Nancy Rigdon

[Nevo]

However, one needs to be careful there as well.  I checked out one reference they gave for Helen Mar Kimball which neglected to state that it was not a firsthand source but one from an anti-mormon publication where it was claimed she shared intimate feelings with someone who would not naturally be a confidant.

 

I think you're referring to Catherine Lewis's account, which the FAIR Wiki basically writes off as an anti-Mormon fabrication:

 

Anti-Mormon 'confession'?

Critics also provide a supposed "confession" from Helen, in which she reportedly said:

I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.^[7]Compton properly characterizes this source, noting that it is an anti-Mormon work, and calls its extreme language "suspect."^[8] This was written in 1848. Yet, Helen was married in 1842, and was gone by 1845. So, at almost-15 she's "young," but by 1845 (by the latest) she's now "not young"? This sounds suspiciously like fabrication.

 

George D. Smith tells his readers only that this is Helen "confiding," while doing nothing to reveal the statement's provenance from a hostile source.^[9] Newell and Avery tell us nothing of the nature of this source and call it only a “statement” in the Stanley Ivins Collection;^[10] Van Wagoner mirrors G. D. Smith by disingenuously writing that “Helen confided [this information] to a close Nauvoo friend,” without revealing its anti-Mormon origins.^[11]

 

To credit this story at face value, one must also admit that Helen told others in Nauvoo about the marriage (something she repeatedly emphasized she was not to do) and that she told a story at variance with all the others from her pen during a lifetime of staunch defense of plural marriage.^[12]

 

I think FAIR gets this one badly wrong. I have to wonder if the author has even read Catherine Lewis's account.

 

Lewis says she lived at the Kimball home in Nauvoo for twelve weeks in 1845. During her stay, she says " was treated respectfully by all the inmates. Mrs. K. treated me as a sister" (see Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons [Lynn, MA: n.p, 1848], 7). While living at the Kimball home, Lewis says she overheard the following:

 

"I heard her say to her mother, 'I will never be sealed to my Father (meaning as a wife) and I would never have been sealed (married) to Joseph, had I known it was any thing more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. I say again, I will never be sealed to my Father; no, I will sooner be damned and go to hell, if I must. Neither will I be sealed to Brigham Young.'" (Narrative, 19)

 

Lewis prefaces this recollection by noting that "the Twelve took Joseph's wives after his death. Kimball and Young took most of them; the daughter of Kimball was one of Joseph's wives," providing the context of Helen's complaint.

 

I don't find anything inherently implausible with the substance of Lewis's account (recognizing, of course, that this isn't a transcript of Helen's actual words). In any case, FAIR's objections to the Lewis account don't hold water. Helen doesn't "confess" her feelings to an anti-Mormon confidant. She's complaining to her mother. That Helen was an outspoken defender of plural marriage during the 1880s doesn't rule out episodes of teenage rebellion. She admits as much in her later reminiscences.

 

LDS historian J. Spencer Fluhman offers the following assessment: "Some aspects of Lewis’s account are not credible, but given Helen’s admission of youthful rebelliousness against polygamy, the episode might constitute what she came to later regard as youthful “foolishness.” Helen’s final conversion to the principle came after a period of prolonged illness during the trek to Utah in 1848" (see note 36).

Edited August 31, 2013 by Nevo

[Calm]

Have you read the actual Narrative source?

Edited August 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nevo]

Have you read the actual Narrative source?

 

Yes.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Nevo

[Calm]

Thank you. I found it on the internet eons ago, then couldn't find it after that so was going off of memory.

 

add-on:  my memory says I have been confused by a poor citation of Lewis' comment years ago so that I was under the impression her comments were being secondhand reported by William Linn rather than him quoting something she actually published.  As to the ME quote, my book is put away and google doesn't offer the footnotes...plus I've got a killer migraine right now and can't see straight anyway.  It is possible I have misunderstood due to the original misunderstanding, I will have to check back later when my books are dug out and my head is on straight to see if I can remember exactly what my problem was and if it is still valid in my view.

Edited August 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

My head has cleared enough to remind me that one of my problems (the? problem possibly) with the ME account is that it makes it appear that the quote is directly from either Helen or her mother.  It does not make clear that it is being reported by a third person, Catherine Lewis, in her anti-mormon tract.  Now this doesn't mean the quote isn't accurate more or less (I highly doubt it was verbatim unless Catherine had perfect recall since there was possibly a gap of 5ish years between the claimed conversation and her reporting it), just that I feel some caution should have been added rather than presenting its acceptability as a given, which I feel they did.

Edited August 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

 

I think you're referring to Catherine Lewis's account, which the FAIR Wiki basically writes off as an anti-Mormon fabrication:

 

 

I think FAIR gets this one badly wrong. I have to wonder if the author has even read Catherine Lewis's account.

 

Lewis says she lived at the Kimball home in Nauvoo for twelve weeks in 1845. During her stay, she says " was treated respectfully by all the inmates. Mrs. K. treated me as a sister" (see Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons [Lynn, MA: n.p, 1848], 7). While living at the Kimball home, Lewis says she overheard the following:

 

"I heard her say to her mother, 'I will never be sealed to my Father (meaning as a wife) and I would never have been sealed (married) to Joseph, had I known it was any thing more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. I say again, I will never be sealed to my Father; no, I will sooner be damned and go to hell, if I must. Neither will I be sealed to Brigham Young.'" (Narrative, 19)

 

Lewis prefaces this recollection by noting that "the Twelve took Joseph's wives after his death. Kimball and Young took most of them; the daughter of Kimball was one of Joseph's wives," providing the context of Helen's complaint.

 

Anytime I see a quotation that has a recollection of an event such as this, and it is not from helen herself, I become a little suspect of it. I would have no idea if something has been left out or if the recollection is correct or if helen ever said such a thing. But such a quotation can easily play into the hands of antimormons and critics who would most likely accept it as complete truth or as shock value. I think that we would call it gossip or eves dropping. Usually such gathering of information can not be accepted at face value.

[why me]

 

LDS historian J. Spencer Fluhman offers the following assessment: "Some aspects of Lewis’s account are not credible, but given Helen’s admission of youthful rebelliousness against polygamy, the episode might constitute what she came to later regard as youthful “foolishness.” Helen’s final conversion to the principle came after a period of prolonged illness during the trek to Utah in 1848" (see note 36).

At the end of the day, this is what is important when it comes to helen. She became converted to the principle through her own spiritual experiences. However, this is downplayed by critics because it doesn't have the necessary shock value for members.

[why me]

And this reasoning is the weak link in this awesome compilation of data and sources.  There is way too much reliance on lack of evidence as evidence.  That Compton/Bergera/Hales are critiquing each other for doing exactly what they do themselves should give fair warning as to the reliability of conclusions based on what is admittedly sparse information.  The place to go to find anything from Emma's perspective is Mormon Enigma. 

I would think that if emma heard such a rumor about her husband asking nancy to marry him, she would go to nancy herself. They knew each other and most likely nancy had been over the house often. Both Joseph and Sidney had a close relationship so I can only assume that emma would know where to go to confirm such a rumor.

 

One more thing doesn't add up. Joseph would usually ask a family member before making a plural marriage proposal. In this case however, it seems to be lacking.

[Calm]

I would think that if emma heard such a rumor about her husband asking nancy to marry him, she would go to nancy herself. They knew each other and most likely nancy had been over the house often. Both Joseph and Sidney had a close relationship so I can only assume that emma would know where to go to confirm such a rumor.

What difference would that make?Was Emma prone to making public scenes? Or would she be more likely to try and keep it in the family to protect her and her family's reputation?

The society of that time wasn't so prone to splash family squabbles all over the news. They would likely view reality shows dealing with personal issues as insane asylumns consisting of the dregs of society.

Edited August 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Nevo, is there confirmation that Catherine Lewis was taken in by the Kimballs?

[Nevo]

Nevo, is there confirmation that Catherine Lewis was taken in by the Kimballs?

 

I am not aware of any document that shows this, although something may exist somewhere. Connell O'Donovan has done a massive amount of research on Boston-area Saints from this era and has an extensive write-up on Catherine Lewis (see here, pp. 163–177, under the name "Catherine Ramsdell"). He does not furnish any proof that she lived with the Kimballs, but he shows that she was well-known to Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young. They had stayed at her home during a stopover in Lynn, MA, in July 1844, and Lewis was a close acquaintance of Young's daughter Vilate and his plural wife Augusta Adams Cobb. Lewis received her endowment at the Nauvoo temple on 22 December 1845 as part of the second endowment company. According to William Clayton's journal entry for 30 December 1845, she was a dancing partner of Heber C. Kimball at a temple social that evening.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Nevo

[why me]

What difference would that make?Was Emma prone to making public scenes? Or would she be more likely to try and keep it in the family to protect her and her family's reputation?

The society of that time wasn't so prone to splash family squabbles all over the news. They would likely view reality shows dealing with personal issues as insane asylumns consisting of the dregs of society.

Going directly to the Rigdons would not be splashing family affairs all over the news. It would just be going to an old friend and ask them directly. Also, since the Rigdons were put out by the proposal, the chances of emma finding out from the horse's mouth would be possible.

[Calm]

I am not aware of any document that shows this, although something may exist somewhere. Connell O'Donovan has done a massive amount of research on Boston-area Saints from this era and has an extensive write-up on Catherine Lewis (see here, pp. 163–177, under the name "Catherine Ramsdell"). He does not furnish any proof that she lived with the Kimballs, but he shows that she was well-known to Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young. They had stayed at her home during a stopover in Lynn, MA, in July 1844, and Lewis was a close acquaintance of Young's daughter Vilate and his plural wife Augusta Adams Cobb. Lewis received her endowment at the Nauvoo temple on 22 December 1845 as part of the second endowment company. According to William Clayton's journal entry for 30 December 1845, she was a dancing partner of Heber C. Kimball at a temple social that evening.

So what do you make of the difference in tone and expectations in her expose and in the letters we have of hers?