Evolution And Bricks

[Rob Osborn]

We have separation of Church and State in this country.

 

Neither Science nor Religion are evil. Though certainly both have been used to do evil things. Religion has done extensive evil even in this country to the LDS. I'm too young to remember polygamy but old am enough to have read extensively about what the Federal and State governments did to disestablish the Church because of religious bias against it. Science has been used by evil people for millennia, and until God returns in the flesh. I don't foresee that changing anytime soon.

 

I have no problem with people whom believe in Creationism. Let them worship how, where, when, whom, what if anything they please. As long as I'm allowed the same right. I really don't care, beyond a normal desire to see people become better.

 

Science has not declared war on religion. They've live happily together for millennia. Only when religionists make demonstrably false claims does science come in. The world is flat or it isn't, it didn't suddenly become round(slightly pear shaped) 2000 years ago. Men really have gone into space and landed on the moon. and we didn't find 6ft tall Quakers when we did. The sun doesn't have people on it. There are countless claims made by religionists that just aren't true. That doesn't mean that science is always right. but science is self correcting while religion is unerringly perfect, because it comes from God.

 

Again science can not posit any God or Godlike force and still be science for the reasons I've already stated. Moreover some 40% of all US scientists are Theist, including members of the NCSE. I am personally a scientist and a Theist.

The censorship of God is the overall objective of these groups such as the ACLU and NCSE. Devils advocates. You guys cry whenever antone mention God in speaking of lifes origins.

[Calm]

The censorship of God is the overall objective of these groups such as the ACLU...

Facts would not agree with you:

 

https://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression

[thesometimesaint]

The censorship of God is the overall objective of these groups such as the ACLU and NCSE. Devils advocates. You guys cry whenever antone mention God in speaking of lifes origins.

 

Is it a supernatural ability that God has given you alone to be able to read other people minds contrary to every thing they say and do. I've already said that Mr. Dawkins was being a jerk for doing that to Christians in general, and Mormon's in specific. What does that make you?

 

PS; Just saw Calmoriah's post and I would add http://ncse.com/religion/start

Edited April 18, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[bcuzbcuz]

The censorship of God is the overall objective of these groups such as the ACLU and NCSE. Devils advocates. You guys cry whenever antone mention God in speaking of lifes origins.

Very few governments in the world have chosen to follow the American ideas of threefold division of powers, as is taught in every American school, and to every American child,, through the school system. Yet most of the relatively recent democracies in Europe, and elsewhere in the world, have adopted the idea of separation of religion and state. And for good reason.

Can you show me any relatively modern nation in the world where state and religion are not separated, that have proven successful forms of government? There are reasons the two don't go well together. Democracy doesn't do well when a premise of the government is that everyone must think the same.

[thesometimesaint]

Very few governments in the world have chosen to follow the American ideas of threefold division of powers, as is taught in every American school, and to every American child,, through the school system. Yet most of the relatively recent democracies in Europe, and elsewhere in the world, have adopted the idea of separation of religion and state. And for good reason.

Can you show me any relatively modern nation in the world where state and religion are not separated, that have proven successful forms of government? There are reasons the two don't go well together. Democracy doesn't do well when a premise of the government is that everyone must think the same.

 

What a boring monolithic world this would be if everyone thought the same. UGGGGH 

[MormonFreeThinker]

A lot of evidences that support Evolutio

[Rob Osborn]

Facts would not agree with you:

 

https://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression

Wasn't it Satan himself who said he would save everyone that not one soul would be lost? Wolves in sheeps clothing. The long battle to remove outr national motto "In God We Trust" from all public place has been a main battle of the ACLU. Here is just one such case-

http://acluutah.org/resources/articles-position-papers/item/773-in-god-we-trust-in-our-classrooms

Then of course you have the whole BSA versus ACLU, here a short column-

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/boggess/051112

Then of course we all know about how the ACLU has long fought to remove "one Nation Under God" from our pledge of allegiance. Here is a short article-

https://www.aclu.org/content/aclu-urges-supreme-court-uphold-ruling-removing-phrase-under-god-pledge-allegiance-recited-p

Then of course we all know that they are against Creationism or God in school-

http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2013/05/27/aclu-needs-legislation-to-protect-its-anti-god-religion/

Then of course you can't hang a picture of historical Jesus Christ in a public school either or the ACLU will sue you-

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/03/jesus-portrait-in-an-ohio-school-district-that-the-aclu-was-suing-over-has-been-taken-down/

Just like Satan, I am sure the ACLU has some saving points but under the mask its not all as it seems. The ACLU is against religion and public displays of belief.

[Rob Osborn]

Very few governments in the world have chosen to follow the American ideas of threefold division of powers, as is taught in every American school, and to every American child,, through the school system. Yet most of the relatively recent democracies in Europe, and elsewhere in the world, have adopted the idea of separation of religion and state. And for good reason.

Can you show me any relatively modern nation in the world where state and religion are not separated, that have proven successful forms of government? There are reasons the two don't go well together. Democracy doesn't do well when a premise of the government is that everyone must think the same.

Our Constitution was set up to protect and maintain the free right of religious worship, not the censorship of it in public. It used to be that the mere aknowledgement of "God" was not a "religion" and as such many of the founding Fathers aknowledged that the constitution itself was divinely inspired and that we did indeed have our freedoms because of the Almighty God. Its not about separating religion from government, its the classic case of censoring religion from governement and redefining "religion" and this supposed "separation clause".

[MormonFreeThinker]

I am a faithful LDS

 

*Microcondial DNA proves that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

 

*Elder Talmage wrote, "I do not regard Adam as related to -- certainly not as descended from -- the Neanderthal, the Cro-Magnon, the Peking or the Piltdown man." He wrote that before we had irrefutable DNA evidence. 

Creationists claim that the Cro-Magnon was a deformed human or a different race, but Elder Talmage did not believe the CroMagnon was a modern human, because he did not believe the CroMagnong was related to Adam.

 

*Evidence of human evolution 

[Calm]

/]Just like Satan, I am sure the ACLU has some saving points.

If Satan has some saving points it would be unjust for him to be sentenced to Outer Darkness.

[ERayR]

I am a faithful LDS

 

*Microcondial DNA proves that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

 

*Elder Talmage wrote, "I do not regard Adam as related to -- certainly not as descended from -- the Neanderthal, the Cro-Magnon, the Peking or the Piltdown man." He wrote that before we had irrefutable DNA evidence. 

Creationists claim that the Cro-Magnon was a deformed human or a different race, but Elder Talmage did not believe the CroMagnon was a modern human, because he did not believe the CroMagnong was related to Adam.

 

*Evidence of human evolution 

I have seen evidence but I don't consider it as irrefutable. Irrefutable is awfully strong.

[bcuzbcuz]

Our Constitution was set up to protect and maintain the free right of religious worship, not the censorship of it in public. It used to be that the mere aknowledgement of "God" was not a "religion" and as such many of the founding Fathers aknowledged that the constitution itself was divinely inspired and that we did indeed have our freedoms because of the Almighty God. Its not about separating religion from government, its the classic case of censoring religion from governement and redefining "religion" and this supposed "separation clause".

I appreciate your answer, but you didn't really answer my question. Do you know of any country, that is productive and democratic, where religion and state are not separated? Well, OK, Iran, North Korea, Syria and there's probably more.

But why should the US strive to be like them?

[thesometimesaint]

Our Constitution was set up to protect and maintain the free right of religious worship, not the censorship of it in public. It used to be that the mere aknowledgement of "God" was not a "religion" and as such many of the founding Fathers aknowledged that the constitution itself was divinely inspired and that we did indeed have our freedoms because of the Almighty God. Its not about separating religion from government, its the classic case of censoring religion from governement and redefining "religion" and this supposed "separation clause".

What this has to do with evolution and bricks is beyond me,

 

No it was not. It was designed to be secular, and to allow everyone to practice or not practice any religion they choose. Which God? Are Buddhist(They do not believe in any God) not entitled to practice their religion? The founding fathers did no such thing. They ranged from Atheistic to Congregationalist to Deists. Which makes it all the more remarkable that it is only at the very end of the Constitution it is without any reference to God(A common writing convention of the time). The self same founders wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli that "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,... ".

Religion is very much alive and well in the US. Atheists represent only a tiny fraction of the population. By law and LDS religion we can't use government to establish a religion.

[thesometimesaint]

I appreciate your answer, but you didn't really answer my question. Do you know of any country, that is productive and democratic, where religion and state are not separated? Well, OK, Iran, North Korea, Syria and there's probably more.

But why should the US strive to be like them?

 

North Korea is officially Atheistic. Iran and Syria are both officially Muslim. There are Christians and Jews in both countries. Officially there is no persecution in either, but troubling instances have occurred.

Edited April 18, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[katherine the great]

North Korea is officially Atheistic. Iran and Syria are both officially Muslim. There are Christians and Jews in both countries. Officially there is no persecution in either, but troubling instances have occurred.

(Not to mention the fact that North Korea is neither productive or democratic and that their supreme dictator is worshipped as a god...)

[bcuzbcuz]

North Korea is officially Atheistic. Iran and Syria are both officially Muslim. There are Christians and Jews in both countries. Officially there is no persecution in either, but troubling instances have occurred.

Yes, North Korea is officially atheistic, but it's official name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK). It's name says it is democratic and a republic, neither of which is true. And it's separation of state and the state religion doesn't exist either. Their God is Kim il-Sung. I don't really see any benefits that come from their state and religion being one and the same.

Iran also has an official religion, that surpresses all others,regardless of whether other religions, as you have pointed out, exist there, but are not permitted freedom of religious exercise.

[cdowis]

 

*Evidence of human evolution 

 

As I have posted several times, "The data is irrefutable, but the interpretation of the data is subject to debate."  For example, interpretation is based on critical assumptions.  It assumes that there is no intelligent designer where each organism is placed on the earth within its own sphere or time of creation.  He has no concept that there was a creation process which occurred in definite stages, e.g. plants before animals.  Lower levels of organisms prepared the way for higher or more complex organisms.

 

Of course evolution was certainly involved in this process, but not the driving force.  Like the orchestra, he sees and hears the musicians, but he is unaware of the conductor and the composer.

 

Finally there is the fallacy of expectation.  He sees evolution because he is looking for it.  He simplistically looks at tools and rocks and see evolution of human behaviour and technology over a time line, reality is not so kind to that interpretation.  For example, the evidence of evolution of language simply does not exist. **  Only within the imagination and cartoons can one go from grunts of the cave man to a discussion of physics.  The evolution of tools shows up on his table, but I understand that archaeologists are often surprised by ancient technology, to the point where it cannot be duplicated by modern technology. **

 

** Do not have the references at this time.

[ERayR]

(Not to mention the fact that North Korea is neither productive or democratic and that their supreme dictator is worshipped as a god...)

 

Evolution has reached its pinnacle in the form of North Korea's dictator.  After all how can evolution surpass God.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, North Korea is officially atheistic, but it's official name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK). It's name says it is democratic and a republic, neither of which is true. And it's separation of state and the state religion doesn't exist either. Their God is Kim il-Sung. I don't really see any benefits that come from their state and religion being one and the same.

Iran also has an official religion, that surpresses all others,regardless of whether other religions, as you have pointed out, exist there, but are not permitted freedom of religious exercise.

Jews and Christians communities are alive and well in Iran. though there have been problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran

[thesometimesaint]

Evolution has reached its pinnacle in the form of North Korea's dictator.  After all how can evolution surpass God.

 

I wouldn't call him the pinnacle of evolution more like regression towards the mean like Lucrezia Borgia. Evolution doesn't address God.

[MormonFreeThinker]

"I have seen evidence but I don't consider it as irrefutable. Irrefutable is awfully strong."

 

true, the fossils record is not, but DNA evidence is. 

[katherine the great]

As I have posted several times, "The data is irrefutable, but the interpretation of the data is subject to debate."  For example, interpretation is based on critical assumptions.  It assumes that there is no intelligent designer where each organism is placed on the earth within its own sphere or time of creation.  He has no concept that there was a creation process which occurred in definite stages, e.g. plants before animals.  Lower levels of organisms prepared the way for higher or more complex organisms.

 

Of course evolution was certainly involved in this process, but not the driving force.  Like the orchestra, he sees and hears the musicians, but he is unaware of the conductor and the composer.

 

Finally there is the fallacy of expectation.  He sees evolution because he is looking for it.  He simplistically looks at tools and rocks and see evolution of human behaviour and technology over a time line, reality is not so kind to that interpretation.  For example, the evidence of evolution of language simply does not exist. **  Only within the imagination and cartoons can one go from grunts of the cave man to a discussion of physics.  The evolution of tools shows up on his table, but I understand that archaeologists are often surprised by ancient technology, to the point where it cannot be duplicated by modern technology. **

 

** Do not have the references at this time.

I have to disagree with you on this.  Of course his explanation has to be somewhat simplistic because he is summarizing a time period of millions of years.  I think he does an excellent job of connecting the dots in a concise manner.  We can infer quite a bit about a population by looking at the tools that they used, their burial customs (or absence of), the way they processed their foods, their use (or lack of) fire.  We look at the bones to see if we can find evidence of healing of severe wounds or loss of many teeth that point towards a population that took care of their disadvantaged members, etc.  The inference from engravings that these people were capable of symbolic thought, thus speech is a logical one.  The only physical evidence of speech capacity is the hyoid bone, and it's such a fragile bone that it is rarely preserved.  We know some Neanderthals had it and I believe a partial one was found in an erectus, but neither one was exactly the same as in modern humans and cast doubt as to whether they could speak like we do--their behavior doesn't seem to support it (maybe some Neanderthals.) As to archaeologists being surprised by ancient technology, that is true, but really only as it pertains to modern humans--not to protohumans and thus not to evolution in general.  The only exception I can think of is that there is some evidence of Oldowan tool use among some late Australopithecines who could not be considered human by any standard but are thought to be forerunners of the first members of the genus homo (the far right skulls).

Edited April 20, 2014 by katherine the great

[katherine the great]

I wouldn't call him the pinnacle of evolution more like regression towards the mean like Lucrezia Borgia. 

[Tiki]

If evolution were a fact then it's on-going, thus current human beings are a lower-life form.

This is how stupid the theory of evolution is - a future scientist will dig up your bones and declare you were sub-human.

------

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/11/091124-origin-of-species-150-darwin-human-evolution.html

PREDICTION TWO

Humans Will Continue to Evolve

Other scientists see plenty of evidence that human evolution is far from over.

For instance, a study published last month in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences suggested that women of the future could become shorter and stouter.

A team led by Yale University evolutionary biologist Stephen Stearns found that, due to ovulatory characteristics, shorter, slightly plumper women tend to have more children than their peers. These physical traits are passed on to their offspring, suggesting natural selection in humans is alive and well.

--------

Watch out tall thin people! You're doomed in the future to be classified as a sub-human species!

Edited April 20, 2014 by Tiki

[thesometimesaint]

We've worked very hard at this, and have finally done it. We've created a new species of animal;

Humanus Ludditicus Americanii. Common name is Dumbicans.