rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Agreed. I think the only possible way to reach it would be to simply conclude that prophets and apostles dating back to old testament times (at least the days of Abraham) were only expressing their opinions on the matter. Which is fine, but I think that is wrong. Do we still follow the Old Testament?
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Look again. The prophetic authority to speak on behalf of the Lord is Mormonism 101. I am not sure how you get around it or what the church would look like without it. Prophets may receive revelation from the Lord and share it with us. Amos 3:7 does not give prophets the authority to speak on behalf of the Lord.
Mystery Meat Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Prophets may receive revelation from the Lord and share it with us. Amos 3:7 does not give prophets the authority to speak on behalf of the Lord. Fine (I disagree but my point doesn't rest ONLY on that verse). How do you get around the two scriptures in D&C?
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Rockpond, even if you are not satisfied with Amos 3:7 (which I think says exactly what I said it does), please refer to D&C 1:38 and D&C 133:71 for more scriptural support for the proposition that prophets and apostles have the authority to speak on behalf of the Lord. I am not sure how you get around this one. You are inserting language into Amos 3:7 which is not there. 133:71... I have received God's servants and I believe them. 1:38... My understanding of this verse is that it is (as noted in vs 37) referring to the book of commandments that was being published. Section 1, after all, was revealed as a preface to that book. If you are suggesting that it refers to future teachings of the prophets then how do we know when what the prophets say is the word of the Lord, that which "shall all be fulfilled"?
Mystery Meat Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 You are inserting language into Amos 3:7 which is not there. 133:71... I have received God's servants and I believe them. 1:38... My understanding of this verse is that it is (as noted in vs 37) referring to the book of commandments that was being published. Section 1, after all, was revealed as a preface to that book. If you are suggesting that it refers to future teachings of the prophets then how do we know when what the prophets say is the word of the Lord, that which "shall all be fulfilled"? I think you are performing a lot of mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that are. You said you are open to being shown when the Lord's servants have called homosexual sex within marriage a sin. I refer you to Elder Oaks most recent conference talk (he is one such servant).
Mystery Meat Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Elder Oaks said: There are many political and social pressures for legal and policy changes to establish behaviors contrary to God’s decrees about sexual morality and contrary to the eternal nature and purposes of marriage and childbearing. These pressures have already authorized same-gender marriages in various states and nations. Other pressures would confuse gender or homogenize those differences between men and women that are essential to accomplish God’s great plan of happiness. Our understanding of God’s plan and His doctrine gives us an eternal perspective that does not allow us to condone such behaviors or to find justification in the laws that permit them. And, unlike other organizations that can change their policies and even their doctrines, our policies are determined by the truths God has identified as unchangeable.Our twelfth article of faith states our belief in being subject to civil authority and “in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” But man’s laws cannot make moral what God has declared immoral. Commitment to our highest priority—to love and serve God—requires that we look to His law for our standard of behavior. For example, we remain under divine command not to commit adultery or fornication even when those acts are no longer crimes under the laws of the states or countries where we reside. Similarly, laws legalizing so-called “same-sex marriage” do not change God’s law of marriage or His commandments and our standards concerning it. We remain under covenant to love God and keep His commandments and to refrain from serving other gods and priorities—even those becoming popular in our particular time and place. This is an example of a servant of the Lord declaring that homosexual sex within the bonds of marriage is contrary to the Lord's will and plan.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 You said you are open to being shown when the Lord's servants have called homosexual sex within marriage a sin. That is not what I said.
Mystery Meat Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 That is not what I said. My mistake. What you said was you wanted to see where God has spoken on the matter. My reference under Mormon Doctrine as it stands satisfies that same request.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Elder Oaks said: This is an example of a servant of the Lord declaring that homosexual sex within the bonds of marriage is contrary to the Lord's will and plan. Notice how Elder Oaks prefaces his statement: "Our understanding of God’s plan and His doctrine..." It is not a statement of God's will. It is not Elder Oaks providing revelation from the Lord to us. See my question in post #179.
Danzo Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I'm open to being shown where God has spoken on the matter. Hand book 2 (21.4.10)
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 My mistake. What you said was you wanted to see where God has spoken on the matter. My reference under Mormon Doctrine as it stands satisfies that same request. Do we believe that whatever prophets & apostles say is God's will?
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Hand book 2 (21.4.10) The handbook is not scripture. It is also frequently revised... is that consistent with God's will?
Mystery Meat Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Notice how Elder Oaks prefaces his statement: "Our understanding of God’s plan and His doctrine..." It is not a statement of God's will. It is not Elder Oaks providing revelation from the Lord to us. See my question in post #179. I agree it is not revelation...as it has already been revealed and he is stating nothing new, or teaching doctrine that had been lost.
Danzo Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 The handbook is not scripture. It is also frequently revised... is that consistent with God's will? You are opposed to the handbook?
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I agree it is not revelation...as it has already been revealed and he is stating nothing new, or teaching doctrine that had been lost. Great... where was it already revealed?
Danzo Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Do we believe that whatever prophets & apostles say is God's will? Do you believe anything they say?
Danzo Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Do we believe that whatever prophets & apostles say is God's will?If they say something you don't agree with, you say its not scripture Do we still follow the Old Testament? If the scriptures say something, you say we don't follow them. You don't leave much room do you?
Mystery Meat Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Do we believe that whatever prophets & apostles say is God's will? There are plenty of examples of servants of the Lord being wrong (they are human after all). We are given the opportunity to determine if what they teach is true through prayer and personal revelation. I have done this and had one of the most profound spiritual experiences I have had in recent time while reading Elder Oaks' talk, thus confirming his message. You may very well have had an experience of your own that contradicts mine. I am not going to interpret your personal experiences just like you can't for mine. I will say, however, that I think it is dangerous ground to disagree with the teachings of the Lord's anointed (this is not to say that you are a sinner or less of a member then me). The scriptures are full of examples of individuals and civilizations who disagreed with the prophets and thought they knew better (Laman, Lemuel, the Israelites following Moses in the wilderness, etc.). I take comfort in the belief that the Lord will not punish those who with a pure heart and intent followed his anointed even if they were wrong. Is it possible that prophets in the old testament (Abraham was before the Mosaic Law...which was done away), new testament, and modern time are acting on limited light on this matter? In theory yes. But, this is not just one prophet saying this. This is not just modern day prophets saying this. This is multiple prophets, among multiple cultures, saying the exact same thing: that homosexual sex is a sin. In my mind and as I understand how the Lord works, we are as close a we can get without actually sitting down with the Lord to knowing his will on the matter. We can't (technically we can) just pick and chose what we like from the Prophet based on our social, political, and personal affiliations and interests are.
Mystery Meat Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Notice how Elder Oaks prefaces his statement: "Our understanding of God’s plan and His doctrine..." It is not a statement of God's will. It is not Elder Oaks providing revelation from the Lord to us. See my question in post #179. You are really parsing with words here, and it does come across as mental gymnastics and grasping because you desperately want the Lord's will to be different then what has been taught time, and time, and time, and time again. I don't hold that against you, by the way. It would make my life so much easier when interacting with my friends and family that are gay. He is not using the word understanding to mean "As we currently understand God's plan based on the limited information we have..." as you seem to suggest, he is saying "We understand God's plan and His Doctrine, and therefore we cannot yield to societal whims." Therefore, I argue that it is a statement of God's will. Elder Oaks is not providing revelation as this is not new. It has been understood for thousands of years by the Lord's people.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 You are opposed to the handbook? Nope, did I say I was opposed? I keep a copy of both 1 & 2 close at hand for my calling. But I don't conflate them with scripture or revelation.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 If they say something you don't agree with, you say its not scripture If the scriptures say something, you say we don't follow them. You don't leave much room do you? Not true.
Danzo Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if aaprophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your bsins and iniquities, ye are cangrywith him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a dfalse eprophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he ftestifieth that your deeds are evil. 27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: aWalk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a bprophet.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 There are plenty of examples of servants of the Lord being wrong (they are human after all). We are given the opportunity to determine if what they teach is true through prayer and personal revelation. I have done this and had one of the most profound spiritual experiences I have had in recent time while reading Elder Oaks' talk, thus confirming his message. You may very well have had an experience of your own that contradicts mine. I am not going to interpret your personal experiences just like you can't for mine. I will say, however, that I think it is dangerous ground to disagree with the teachings of the Lord's anointed (this is not to say that you are a sinner or less of a member then me). The scriptures are full of examples of individuals and civilizations who disagreed with the prophets and thought they knew better (Laman, Lemuel, the Israelites following Moses in the wilderness, etc.). I take comfort in the belief that the Lord will not punish those who with a pure heart and intent followed his anointed even if they were wrong. Is it possible that prophets in the old testament (Abraham was before the Mosaic Law...which was done away), new testament, and modern time are acting on limited light on this matter? In theory yes. But, this is not just one prophet saying this. This is not just modern day prophets saying this. This is multiple prophets, among multiple cultures, saying the exact same thing: that homosexual sex is a sin. In my mind and as I understand how the Lord works, we are as close a we can get without actually sitting down with the Lord to knowing his will on the matter. We can't (technically we can) just pick and chose what we like from the Prophet based on our social, political, and personal affiliations and interests are. Then you and I agree (mostly). My hope is that we will receive further light & revelation on the matter and, hopefully, God's will for His homosexual children regarding marriage and the eternities.
rockpond Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 You are really parsing with words here, and it does come across as mental gymnastics and grasping because you desperately want the Lord's will to be different then what has been taught time, and time, and time, and time again. I don't hold that against you, by the way. It would make my life so much easier when interacting with my friends and family that are gay. He is not using the word understanding to mean "As we currently understand God's plan based on the limited information we have..." as you seem to suggest, he is saying "We understand God's plan and His Doctrine, and therefore we cannot yield to societal whims." Therefore, I argue that it is a statement of God's will. Elder Oaks is not providing revelation as this is not new. It has been understood for thousands of years by the Lord's people. For me, it comes across as mental gymnastics to believe that we have any revelation on this subject. I see no attempt in Elder Oaks' address to identify it as God's revealed will. I fail to see your basis that it has been "understood for thousands of years by the Lord's people". Especially as a member of the LDS church, you'll note that it is not mentioned in any of the canonized books of scripture that are unique to our faith.
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