Pendulum

[mormonnewb]

There is a big difference between supporting gay marriage and social acceptance of gays. Yes many youth in polls, and in abstract, support SSM but still look upon the individual's as different. There are simply far too many cases to the contrary to support that. Your view on minority youth is it supported by data or conjecture? For instance do you consider the hip hop an rap cultures, hugely influential in minority areas, to be supportive on gays?

My view on minority youth is supported by spending my first 18 years as one and then raising four "minority youths." I'm by no means a "minority youthologist" but I can only guess that by your last post that you are not one either.

FYI ... hip hop and rap culture is not "highly influential" in minority areas. If any, it's just the opposite. Rappers take their cues from "the streets." For example, baggy pants started in prison, moved out to the "hood" and were eventually appropriated by rappers.

That being said, rap is somewhat influential amongst suburban white kids -- the largest PURCHASERS of rap music. They are the ones most likely to emulate the fashions of rappers. After all, you don't think that Jay-Z made $500 million selling overpriced clothing to poor people, do you?

Interestingly, in most cases, the rappers are actually selling these kids an image of what they think will be attractive to the typical suburban teenage boy. Many of the biggest rappers (for example, Drake and Kanye West) have never even been to the ghetto, nevertheless lived there. They aren't "representing" what the hood is really like, they are simply providing a fantasy for a bunch of white kids who aren't going to ever spend any time in the inner city either.

So any homophobia that exists in rap (and it's much less than I think you imagine) is not necessarily influencing minority youth but is much more likely a machismo projection to keep the dollars flowing from their real fan base -- suburban white males.

So what evidence have I overlooked that supports your hypothesis of an enduring hatred of gays by young people, particularly the all-important minority youth contingent?

[jaxenro]

"So what evidence have I overlooked that supports your hypothesis of an enduring hatred of gays by young people, particularly the all-important minority youth contingent?"

 

Sorry let's not make that leap. I never said hatred at all. Nor did I even imply it. I said minority voters tend to be less supportive of SSM and that is supported by evidence and poll nmbers. Women tend to be more supportive men less so. Again poll numbers.

 

I also said people can have differing views on the same subject. Most employing a homosexual slur don't hate gays in the slightest. For a recent rather disgusting example look at the comments by Alec Baldwin. Fully supportive of SSM and all other liberal causes. Yet he also spilled out what would be considered a anti-homosexual tirade as a slur against a non homosexual photographer.

 

I can show you polls where the majority of respondents support two opposing positions within the same poll. Just as I can show you petitions that people signed supporting the banning of hydrogen-dioxide (also called water) as a dangerous chemical. So although I cite polls my respect for them is less than healthy.

 

What I am stating is not that minorities, or youth, hate gays, but that you can't make long term predictions on trends based on current polling on youth positions, which tend to change over time. Also that neither you, or I, can accurately predict long term social trends. Would you have predicted twenty years ago that SSM would be an accomplished fact in your lifetime in America?

 

But hatred? That is a bit of a leap too far and not one I ever suggested.

[jaxenro]

I'm by no means a "minority youthologist" but I can only guess that by your last post that you are not one either.

 

No I did spend quite a bit of time in what I would suppose would be considered low income or inner city areas but they were hispanic in nature. So besides poll numbers I make no claims besides the people I hung with. Some tended to be gang members but more Latin Kings type of stuff. And being white, and older, I doubt it gives me as much insight as you appearantly. A girl I was good friends was the girlfriend of a inner city hispanic girl and they both lived there and I spent considerable time there. So I did get an interesting viewpoint on spending time with a lesbian couple living in the inner city and their interactions with others in the community.

 

Again if I caused you personal offense none was meant. Nor did I mean to imply that minorities are somehow less tolerent than non minorities just that voting patterns show they are less supportive of SSM. I tend to take individuals as individuals regardless of race.

Edited March 19, 2014 by jaxenro

[jaxenro]

Let me ask you this. Suppose the Supreme Court votes to overturn all SSM bans in the country does that end the issue?

 

A little over 40 years ago the Supreme Court votes to overturn all abortion bans in the US, with some exceptions. Did that end the issue? Poll after poll shows Americans slowly moving towards the pro life position, especially youth.

 

Yet the Supreme Courts civil rights decision was decisive, especially Brown. There are no longer any who oppose it as with abortion except a fully (and appropriately) discredited fringe

 

I think the future of SSM will come down to if it is a civil rights issue, as it's supporters claim, or a trendy social issue, as it's detractors claim.

Edited March 19, 2014 by jaxenro

[california boy]

There is a big difference between supporting gay marriage and social acceptance of gays. Yes many youth in polls, and in abstract, support SSM but still look upon the individual's as different. There are simply far too many cases to the contrary to support that. Your view on minority youth is it supported by data or conjecture? For instance do you consider the hip hop an rap cultures, hugely influential in minority areas, to be supportive on gays?

 

Your assumptions of support are pretty far off from reality.

 

 

Record High Support: A 2014 Washington Post/ABC Newspoll shows 59% of voters nationwide support the freedom to marry. 50% or more of Americans in every region of the country support the freedom to marry.

 

• 81% of young adults ages 18-29, regardless of political affiliation, support the freedom to marry. 
• 72% of Democrats said they support marriage, with just 23% voicing opposition, while 62% of Independents said they are supportive, with only 33% opposed.
• 71% of political moderates said they support marriage for same-sex couples, with just 24% opposed. 
• 52% of Republicans and GOP-leaning Independents ages 18-49 said they support the freedom to marry. 
• Overall support for marriage has increased by 17 points since 2004, when 41% of respondents said they were supportive.
• Among Republicans of all ages, support has soared since 2004, with numbers increasing20 points among Republicans ages 50-64 and 16 points among Republicans over the age of 65. 
• 59% of black Americans support the freedom to marry, while 65 percent applauded President Obama's endorsement of marriage from two weeks prior. 

Non-Marriage States: Even in states without marriage for same-sex couples, a majority support the freedom to marry. A December 2013 poll from Anzalone Liszt Grove Research found that 51% of voters living in non-marriage states (at the time, 34 states) support marriage for same-sex couples. Support for marriage is strong in every region of the country - 59% in Central states, 53% in Western states, and opinion is split evenly in the South, with 46% in favor and 46% opposed.  

75% of Americans believe that the freedom to marry is a Constitutional right, a sentiment that spans across parties - including 91% of Democrats, 75% of Independents, and 56% of Republicans.

A Constitutional Question: A 2013 Washington Post-ABC News poll found that by a 2-to-1 margin (64-33%) Americans believe that this question should be decided based on the U.S. Constitution, not left to families to struggle over case-by-case, battle by battle.

Evangelical Millenials: Pollster and Former Romney Director of Data Science, Alex Lundry, found that 64% of self-identifying Evangelical millenials support same-sex marriage. 

Catholics: A New York Times/CBS News poll conducted February 23-27, 2013 shows 62% of American Catholics are in favor of legalizing marriage for same-sex couples.

African Americans: A national Gallup poll conducted November 26-29, 2012 found 53% of African Americans thought marriages between same-sex couples should be recognized officially and should have the same rights as straight married couples.

Hispanics: A Quinnipiac Polling Institute poll conducted February 27-March 4, 2013 showed 63% of Hispanic voters support same-sex marriage.

Republicans: A 2014 Washington Post/ABC News poll shows that support for the freedom to marry crosses party lines, with 40% of Republicans saying they support marriage for same-sex couples, with 23% strongly supportive. Among self-described moderates, support is at 64%, with just 27% opposed. 

In the States: Support for the freedom to marry had increased immensely in all 50 states over the past 8 years. A report from the Williams Institute (PDF) shows that since 2004, there has been an average increase of 13.6 percentage points in support of the freedom to marry in each state.  

[california boy]

Let me ask you this. Suppose the Supreme Court votes to overturn all SSM bans in the country does that end the issue?

 

A little over 40 years ago the Supreme Court votes to overturn all abortion bans in the US, with some exceptions. Did that end the issue? Poll after poll shows Americans slowly moving towards the pro life position, especially youth.

 

Yet the Supreme Courts civil rights decision was decisive, especially Brown. There are no longer any who oppose it as with abortion except a fully (and appropriately) discredited fringe

 

I think the future of SSM will come down to if it is a civil rights issue, as it's supporters claim, or a trendy social issue, as it's detractors claim.

You are comparing apples to oranges.  The debate on abortion centers around the taking of a innocent life.  Real harm can be argued.  Gay marriage is about who can marry.  No one can show any harm, and lots of things can be shown where society benefits.  

 

Is the question of inter racial marriage still open for debate?  Religions including the Mormon church was just as adimately against legalizing inter racial marriage.  Now the church accepts it as being no big deal.

[jaxenro]

No that's about where I would expect them to be

Not many people will say no when asked this anymore it isn't politically correct

It always seems to poll better than it votes

I didn't say you weren't winning the political battle in fact I think I said you won

What I said was you won't know the long term prognosis for 100 to 200 years

Abortion was more supported 20 years ago than today. Conditions change. Winners often resort to hubris and tend to go to far. World opinion is not exactly on your side and manuevers like President Obama's at the Olympics didn't exactly help

Edited March 19, 2014 by jaxenro

[mormonnewb]

No that's about where I would expect them to be

Not many people will say no when asked this anymore it isn't politically correct

It always seems to poll better than it votes

I didn't say you weren't winning the political battle in fact I think I said you won

What I said was you won't know the long term prognosis for 100 to 200 years

Abortion was more supported 20 years ago than today. Conditions change. Winners often resort to hubris and tend to go to far. World opinion is not exactly on your side and manuevers like President Obama's at the Olympics didn't exactly help

 

World opinion is not on the side of gays?  Perhaps, not yet.  But research from Pew seems to indicate that there is a growing acceptance of SSM, at least.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/19/gay-marriage-around-the-world-2013/

 

In 2013 alone, Brazil, France, England, New Zealand and Uruguay all legalized SSM.  At present, most of the countries allowing SSM are in the Americas and Europe.  China and India have yet to come on board (although there have been some rumblings in India).  And there are some countries like Russia and Uganda that are moving stridently in the other direction with regards to gay rights.

 

So it is my no means settled, but if I had to put my money on whether the world community will be following the lead of US/England/France or Russia/Uganda, I'd bet on the former every day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

[jaxenro]

Really? You think the Middle East, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Africa will follow the US on gay rights? China?

[katherine the great]

Really? You think the Middle East, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Africa will follow the US on gay rights? China?

Africa is not a country.  You will have to be more specific.

[jaxenro]

Sudan, South Sudan, Ethopia, Lybia, etc.

Yes South Africa has SSM. South Africa is Also the country where men rape babies as a cure for AIDS.

Let's all agree to meet for five minutes in 200 years and see how it turns out. None of us will know until then

And at the moment it looks like Russia is kicking the US and Europes butt on the world stage

[california boy]

Really? You think the Middle East, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Africa will follow the US on gay rights? China?

China has been steadily moving towards gay marriage for some time now.  They actually legalized gay relationships before the United States did.  While gay marriage is still a ways off, the steady progression towards gay marriage is apparent.  There are social issues that are difficult for China to deal with.  Mostly the only one child policy and the strong desire to have the one son carry on the family name.  But that same policy is part of what is pushing China officials to consider gay marriage in hopes of dealing with the major surplus male population.  Simply put, there aren't even close enough women to go around.

 

I doubt very much it will take 200 years.  I think we can meet in 20 years and see significant progress.

Edited March 20, 2014 by california boy