What Are The Critical Arguments For The Production Of The Plates?

[MormonMason]

1827 - 1829 was not the time period for the Kirtland Banking scandal, which is what the statement was about that you replied to.

It relates to the additional, implied claim that Joseph Smith could have fabricated the plates and had the know-how to do it.  I know when the Kirtland Period was and Joseph Smith did not have many skills at that early period that he acquired later, later than 1827-1829, which is the full Book of Mormon translation period (if we count the 116 lost pages, that is).  And, Joseph Smith didn't even engrave the plates used for this enterprise, so what was the entire point of your claim? They were outsourced the engraving of the plates and the plates were brought to Kirtland by Oliver Cowdery.

Edited September 10, 2013 by MormonMason

[savedbygrace]

These are very serious accusations, and this is a formal CFR.

 

It's a fair call Iriemon, if you have the references, or even a guess at where you have seen these things then you should reference

[MormonMason]

WHat I am referring to, as you know about I am sure, were the bank executives who testified in court later on, that Joseph Smith and Rigdon lined boxes with coins on top, with fake money....AKA: Sand, lining the bottoms. I know those here don't trust an apostate testimony. However, there was more than one, and for those who think that it was somehow suspicious that no one seemed to mention this while the bank was going on...well it should be obvious that if you have a financial interest in the bank, and if Joseph Smith said that by revelation in the Millennial Star that the bank was approved by god, and not only that but would swallow up other banks. Anyone invested in the bank surely would want the bank to be successful, and would not be in a hurry to hang Joseph Smith out to dry. When the Bank DID fail, and everyone lost their money, i'm sure the attitude changed among JS's followers. THey were promised in the name of God, and when that did not happen, of course they came forward. Apostates or not, fact remains, he was arrested and had many angry people whom he promised the venture would make them all rich.

You neglected the very important exception clauses that also were made as parts of those statements he made.  Afterward, people were embezzling moneys from the bank and not running in righteousness, and even Oliver Cowdery began counterfeiting moneys.  Did people really expect God's protection when such things were happening? And did they expect it to continue even when the US Panic of 1837 occurred, and affected even Kirtland, OH, as outside banks refused the markers and currency in favor of specie? Many banks went under all over the existing US during that time.  Why not bring up such details? Were you even aware of those details? If you were, that is pretty disingenuous of you not to mention such things for readers here.

[Sleeper Cell]

So God took the plates back because Joseph couldn't be trusted to preserve them. Is that your argument?

 

 

There is a big difference between not wanting to unnecessarily subject someone to severe temptation and not trusting them. “Lead us not into temptation,” and all that …

 

Since we are just speculating, another consideration might be the problem of providing long term security for 60 lbs of gold plates. Also, the last thing Joseph Smith and his followers needed was an additional incentive for potential mobs.

 

BTW, who owned the Hill Cumorah at the time Joseph removed the gold plates? If he still had them in his possession, would it have been possible for the landowner to sue for their return?

[Sleeper Cell]

Faith is needed to believe either way. The criticism though, stems from the similarity to what others might do to hood wink people. 

 

 

We live by faith no matter what, that doesn't change no matter what happened, or with how much evidence we have or don't have. However, when someone says that "the dog ate my homework", or "angels took back the plates", either way it sounds fishy. 

 

So does some guy saying: “I destroyed the original stone tablets because you guys wanted to sin. But here is a reliable copy which I made myself.”

[danielwoods]

So does some guy saying: “I destroyed the original stone tablets because you guys wanted to sin. But here is a reliable copy which I made myself.”

 

Well, if I followed the guy through a parted Red Sea, then I'd probably believe that guy. 

[cdowis]

I remember someone mentioning that recently a forensic audit was conducted of the financial records for the Banking Society.  Didn't get the details, only that Joseph Smith was cleared of any misconduct.

 

Perhaps someone can give us a reference to that study.

 

The history of that time period is very interesting.  Banks were allowed to issue their own currency.  I understand this was before the Federal Reserve was established.

Edited September 11, 2013 by cdowis

[Scott Gordon]

Before you start becoming too critical of the Kirtland Safety Society, I believe you should make yourself familiar with this article:

 

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/KSS.pdf

 

Scott

[cinepro]

It relates to the additional, implied claim that Joseph Smith could have fabricated the plates and had the know-how to do it.  I know when the Kirtland Period was and Joseph Smith did not have many skills at that early period that he acquired later, later than 1827-1829, which is the full Book of Mormon translation period (if we count the 116 lost pages, that is).  And, Joseph Smith didn't even engrave the plates used for this enterprise, so what was the entire point of your claim? They were outsourced the engraving of the plates and the plates were brought to Kirtland by Oliver Cowdery.

 

 

That's a valid point.  Joseph Smith was just an uneducated farm boy growing up on the western frontier.  Where would such a boy learn how to "make things" or work with his hands?  That's just crazy talk!

[MormonMason]

That's a valid point.  Joseph Smith was just an uneducated farm boy growing up on the western frontier.  Where would such a boy learn how to "make things" or work with his hands?  That's just crazy talk!

And, where, pray tell, did Joseph Smith learn the art of metalworking? If he knew how to do it, why outsource the job to another city when it came time to make the plates for the Kirtland Safety Society?  It rather is crazy talk to attribute to Joseph every skill necessary to make an hypothesis fit the details.  Joseph Smith was a day laborer, not a metallurgist.  He did farm work, ditch digging, tree chopping, log splitting, and like things.  Kids typically learned such metalworking skills from their fathers and there is no evidence of such being the case for Joseph.  It also goes against the grain of facts for those who knew him personally.  He had not credit enough to purchase even enough lead (one of the cheapest of metals to obtain in Joseph's day) to make a set of plates in the first place, even if he did have the skills to make a set of plates and engrave them.  But there is zero evidence of that.

 

One has to make that sort of thing up because one has no other way to make sense of the witnesses when one wants to reject the thesis underlying the witnesses.  Joseph must have been a pious fraud so he must also have been endowed with the ability to make fake plates of metal to convince witnesses to believe in his pious fraud, as well as must have been gifted with the knowledge of a thousand printed volumes in order to create his pious fiction.  Now that is crazy talk!

Edited September 12, 2013 by MormonMason

[cdowis]

And, where, pray tell, did Joseph Smith learn the art of metalworking? If he knew how to do it, why outsource the job to another city when it came time to make the plates for the Kirtland Safety Society?  It rather is crazy talk to attribute to Joseph every skill necessary to make an hypothesis fit the details.  Joseph Smith was a day laborer, not a metallurgist.  He did farm work, ditch digging, tree chopping, log splitting, and like things. 

 

 

No he wasn't.  He was a avid historian, specializing in the ancient middle east.  He spent most of his time in the Palmyra library studying Hebrew, Egyptian and Akkadian languages, culture and geography.

 

Between his studies, treasure digging, court trials, and writing pious fiction, he had very little time for farming

Edited September 12, 2013 by cdowis

[Dan Vogel]

And, where, pray tell, did Joseph Smith learn the art of metalworking? If he knew how to do it, why outsource the job to another city when it came time to make the plates for the Kirtland Safety Society?  It rather is crazy talk to attribute to Joseph every skill necessary to make an hypothesis fit the details.  Joseph Smith was a day laborer, not a metallurgist.  He did farm work, ditch digging, tree chopping, log splitting, and like things.  Kids typically learned such metalworking skills from their fathers and there is no evidence of such being the case for Joseph.  It also goes against the grain of facts for those who knew him personally.  He had not credit enough to purchase even enough lead (one of the cheapest of metals to obtain in Joseph's day) to make a set of plates in the first place, even if he did have the skills to make a set of plates and engrave them.  But there is zero evidence of that.

 

One has to make that sort of thing up because one has no other way to make sense of the witnesses when one wants to reject the thesis underlying the witnesses.  Joseph must have been a pious fraud so he must also have been endowed with the ability to make fake plates of metal to convince witnesses to believe in his pious fraud, as well as must have been gifted with the knowledge of a thousand printed volumes in order to create his pious fiction.  Now that is crazy talk!

You don't understand my position at all. Since I believe the evidence shows that the eight witnesses saw the plates with spiritual eyes, it was unnecessary for JS to make plates to pass visual inspection. The whole idea that no one could see them but only feel them through the cloth was for that very reason. Does it make any sense for JS not to let his family see the plates? No. JS therefore need only to make plates that could be felt through the cloth. It would have been easy to cut out plates from tin or iron, punch three holes along one edge, and then bend iron rods into rings.

[MormonMason]

You don't understand my position at all. Since I believe the evidence shows that the eight witnesses saw the plates with spiritual eyes, it was unnecessary for JS to make plates to pass visual inspection. The whole idea that no one could see them but only feel them through the cloth was for that very reason. Does it make any sense for JS not to let his family see the plates? No. JS therefore need only to make plates that could be felt through the cloth. It would have been easy to cut out plates from tin or iron, punch three holes along one edge, and then bend iron rods into rings.

What makes you think I was addressing your position? I was restating the position of some with whom I have had contact.  If I had been addressing your position, I would have stated your name.

 

And, besides that, you do not seem to address the statement of Martin Harris that Joseph Smith had not credit enough for purchase even of so much weight in lead as for any other metal to fabricate a set of plates.  If you do, I seem to have missed it and apologize.

Edited September 13, 2013 by MormonMason

[thesometimesaint]

You don't understand my position at all. Since I believe the evidence shows that the eight witnesses saw the plates with spiritual eyes, it was unnecessary for JS to make plates to pass visual inspection. The whole idea that no one could see them but only feel them through the cloth was for that very reason. Does it make any sense for JS not to let his family see the plates? No. JS therefore need only to make plates that could be felt through the cloth. It would have been easy to cut out plates from tin or iron, punch three holes along one edge, and then bend iron rods into rings.

 

The testimony of the eight makes no mention of spiritual eyes.

 

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

 

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun.

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen.

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

[cinepro]

I remember someone mentioning that recently a forensic audit was conducted of the financial records for the Banking Society.  Didn't get the details, only that Joseph Smith was cleared of any misconduct.

 

Perhaps someone can give us a reference to that study.

 

The history of that time period is very interesting.  Banks were allowed to issue their own currency.  I understand this was before the Federal Reserve was established.

 

 

This would be of interest:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/08/27/216125279/episode-421-the-birth-of-the-dollar-bill

[MormonMason]

This would be of interest:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/08/27/216125279/episode-421-the-birth-of-the-dollar-bill

Thank you.  That actually is some very useful and more readily available information.

[AndyDnom]

Do any people who believe the plates really existed wish they weren't taken away? that they were available for explanation? Is anyone glad they were taken away? Why or why not?

[Mike Reed]

Anyone know where Dan published that notion?

I have to laugh too.

Could Joseph even afford to buy the tin?  How did he keep the seller quiet?  Where did he learn blacksmithing?  Just how "easy" would that have been?  The manufacture of thin sheet tin of uniform size and in sufficient quantity to fool those who felt (thumbed) the pages through muslin, would be difficult enough -- aside from the weight problem (too light) -- but to leave them alone with various people in the house and not expect them to take a peek?  C'mon!!

And nobody talked?  Whoever heard of such a scam in which no one ever talked?

 

And a gnome says that it would have been easy for him to do?

I researched the availability of tin a while back.  Going from memory here (I may still have some notes on file somewhere): Tin was the Tupperware of the early 19th century, and was shipped in from england in pre-cut sheets. You'll remember that the plates were said to be the thickness of "common tin", not only further supporting the possibility that they may have indeed been made of tin after all, but also stresses the fact that tin was indeed "common."  Anyhow... Purchasing such sheets would not have been so suspicious. No blacksmithing skills would have been needed.  Just some good sheers to cut the tin; perhaps found in the Smith family cooper shop (used to cut the metal hoops for barrels).  The "fool who felt the pages through muslim" also said that the pages were pliable like thick paper.  I've never before bent sheets of any metal that felt like thick paper.  How about you?  Some folks also doubt accounts asserting that Joseph Smith left the plates laying around vulnerable to be peeked at.  Needless to say, Joseph Smith had a locked chest for them (specially made for the the plates), and even threatened folks that they would die if they observed them.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

How about these "ancient" metal records? http://www.withoutend.org/leaden-books-sacromonte-granada-spain/

Edited September 14, 2013 by Mike Reed

[cdowis]

Do any people who believe the plates really existed wish they weren't taken away? that they were available for explanation? Is anyone glad they were taken away? Why or why not?

 

Why were the stone tablets of Moses taken away?  Where are they?  Do we not need them to prove that the finger of Jehovah wrote them?

 

Are you glad the stone tablets are gone?

[cdowis]

 

The testimony of the eight makes no mention of spiritual eyes.

 

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

 

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun.

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen.

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

 

 

I have discussed this with Dan, and he has no satisfactory explanation on why, as an award winning historian, he conflates the stories behind the three witnesses with that of the eight.  He prefers second and third hand accounts, rather than the first hand statement of the witnesses.

That they actually handled the plates, looked at them individually and saw the engravings.... his silence is thunderous.

 

This is no supernatural vision -- no angel, no voice of God.

 

Perhaps you can succeed in dragging out some sort of cogent explanation from him.

Edited September 15, 2013 by cdowis

[cdowis]

I researched the availability of tin a while back.  Going from memory here (I may still have some notes on file somewhere): Tin was the Tupperware of the early 19th century, and was shipped in from england in pre-cut sheets. You'll remember that the plates were said to be the thickness of "common tin", not only further supporting the possibility that they may have indeed been made of tin after all, but also stresses the fact that tin was indeed "common."  

 

 

Clearly the eight witnesses would have detected the pretense when they examined the plates.  Of course, Vogel vividly imagines that they saw them with something called spiritual eyes (he gives no clarification of this term, but assumes that the reader knows what that means), they did not touch the plates at all, so there was no necessity of any manufactured plates at all -- just a vivid imagination.

 

Now, if I have mischaracterized his position, perhaps he would be willing to clarify it.  What exactly are spiritual eyes, why did you assume that they lied when they said that they handled the plates and looked at individual pages and the writings.  Does viewing with spirit eyes include holding the plates in your spirit hands and arms?

 

So many unanswered questions.

Edited September 15, 2013 by cdowis

[Robert F. Smith]

Dan Vogel has a great article discussing this.

 

Does that make sense that an apostle would suddenly leave the church if Martin hadn't really stated he and the others had only seen them with their spiritual eyes?

In another, we have Joseph's own brother William stating:

 

Dan Vogel has a degree in history, and can be expected to know (even if he sometimes forgets) that professional historians and courts of law find hearsay evidence suspect.  It is always useful to consider hearsay testimony (such as that of Burnett), but very dangerous to do so without consideration of possible ulterior motives.

 

Even the manner in which a historian lays out the evidence (selection and presentation) has a great deal to do with his own predilections.  Thus, even for professionals, it is the community of scholars -- and not one single scholar -- which determines for us what is likeliest to have happened.  Even then, we need to consider the broadest possible set of factors in assaying which version of reality is most acceptable.  I don't see you taking that into account here, omni.

[Mike Reed]

Clearly the eight witnesses would have detected the pretense when they examined the plates.  Of course, Vogel vividly imagines that they saw them with something called spiritual eyes (he gives no clarification of this term, but assumes that the reader knows what that means), they did not touch the plates at all, so there was no necessity of any manufactured plates at all -- just a vivid imagination.

 

Now, if I have mischaracterized his position, perhaps he would be willing to clarify it.  What exactly are spiritual eyes, why did you assume that they lied when they said that they handled the plates and looked at individual pages and the writings.  Does viewing with spirit eyes include holding the plates in your spirit hands and arms?

 

So many unanswered questions.

Spiritual eyes could merely be an imaginative process identified as spiritual seeing.  It really isn't that complicated to understand.  There was all sorts of highly imaginative experiments of consciousness and spiritual seeing going on at the time.  I disagree with Dan, as I believe that they saw plates... but I do so for different reasons than you present.  I don't think that my thesis undermines his argument in any significant way.  Our theses merely propose different theories and cite different evidence.  I don't think it is an open and shut case in the slightest, and I am perplexed as to why you find Dan's thesis so faulty. It is perfectly reasonable... especially since it gives a natural explanation, and does not rely on supernatural assumptions.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Mike Reed

[Robert F. Smith]

As did Martin Harris.  He put Joseph to the test at every opportunity.  I highly doubt that he would have escaped Harris' tests had he been perpetrating a fraud.

 

There are many things of interest in the way of the witnesses, particularly those who became enemies of Joseph Smith and never "spilled the beans" or "let the cat out of the bag," as it were--even in their anger against Joseph Smith and the Church over tossing them out on their rear ends.  No conspiracy of fraud could survive something like that in my opinion.

 

But, then there are interesting little things that come up in studying the Book of Mormon text that really make one pause for thought.  The growing numbers of such things should give pause to anyone before condemning the book as a pious fraud on the part of Joseph Smith.  One I was just thinking about today while reading my scriptures, and having a marginal note that I added years ago catch my eye again today, is the following.

 

In Isaiah 13:3, the verse ends with the words: "for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness."

In 2 Nephi 23:3, the verse ends with the words: "for mine anger is not upon them that rejoice in my highness."

 

Want to know the difference between these two partial sentences if both were set side-by-side in Hebrew?

 

Isaiah 13:3c: לאפי עליזי גאותי

2 Ne. 23:3c: לא אפי על־עליזי גאותי

 

What would account for such a difference is either haplography in the later Hebrew manuscripts of Isaiah (after the brass plates version was translated to Egyptian and written) or dittography in the Hebrew text that underlay the Egyptian translation on the plates of brass.  But, Joseph Smith knew no Hebrew at that time whatsoever.  How would he know to do something like that with the English text that actually would work and have a probable cause in underlying Hebrew? Or, was this just a cosmic coincidence? Things that make one go, "Hmmm..."

Very perceptive, Mason.  And there are many more such examples.

 

Almost thirty years ago, in volume one of the first edition of my Book of Mormon Critical Text (FARMS, 1984), I suggested in the footnote to this particular line that the loss evident in the Massoretic Text was caused by a double haplography during transmission.  One can only see that through knowledge of the Hebrew text.

 

I have in preparation a third edition of that very useful tool.