if anything, continues after its physical death is a non-falsifiable proposition. IE; Religion. If our Hindu brothers and sisters are correct coming back as a cow isn't all that bad, at least in India. If our Atheist brothers and sisters are correct. Then none of us will know any different anyway.

There really isnt much proof we have scientifically that death occurred much beyond 6000 years ago. We have a lot of conjecture we can throw at it but currently we have no way of knowing for sure. Radiometric dating has been proven to be debatebale on its accuracy and without being able to go into the past there is no way to confirm where the tests actually fail or are correct. I am often reminded over and over again about the find of soft tissue in dinosaur bones and how it defies all known thought.

Your last part there sounds like a system of faithless jargon.

[MormonFreeThinker]

You are free in your beliefs. Whether they align with the church doesnt mean a whole lot in terms of salvation but at least know that your beliefs do not align with the church. Thats all.

 

If they do not affect my salvation, how are they against the teachings of the church? The church does not have an official position. 

 

Where do you find the "no blood" before the Fall teaching in the scriptures? 

 

 

Radiometric dating has been proven to be debatebale on its accuracy and without being able to go into the past there is no way to confirm where the tests actually fail or are correct. I am often reminded over and over again about the find of soft tissue in dinosaur bones and how it defies all known thought.

 

1. The soft tissue doesn't help you case, soft tissue does not survive for 1,000 years unless it is mummified under very special conditions. It can survive for 1,000 and more when it is mummified. 

See, nobody is trying to hide anything, read the Scientific American article 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-flesh-out-foss/

 

"Although fossils containing organic compounds or mummified soft tissues have been discovered before, the presence of both in one find is "as rare as hen's teeth" 

 

 

2. The earliest writing systems date back to 3500 B.C.

 

3. Tree Ring dating

 

4. Carbon Dating 

 

5. Many other dating methods 

Edited December 20, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[DragonLancer]

You are free in your beliefs. Whether they align with the church doesnt mean a whole lot in terms of salvation but at least know that your beliefs do not align with the church. Thats all.

 

Are you seriously saying that someone has to be a follower of the doctrines of Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie to be in alignment with the Church?  There are multiple strains of belief in the Church and nothing is official on these matters.  We can get into a your General Authority quote versus someone else's but you will never prove that there is some doctrine on these matters that makes one in "alignment".

Edited December 21, 2014 by DragonLancer

[Rob Osborn]

Are you seriously saying that someone has to be a follower of the doctrines of Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie to be in alignment with the Church?  There are multiple strains of belief in the Church and nothing is official on these matters.  We can get into a your General Authority quote versus someone else's but you will never prove that there is some doctrine on these matters that makes one in "alignment".

Its all too easy these days to see only what we want to. The no death before the fall is a firmly established doctrine. So is Adam being the first man and so is the flood being global. This isnt a few apostles pet theory, no, it is actual doctrine.

[cinepro]

 We can get into a your General Authority quote versus someone else's but you will never prove that there is some doctrine on these matters that makes one in "alignment".

 

I'll take that invitation.

 

Here's a quote from an Apostle, speaking in General Conference, saying that Adam didn't have blood circulating in his body until after the fall:

 

The Fall of Adam (and Eve) constituted the mortal creation and brought about the required changes in their bodies, including the circulation of blood and other modifications as well. 8

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1996/10/the-atonement?lang=eng

 

Here's the current CES manual "Doctrines of the Gospel" (latest English approval 7/2003) which quotes  Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith:

 

When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76–77).

 

Both of these statements from Apostles are currently published on the Church website.

 

Now it's your turn.  Please cite two quotes from Apostles on the Church website that indicate that these statements are incorrect (or even possibly incorrect).

[thesometimesaint]

I'll take that invitation.

 

Here's a quote from an Apostle, speaking in General Conference, saying that Adam didn't have blood circulating in his body until after the fall:

 

 

 

 

Here's the current CES manual "Doctrines of the Gospel" (latest English approval 7/2003) which quotes  Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith:

 

 

 

 

Both of these statements from Apostles are currently published on the Church website.

 

Now it's your turn.  Please cite two quotes from Apostles on the Church website that indicate that these statements are incorrect (or even possibly incorrect).

 

"x" is true, so "Y" must also be true. When the truth of "X" has yet to be demonstrated it becomes a tautology.

[DragonLancer]

Its all too easy these days to see only what we want to. The no death before the fall is a firmly established doctrine. So is Adam being the first man and so is the flood being global. This isnt a few apostles pet theory, no, it is actual doctrine.

 

No its not.  Its the most popular doctrine among a certain school of thought among general authorities, that was popularized by that set of general authorities to the detriment of the belief of the other set of general authorities.  Just quoting general authorities doesn't make doctrine.

[thesometimesaint]

There really isnt much proof we have scientifically that death occurred much beyond 6000 years ago. We have a lot of conjecture we can throw at it but currently we have no way of knowing for sure. Radiometric dating has been proven to be debatebale on its accuracy and without being able to go into the past there is no way to confirm where the tests actually fail or are correct. I am often reminded over and over again about the find of soft tissue in dinosaur bones and how it defies all known thought.

Your last part there sounds like a system of faithless jargon.

 

 

http://www.livescience.com/41537-t-rex-soft-tissue.html

 

I along with about 40% of all American scientists are Theists.I(we) believe in, and pray to a personal God.

[DragonLancer]

I'll take that invitation.

 

Here's a quote from an Apostle, speaking in General Conference, saying that Adam didn't have blood circulating in his body until after the fall:

 

 

 

 

Here's the current CES manual "Doctrines of the Gospel" (latest English approval 7/2003) which quotes  Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith:

 

 

 

 

Both of these statements from Apostles are currently published on the Church website.

 

Now it's your turn.  Please cite two quotes from Apostles on the Church website that indicate that these statements are incorrect (or even possibly incorrect).

 

 

Quoting to me statements that establish that Adam was in a state where he did not have blood doesn't prove anything for the rest of the creatures on the planet.  Furthermore, it doesn't prove anything for the other men that were on the planet that came out of Africa who the descendants of Adam intermarried with.  We have the genes of the Neanderthal, the Cro-Magnon, the Red Deer people, and so forth and so on.  And the genes of the people descended from these early homonin races are found in the precise areas where they lived.  For example, the red deer species of homonin lived in Asia and people in Asia have their genes.  The Neanderthals mostly lived in Europe, and Europeans have their genes.  Europeans do not have red deer DNA.  African blacks do not have Neanderthal DNA.  This means that when people migrated out of Africa, they intermarried with the local homonin species.

 

Similarly, when Adam's descendants came upon the other men, they intermarried.  Death was already on the planet among the inhabitants of the planet.  Dinosaur bones show death and predators eating the prey.  T-rexes did not eat straw.

 

The whole planet has the remains of animals and plants in the various geologic layers actually being used as building blocks.  You can't quote your young-earth, no-death-before-the-fall general authority statements and expect them to mean anything to me.  Even in the Church statement, on the DNA and the book of Mormon on the Church website acknowledges the fact that the Asian DNA in Native Americans comes from people that were in America long before the time of Adam.  That is on the Church website.  You see, it is simply not as simple as quoting general authorities on these matters.

 

Elder James Talmage, "The Earth and Man", published by the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, reprinted in the Deseret News, November, 21, 1931:

 

"According to the conception of the Geologists, the earth passed through ages of preparation, to us unmeasured ad immeasurable, during which countless generations of plants and animals existed in great variety and profusion and gave in part the very substance of their bodies to help form certain strata which are still existent as such.  The oldest, that is to say the earliest rocks thus far identified in land masses reveal the fossilized remains of once living organisms, plant and animal.  The coal strata, upon which the world of industry so largely depends, are essentially but highly compressed and chemically changed vegetable substance.  The whole series of chalk deposits and many of our deep-sea limestones contain the skeletal remains of animals.  These lived and died age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation."

 

I'm sure that you look to the book Jesus the Christ for "doctrine", do you not?

[MormonFreeThinker]

Now it's your turn.  Please cite two quotes from Apostles on the Church website that indicate that these statements are incorrect (or even possibly incorrect).

 

Sure, the fact that "no blood" before the Fall is not found in the scriptures or official church statements. Official Doctrine resides in the scriptures or official church statements. 

 

Why was the "no blood" before the Fall removed from the LDS Bible Dictionary? 

Edited December 21, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[DragonLancer]

Sure, the fact that "no blood" before the Fall is not found in the scriptures or official church statements. Official Doctrine resides in the scriptures or official church statements. 

 

Good point.  However, in my personal beliefs, I do not find a conflict between the idea that Adam was a son of God without blood and immortal at first before the fall, and the idea that there were other men on the planet already that originated in Africa through the processes described in scientific theory.  The two are not in conflict.  Adam did not have to originate as an "earthly" being.  His descendants after the fall simply could have intermarried with people they were genetically compatible with.  Genetic compatibility doesn't prove common origin.  The human species is a hybrid species between many species, including the one that came from heaven and was placed here as a colony in Missouri.

Edited December 21, 2014 by DragonLancer

[cinepro]

Sure, the fact that "no blood" before the Fall is not found in the scriptures or official church statements. Official Doctrine resides in the scriptures or official church statements. 

 

Why was the "no blood" before the Fall removed from the LDS Bible Dictionary? 

 

DragonLancer said that "we could get into a your GA quote vs. someone else's".  This meant that one person would quote some GA's on a subject, and then someone else would quote other GA's countering the original point.  I accepted that invitation, and the proper response in the context of his challenge (or claim) would be to quote GA's in official, current Church publications that contradict my GA quotes.

 

Pointing out places where there aren't such quotes is kind of the opposite of what DragonLancer was saying.  After all, if there's one thing I've learned from apologists it's that "absence of evidence is evidence of absence"!

 

But if you and DragonLancer want to admit that on this subject there are supportive GA quotes, and no contradictory GA quotes, that's fine too.

Edited December 22, 2014 by cinepro

[cinepro]

Quoting to me statements that establish that Adam was in a state where he did not have blood doesn't prove anything for the rest of the creatures on the planet.

 

I guess we just have to figure out what Joseph Fielding Smith meant by "all other creations"?

I'm sure that you look to the book Jesus the Christ for "doctrine", do you not?

That's a good question. Is it still an "official Church publication"? I suspect there is a lot in that book that modern LDS (especially LDS New Testament scholars) don't agree with, so that would be an interesting discussion.

Regardless, I remain interested to see if there are any statements in any current Church publications (let's say anything found on the Church website) that acknlowedges the possibility of physical death on the planet before the Fall of Adam.

[Rob Osborn]

Once again- if the flood was a global event, then the geologic column is accounted for by the flood and evolution from common descent is false and all those long ages disappear.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[MormonFreeThinker]

Once again- if the flood was a global event, then the geologic column is accounted for by the flood and evolution from common descent is false and all those long ages disappear.

 

There are some young Earth theorists that believe in common descent. 

 

 

Pointing out places where there aren't such quotes is kind of the opposite of what DragonLancer was saying.  After all, if there's one thing I've learned from apologists it's that "absence of evidence is evidence of absence"

 

The burden of proof falls on you, you need to prove that it is official doctrine. Where is it in the scriptures or official church statements? 

 

1981 edition of the LDS Bible dictionary 

"The fall of Adam is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood. There was no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations."

 

2013 edition 

"The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children"

 

Why that change?

Edited December 22, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[cinepro]

The burden of proof falls on you, you need to prove that it is official doctrine. Where is it in the scriptures or official church statements? 

 

1981 edition of the LDS Bible dictionary 

"The fall of Adam is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood. There was no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations."

 

2013 edition 

"The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children"

 

Why that change?

The burden of proof for what?  I'm simply pointing out that the "no blood before the fall" teaching has been taught by Apostles in Conference, and in the currently Church-published "Doctrines of the Gospel" CES Manual. 

 

Although I'm not sure that the current wording of the Bible Dictionary does you any favors anyway.

 

After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

 

Fall of Adam and Eve

 

Death

Two kinds of death are spoken of in the scriptures. One is the death of the body, which is caused by the separation of the body from the spirit; “The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26). The other is spiritual death, which is to die as pertaining to, or to be separated from, righteousness—to be alienated from the things of God (Alma 12:16, 32; 40:26). Both of these deaths were introduced into the world by the Fall of Adam. But death is also the consequence of our own sins. We make our own spiritual death by our works, our thoughts, and our actions. As Paul said, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), and some are “dead” while they live (1 Tim. 5:6).

 

---------------------------------------

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 6:48).

[MormonFreeThinker]

Although I'm not sure that the current wording of the Bible Dictionary does you any favors anyway.

 

It probably will be deleted soon 

 

The burden of proof for what?  

 

Okay, so do you agree that "no blood" before the Fall is not official doctrine of the church? 

Edited December 23, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[thesometimesaint]

 

I guess we just have to figure out what Joseph Fielding Smith meant by "all other creations"?

That's a good question. Is it still an "official Church publication"? I suspect there is a lot in that book that modern LDS (especially LDS New Testament scholars) don't agree with, so that would be an interesting discussion.

Regardless, I remain interested to see if there are any statements in any current Church publications (let's say anything found on the Church website) that acknlowedges the possibility of physical death on the planet before the Fall of Adam.

 

Unfortunately he is no longer with us. but even if he was we don't believe any mortal to be infallible. It is entirely possible for JFS as well as any other mortal to be in error on any given subject.

 

Actually that isn't the qualification for what is doctrine of the Church

SEE http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

 

And http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Death_before_the_Fall

 

Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting 2 Nephi 2:22

Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting this verse by considering only how it affected Adam and Eve. For example, from 2010 Gospel Principles manual, page 28:

Adam and Eve were not yet mortal. In this state, "they would have had no children" (2 Nephi 2:23). The statement "there was no death" applies to the Garden of Eden, which is what the paragraph is describing. There is no statement in the manual that there had been no death anywhere in the entire world. There has been a difference of opinion among Church leaders on the extent to which immortality affected God's creations before the Fall.

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, “they would have had no children” (2 Nephi 2:23). There was no death. They had physical life because their spirits were housed in physical bodies made from the dust of the earth (see Moses 6:59; Abraham 5:7). They had spiritual life because they were in the presence of God. They had not yet made a choice between good and evil.

 

You may also find this interesting. I would suspect that BYU being the Church's flagship university the Church would know what is being taught there.

SEE http://geology.byu.edu/museum/

Edited December 23, 2014 by thesometimesaint