thesometimesaint Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 Because, I endured some pretty horrific trauma at the hands of a "father" figure, and it poisoned my life in unspeakable ways until Heavenly Father rescued me. I believe I see the same sort of damage in him. Without psychoanalyzing someone via long distance. It is merely projection to claim your response must be someone else's. Address the points Mr. Dawkins makes and leave the rest alone. Believe me there is more than enough to debate with concerning his beliefs and/or the lack there of.
EllenMaksoud Posted August 31, 2013 Author Posted August 31, 2013 Without psychoanalyzing someone via long distance. It is merely projection to claim your response must be someone else's. Address the points Mr. Dawkins makes and leave the rest alone. Believe me there is more than enough to debate with concerning his beliefs and/or the lack there of.I find your assessment of my comment to be rather arrogant.
thesometimesaint Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 I am the most humble person you're likely to meet. Just ask me. I'm not dismissing your sad experiences. It must have been really hard on you. What I am saying is that your experiences don't necessarily apply to others.
EllenMaksoud Posted August 31, 2013 Author Posted August 31, 2013 I am the most humble person you're likely to meet. Just ask me. I'm not dismissing your sad experiences. It must have been really hard on you. What I am saying is that your experiences don't necessarily apply to others.Um well, sorry for my impertinence. I had just returned to the forum to apologise, so it was most pleasant to find your reply to me to feel more compassionate. Thank you. I think that projection can be useful; saving much time in reasoning things through. I must admit that I key strongly off, tone of voice, vocabulary, and facial expression. When I heard Dawkins speak on the existence of God, he was so cold, sarcastic and mean spirited that I decided that it would be a cold day in ___ when I would take this man seriously. Just saying ...
mfbukowski Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 I watched several debates recently between Dawkins and another British scientist. He admitted that he would be prepared to consider believing in a greater force that was the power being the creation of life. But he particularly rejected the God of the Abrahamic religions.I'd love to see him do a few rounds with a well informed Mormon scientist and historical apologist. Some of his arguments against Mormonism are frustratingly weak.Totally agree. The problem is that Dawkins has no concept of other theories of truth than the Correspondence theory. He has no philosophical education that I can tell nor does he fullly understand views other than his own. I have posted this before and probably will do it again, but this video just makes Dawkins' points ridiculous. Incidentally, Rorty is also an atheist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjhVk-0Vhmk 1
Questing Beast Posted September 1, 2013 Posted September 1, 2013 His attacks on Mormonism undermine him, because they're so ill-informed. It's like he's read the first couple of pages of anti-Mormon website and moved on. It's not possible, in his mind, that God visited Joseph, so everything else is a fraud.The atonement doesn't have to be about a small god who lacks intellect. Instead even Dawkins should be able to understand the power of symbols. Of course God didn't have to send his son to atone (or himself incarnate depending on your Christian perspective). The message and implications of the atonement is powerful as a concept and symbol. There could well have been many mechanics for teaching judgement and mercy. Grace and agency. But the one selected was impactful enough to influence billions to accept and embrace it.I agree, the symbolism is the most powerful to date used in religion. I suspect that if you could sit Dawkins down for five minutes and ask these questions and demand a straight yes or no answer before moving on, that we would find a believer, a very angry, disappointed believer, who really wants to "beard God in his lair" over the state of this world: Question One: Does Existence require a Cause or explanation? Two: Is our finite intelligence as great as that Cause of Existence or its intelligence? Three: Is the implied intelligence inherent in Existence at all interested in the world of humans? Four: Is the purpose of our existence in the world of humans to be joyful? Five: Do you think that it is possible that such a purpose as becoming joyful has the active interest of that intelligence that caused the world of humans to exist?
EllenMaksoud Posted September 1, 2013 Author Posted September 1, 2013 I agree, the symbolism is the most powerful to date used in religion. I suspect that if you could sit Dawkins down for five minutes and ask these questions and demand a straight yes or no answer before moving on, that we would find a believer, a very angry, disappointed believer, who really wants to "beard God in his lair" over the state of this world: Question One: Does Existence require a Cause or explanation? Two: Is our finite intelligence as great as that Cause of Existence or its intelligence? Three: Is the implied intelligence inherent in Existence at all interested in the world of humans? Four: Is the purpose of our existence in the world of humans to be joyful? Five: Do you think that it is possible that such a purpose as becoming joyful has the active interest of that intelligence that caused the world of humans to exist?Upon reading your post, I realize that in the years in which I was going to Honduras, Kenya and Israel, I felt that good works would change the world. on my last trip out, to Kenya, I found such abject poverty that it broke me. Coming home to fat, spoiled America was so disappointing and disillusioning. It would take a while, but in a few years, I would realize that by trying to "help" God in fixing the world in the wrong spirit, I had committed serious sin, perhaps a very serious one. I agree with you that perhaps Dr Dawkins is simply very mad, and like me does not realize that he is questioning the work of God in this world.
thesometimesaint Posted September 1, 2013 Posted September 1, 2013 Um well, sorry for my impertinence. I had just returned to the forum to apologise, so it was most pleasant to find your reply to me to feel more compassionate. Thank you. I think that projection can be useful; saving much time in reasoning things through. I must admit that I key strongly off, tone of voice, vocabulary, and facial expression. When I heard Dawkins speak on the existence of God, he was so cold, sarcastic and mean spirited that I decided that it would be a cold day in ___ when I would take this man seriously. Just saying ... No problem. I find him a rather pompus jerk myself. I believe Hell is cold, and dark. Where the evil gnaw on the bitter ends of their plans to overthrow God.
Questing Beast Posted September 1, 2013 Posted September 1, 2013 Who wants to overthrow God? I have never met such a person. Dawkins seems thoroughly pissed at God, and he's hardly alone! My favorite scene in Forrest Gump is when he and Lt Taylor are aboard their shrimp boat during the hurricane, and Taylor has climbed the mast and is screaming at and challenging God, thoroughly pissed and ready to die facing God down. Of course, it is catharsis instead, and so it is or must be with all of us, in due time....
thesometimesaint Posted September 1, 2013 Posted September 1, 2013 The Devil and his angels. See Sons of Perditionhttp://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Sons_of_Perdition
Questing Beast Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Well, "they" hardly count, being metaphysical beings at best, and metaphorical beings most likely. I have never "met" the devil or any of his angels....
thesometimesaint Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Well, "they" hardly count, being metaphysical beings at best, and metaphorical beings most likely. I have never "met" the devil or any of his angels.... Unfortunately I have. Pretty sick individuals.
Questing Beast Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 (edited) Unfortunately I have. Pretty sick individuals.That's provocative. You've actually "met" the devil and (some of) his angels? Please share. I knew an elder on my mission, he was from Aussie, and he declared in lurid detail the "vision" he had of evil spirits in his room on several occasions, I was skeptical then and disbelieving now. I heard two Maori sisters give a detailed account of their shared experience cleaning the local chapel, how one was thrown physically from the organ bench, how the chapel filled with a stink, how they heard heavy footsteps in the cultural hall and yet when they looked around the corner as the footsteps stopped just on the other side of the doorway, they saw nothing. They went and got an elder to come and use his priesthood to cleanse the building. Etc. and etc. My mother has a story from her young womanhood living in an apartment with her sisters, and how they felt like they were watched all the time by a malign presence. Their uncle came to visit and without any prompting from the girls he said, "This place is possessed by an evil spirit." They told him stories and he cast the evil spirits out with a priesthood blessing, etc. and etc. What I think is going on is group influence through expectation. There are unseen entities in the "metaphysical realm", and some are happy and some are opposite, and some are willfully disobedient to what they know because they have not yet learned to find their way toward Joy; they have "issues". But I do not believe in "the devil and his angels" a la the biblical rebellion in heaven and casting out due to losing "the war in heaven", etc. That ID of evil behind all the bad things that people do is a rather late slant on evil vs good. It seems from Job (a much earlier story) that the devil is more like a man with a role, part of the role-play that is necessary to create opposition for mortals to learn from. I don't see a logical way around the difficulty of God creating beings that are fundamentally flawed such that they fail. Or worse yet, that the devil is outside of God's influence or control. That does not suit my imagination of the most powerful Being possible to conceive of. "God" does not create evil, "God" creates opportunities, and we learn from the choices we can make, no exceptions, end stop.... Edited September 2, 2013 by Questing Beast
thesometimesaint Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 The psych ward of prisons is a good place to start. What God does with them is up to God. But I'm perfectly happy to leave some of them there for the rest of their lives.
Questing Beast Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 That's fine with me too. I am for capital punishment also for predators that are one hundred percent guilty of serial crimes. But I don't consider any of them, not even the horrifying man in Idaho a few years back, as "angels to the devil". I consider them as sick, or at least very confused minds. "Sick" is only temporary to this venue anyway, and confusion from sickness goes away as soon as the sickness is removed. To what extent an immortal mind can become confused by mortal experiences is a subject for discussion without resolution, it will all be opinion and perspective. But I think that my cosmic world view is better than one that asserts that the "devil and his angels" were uncaused spirits like all the rest, but are fundamentally flawed to want evil in the place of good. That begs the question of blame for existence, which I cannot ignore....
thesometimesaint Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 I'm not using sick in the medical/psychological sense of the word. Though there are plenty of those. I belive that our spirits are without begining. Satan didn't have to choose evil(Lucifer was called the son of the morning). But evil was his choice.
Questing Beast Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 I'm not using sick in the medical/psychological sense of the word. Though there are plenty of those. I belive that our spirits are without begining. Satan didn't have to choose evil(Lucifer was called the son of the morning). But evil was his choice.Our spirits are only "without beginning" in the sense that the Cause or Existence is without beginning, and nothing is "made" outside of that Existence. We are all derived from Existence as Cause. That makes "God" ultimately to blame if any "soul" chooses evil forever. "God" caused such souls to be, to inherit nothing more than evil as their choices. And then the problem of evil existing makes "God" into a monster. This is core to people like Dawkins hating religion. And I agree with them as far as that conclusion goes: it is unsupportable. To facilely state that "spirits are without beginning" and going no further is a cop-out....
thesometimesaint Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 God isn't malevolent. But we sure can be. While the Gospel isn't a democracy it is helpfull to think in those terms. God always votes for you, Satan always votes against you, and you breaak the tie.
Questing Beast Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Nicely put. But it doesn't address the problem of the existence of evil outside of God's influence or cause, making GtF infinitely less than all powerful, which is a great heresy to believe, which is one of the main reasons Mormons cannot be Christians, at least orthodox or mainstream, which is what so many Mormons want to be seen as, including Hinckley and Monson. Mormon theology is not Christian in any sense of the word, for this reason, and because Christ to Mormons is a brother "god", making us as much a part of the pantheon of gods as the godhead....
Tacenda Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Nicely put. But it doesn't address the problem of the existence of evil outside of God's influence or cause, making GtF infinitely less than all powerful, which is a great heresy to believe, which is one of the main reasons Mormons cannot be Christians, at least orthodox or mainstream, which is what so many Mormons want to be seen as, including Hinckley and Monson. Mormon theology is not Christian in any sense of the word, for this reason, and because Christ to Mormons is a brother "god", making us as much a part of the pantheon of gods as the godhead....I was listening to a radio program while camping out of town. It wasn't religious but brought up that Eve ate the fruit of good, evil & knowledge. And the gentleman on the radio program said she believed the lie told by Satan, to know knowledge to be a God. So if true, then are we in for a big surprise if there really is no progession to be Gods and Goddesses? And is this really a lie from Satan?
Erin15 Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 The arguments should be looked at on their own to determine their value.In theory this is the ideal, but the reality is that this almost never occurs in real life. We are all very emotional creatures. As a rule we humans almost always decide what we want to believe and then seek out evidence to support it, rather than forming our opinions based on the evidence. Only by setting aside our pride and giving way to the spirit can we break that cycle and find truth. 1
Brian 2.0 Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 I agree its not easy to escape our biases. The scientific method is also a great tool to help in trying to determine truth.
Erin15 Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 I agree its not easy to escape our biases. The scientific method is also a great tool to help in trying to determine truth.I know this is just semantics, but the way I always perfer to say it is thusly: The scientific method determines facts, not truth. Facts as based on what we can prove with our limited knowledge and tools, truth is given to us and is based on eternal and infinate windom. 1
Questing Beast Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 I was listening to a radio program while camping out of town. It wasn't religious but brought up that Eve ate the fruit of good, evil & knowledge. And the gentleman on the radio program said she believed the lie told by Satan, to know knowledge to be a God. So if true, then are we in for a big surprise if there really is no progession to be Gods and Goddesses? And is this really a lie from Satan?We are already sons and daughters of God, the Bible teaches this and there is no reason to play it down and make ourselves less than we are. Sons and daughters of parents grow to emulate their parents, generation by generation forever, for immortals. I think that Mormonism portrays this better than any other dogmatic religion I know of. I have issues with the whole "intelligences have always existed like matter and cannot be made", etc. This makes GtF out to be one of us, just "more intelligent than they all" according to the PoGP, i.e. JS. That is not the sort of concept I can worship. I don't expect to worship my "Father and Mother"....
thesometimesaint Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Nicely put. But it doesn't address the problem of the existence of evil outside of God's influence or cause, making GtF infinitely less than all powerful, which is a great heresy to believe, which is one of the main reasons Mormons cannot be Christians, at least orthodox or mainstream, which is what so many Mormons want to be seen as, including Hinckley and Monson. Mormon theology is not Christian in any sense of the word, for this reason, and because Christ to Mormons is a brother "god", making us as much a part of the pantheon of gods as the godhead.... God will force no man to be good or bad. Which is evil? Create something that has no choice but to do evil; or allow for evil choices, and the ability to repent. I'm not going to get into sectarian differences in Christians. Such is a loose/loose proposition. We are Christians, and no amount of sanctimonious chest beating by other Christians is going to change that.
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