Elements Of The True Church?

[teddyaware]

I love it!  That is an excellent response!

 

But for what it's worth, that is not the only opinion on the translation.

 

Now, for those who care- and I am not one of those- which of all these is "correct"?

You asked "What does it actually say?" THAT is the big question.

There is a reason we believe the Bible "insofar as it is translated correctly" leaving that up to personal revelation for the most part:

 

Parallel Verses

But I appreciate the answer- you have taken a stand and committed to it, and it is a reasonable stance, and I have learned something, thank you.

 

That is what I have been looking for, and now you have given me an answer, and I appreciate it.  I hope there are no hard feelings for my pestering you.

 

That position is consistent with not believing in a central authority structure.  I disagree with it because it implies that prophets speak directly God's words, which I do not believe- I believe their revelations come through their human brains and are personal revelations which come to them because they are in authority, and sometimes may be mistaken. 

 

I do not believe the Bible is perfect in every word, apparently you do.  I would wonder if Gervin feels the same about this.

 

But anyway thanks for the consistent and reasonable answer.

But in the context, it sure looks like Peter is pulling his authority

 

In point of fact, the various translated renditions of 2 Peter 20, supplied by Daniel, greatly bolster the LDS insistence that the New Testament era Church of Christ was a hierarchical organization with living Apostles placed by Christ Himself in the second position of power and authority in the hierarchy of the ecclesiastical structure (the Resurrected Christ is the presiding High Priest and He alone stands in the highest position of authority in the Church). Because the Apostles are living oracles of God (prophetic revelators), Christ is able to effectively guide and direct His Church through them because when these holy men are functioning as prophets, seers and revelators (bringing forth scripture) their words are not their own but are, in reality, the words of Jesus Christ, just as Peter says. So since by divine edict the Apostles cannot put their own personal "spin" on the words that Christ gives them, He is therefore able to directly lead the Church through His own chosen human agents. The Prophet Nephi, who himself was one of the oracles of God, sets forth this principle with wonderful clarity:

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 and if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. (2 Nephi 33)

Edited May 8, 2014 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

 

In point of fact, the various translated renditions of 2 Peter 20, supplied by Daniel, greatly bolster the LDS insistence that the New Testament era Church of Christ was a hierarchical organization with living Apostles placed by Christ Himself in the second position of power and authority in the hierarchy of the ecclesiastical structure (the Resurrected Christ is the presiding High Priest and He alone stands in the highest position of authority in the Church). Because the Apostles are living oracles of God (prophetic revelators), Christ is able to effectively guide and direct His Church through them because when these holy men are functioning as prophets, seers and revelators (bringing forth scripture) their words are not their own but are, in reality, the words of Jesus Christ, just as Peter says. So since by divine edict the Apostles cannot put their own personal "spin" on the words that Christ gives them, He is therefore able to directly lead the Church through His own chosen human agents. The Prophet Nephi, who himself was one of the oracles of God, sets forth this principle with wonderful clarity:

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 and if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. (2 Nephi 33)

I agree.

[danielwoods]

I love it!  That is an excellent response!

 

But for what it's worth, that is not the only opinion on the translation.

 

Now, for those who care- and I am not one of those- which of all these is "correct"?

You asked "What does it actually say?" THAT is the big question.

There is a reason we believe the Bible "insofar as it is translated correctly" leaving that up to personal revelation for the most part:

 

Parallel Verses

But I appreciate the answer- you have taken a stand and committed to it, and it is a reasonable stance, and I have learned something, thank you.

 

That is what I have been looking for, and now you have given me an answer, and I appreciate it.  I hope there are no hard feelings for my pestering you.

 

That position is consistent with not believing in a central authority structure.  I disagree with it because it implies that prophets speak directly God's words, which I do not believe- I believe their revelations come through their human brains and are personal revelations which come to them because they are in authority, and sometimes may be mistaken. 

 

I do not believe the Bible is perfect in every word, apparently you do.  I would wonder if Gervin feels the same about this.

 

But anyway thanks for the consistent and reasonable answer.

But in the context, it sure looks like Peter is pulling his authority

 

OK, thanks! I appreciate your perspective. 

[Vance]

That position is consistent with not believing in a central authority structure.

I suspect that is because he is using the lens of his belief in no central authority to color his own personal interpretation of that verse.  And in so doing he must strip that verse from its context. It is very unfortunate that he doesn't allow the scriptures to speak TO him and provide their own meaning, but rather he must interject his own interpretation into the scriptures.

It is also sad that he doesn't even realize he is doing it.