Predestination. You Asked For It Here It Is.

[Calm]

If God is following laws already set then this instantly shows that He is not the only God and that He is following a pattern set by who knows who, at who knows whenn.

 

Unless the laws are due to the nature of what his eternal environment is and not due to God or any other being creating them.

 

I don't want to use the term "universe" because I believe God created that, so whatever totality of existence the universe is part of (a multiverse perhaps) has existed for God to exist within eternally.....that can only exist because it had laws which define its form.  No one created its laws, because it was never created, it (whatever "it" is) has always existed.  Therefore there does not have to be any other God greater than God the Father nor does it have to mean that he is merely following a pattern set by another....though that is one of the possibilities associated with an eternally existing totality of existence.

[Calm]

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

To sin is to transgress the law, but there are other ways to transgress the law besides sinning.

 

In my view, one can only sin if one is aware of the law.  If one is not aware of the law and breaks it, that is a transgression only.  If one breaks the law knowingly, that is a sin AND a transgression (sin being a subset of transgression, every sin is a transgression but not every transgression a sin).

 

A verse that supports this interpretation:

 

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

 

 

I think a great deal depends on how one interprets the use of "the" in "the transgression".

 

Here are some other versions:

 

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness (NIV)

 

Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness (NRSV)

 

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness (YLT)

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:4&version=NRSV

 

A nice LDS commentary on sin:

 

http://scottwoodward.org/sin_whatisit.html

Edited August 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[MrG]

Unless the laws are due to the nature of what his eternal environment is and not due to God or any other being creating them.

 

I don't want to use the term "universe" because I believe God created that, so whatever totality of existence the universe is part of (a multiverse perhaps) has existed for God to exist within eternally.....that can only exist because it had laws which define its form.  No one created its laws, because it was never created, it (whatever "it" is) has always existed.  Therefore there does not have to be any other God greater than God the Father nor does it have to mean that he is merely following a pattern set by another....though that is one of the possibilities associated with an eternally existing totality of existence.

 

We are still then left with a God that is subject to things external to Himself, which for me raises the same problem.

[MrG]

To sin is to transgress the law, but there are other ways to transgress the law besides sinning.

 

In my view, one can only sin if one is aware of the law.  If one is not aware of the law and breaks it, that is a transgression only.  If one breaks the law knowingly, that is a sin AND a transgression (sin being a subset of transgression, every sin is a transgression but not every transgression a sin).

 

Ok, Genesis 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

Didnt this happen before the fall?

[MrG]

To sin is to transgress the law, but there are other ways to transgress the law besides sinning.

 

In my view, one can only sin if one is aware of the law.  If one is not aware of the law and breaks it, that is a transgression only.  If one breaks the law knowingly, that is a sin AND a transgression (sin being a subset of transgression, every sin is a transgression but not every transgression a sin).

 

A verse that supports this interpretation:

 

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

 

This supports the opposite of what you are saying, as in if you know to do something right, its a sin not to, but it does not support what you are saying, which is its not a sin if you do something wrong which God says is wrong,

 

Romans 1:20-23

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 

Humanity is left without an excuse, our nature is darkened and we are by nature children of wrath. (Ephesians 2:3) our good works are actually filthy to God in this sinful state (Isaiah 64:6).

 

My argument is unless you are righteous in the sight of God you can do nothing which is acceptable to Him. 

[bluebell]

The video is just a visual presentation of the verses in Luke.

Thanks Cal. 

 

It drives my hubby nuts that I never watch the videos that he thinks are interesting and which he points out to me, but I'd much rather read about something than watch something about it.  My biggest pet peeve is when there is an interesting news story brought to my attention online, but there is only a video link available and no write up! 

[Five Solas]

Hey Erik, I know you said that you have limited time to post, but when you do get the chance, could you answer some of the questions that have been asked specifically of you in other threads?

(Maybe you already have and I just haven't seen those yet. In that case, I thank you. )

 

Methinks you didn't appreciate my ending with a citation from the Catholic Catechism back on the "I Choose to Believe" thread, bluebell.  No, I don't usually end my thread involvement with an appeal to authority (and that one is particularly uncommon)--but I felt the exception was justified.

;0)

 

Not to step on this excellent thread, but if you had something else in mind, you'll need to point me to it. 

 

--Erik

[bluebell]

Methinks you didn't appreciate my ending with a citation from the Catholic Catechism back on the "I Choose to Believe" thread, bluebell.  No, I don't usually end my thread involvement with an appeal to authority (and that one is particularly uncommon)--but I felt the exception was justified.

;0)

 

Not to step on this excellent thread, but if you had something else in mind, you'll need to point me to it. 

 

--Erik

Erik, I didn't realize that you felt you were ending with a citation from the Catholic Catechism and that I should take that as the final word for some reason.  Sorry. 

 

Other posters, myself included, continued to engage your criticisms in that thread with specific counter points and questions which we believe illustrate the weakness of your argument.  Perhaps you did not return to see them and maybe you don't want to try to answer them, which is fine.  They are located on page 5 of that thread if you are interested. 

 

I promise no more thread-jacking on this thread.....   

[Calm]

Ok, Genesis 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

Didnt this happen before the fall?

Depending on how someone interprets what happened in the fall (I prefer the second version though I would say the first also applies to a certain extent)...

 

1) But the very tree (or act of breaking God's law) was what gave real knowledge of what good and evil meant so this may be an exception to the rule.  Adam and Eve would have been like children in the sense of not being able to fully understand the implications of what they were doing.  Once the tree gave understanding of good and evil, they could then be held accountable by the laws for their actions...at least for those things they knew the laws for....

 

2) Or because they ate of the tree in order to follow other commandments of the Lord it was not counted a sin to them, just as killing someone would not be a sin if someone does it in self-defense or to protect the innocent (thus fulfilling the commandment to 'love thy neighbour as thyself') is not seen as as a sin even though one is doing the exact same action as a murderer does in taking the life of another.

[MrG]

Depending on how someone interprets what happened in the fall (I prefer the second version though I would say the first also applies to a certain extent)...

 

1) But the very tree (or act of breaking God's law) was what gave real knowledge of what good and evil meant so this may be an exception to the rule.  Adam and Eve would have been like children in the sense of not being able to fully understand the implications of what they were doing.  Once the tree gave understanding of good and evil, they could then be held accountable by the laws for their actions...at least for those things they knew the laws for....

 

2) Or because they ate of the tree in order to follow other commandments of the Lord it was not counted a sin to them, just as killing someone would not be a sin if someone does it in self-defense or to protect the innocent (thus fulfilling the commandment to 'love thy neighbour as thyself') is not seen as as a sin even though one is doing the exact same action as a murderer does in taking the life of another.

 

I guess im not the only one that cant take texts for what they say then.

[Calm]

This supports the opposite of what you are saying, as in if you know to do something right, its a sin not to, but it does not support what you are saying, which is its not a sin if you do something wrong which God says is wrong,

 

Why would it need to be pointed out that when one knows something is good and does not do it, it is a sin if every form of not doing good was a sin?

 

Or do you believe that "sins of omission" are only sins if one has knowledge of what one should do, but it is not a sin if one doesn't have the knowledge?  I don't see it that way myself as if it is the law (good to do something) and one does not follow the law whether by doing or not doing, I would call it a transgression or breaking of the law.  Thus it is knowledge that makes it sin, not whether it is an act of doing or withholding from doing.

 

For example, if God commands us to love our neighbour and we withhold our love (indifference), but do not dislike or even hate (thus not acting in the sense of the commandment), we have still broken God's word, have we not?  Is this not a transgression as well as if we were to actively dislike our neighbour?

[MrG]

Why would it need to be pointed out that when one knows something is good and does not do it, it is a sin if every form of not doing good was a sin?

 

Or do you believe that "sins of omission" are only sins if one has knowledge of what one should do, but it is not a sin if one doesn't have the knowledge?  I don't see it that way myself as if it is the law (good to do something) and one does not follow the law whether by doing or not doing, I would call it a transgression or breaking of the law.  Thus it is knowledge that makes it sin, not whether it is an act of doing or withholding from doing.

 

For example, if God commands us to love our neighbour and we withhold our love (indifference), but do not dislike or even hate (thus not acting in the sense of the commandment), we have still broken God's word, have we not?  Is this not a transgression as well as if we were to actively dislike our neighbour?

 

I think Gods standard is set, and whether someone knows it or not they are subject to it, hence ALL have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory (Romans 3:23) no one seeks God (Romans 3:10-11), without the drawing power of Gods electing grace (getting back to topic) no one would be saved. So predestination is not a horrible thing its actually making it possible for anyone to be saved at all.

 

Adam and Eve broke Gods standards that had clearly been set to them, and sinned and so started the fall which brought death to the world (Romans 5:12) which was by no means a good thing.

[Calm]

I guess im not the only one that cant take texts for what they say then.

It seems to me it is a matter of interpretation because I believe I am taking texts to mean exactly what they say, though in doing so I am looking at the full context that has been given us through scripture, not the verse in isolation.

 

For example God himself teaches that knowledge of good and evil came after eating of the tree:  

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...

 

 

And while I don't expect you to take into account what LDS scripture teaches, I certainly do....

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/5.16?lang=eng#15

 

 

 

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

 10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think Gods standard is set, and whether someone knows it or not they are subject to it, hence ALL have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory (Romans 3:23) no one seeks God (Romans 3:10-11), without the drawing power of Gods electing grace (getting back to topic) no one would be saved. So predestination is not a horrible thing its actually making it possible for anyone to be saved at all.

 

Adam and Eve broke Gods standards that had clearly been set to them, and sinned and so started the fall which brought death to the world (Romans 5:12) which was by no means a good thing.

I have a different question that all of this Adam and Eve talk has spawned. Was Adam and Eve trangressing part of God's plan or did Satan foil God and God had to make a new plan?

[Calm]

My argument is unless you are righteous in the sight of God you can do nothing which is acceptable to Him. 

 

This is packed full of assumptions that should probably be defined first, but am too busy today to do so, so I will just say that even in accepting this as truth that does not imply that even if God doesn't "accept" what one does or doesn't do, doesn't mean that what he rejects is wrong or a sin.

 

Are you suggesting that anything a man (or woman) does if they are not righteous in the sight of God is a sin?  Even if it is the identical thing that a righteous man does?

 

If not, then I don't see how this applies to judging what is sinful.  If so....well, I just don't see that as logical or demonstrated by the scriptures because that would mean that breaking the law has nothing to do with the law itself but only in whether or not God has made you righteous...assuming here you believe only God makes someone righteous, not a person's acts....if I am wrong, please correct me (it doesn't matter for example if one kills someone or not, just if one is "righteous in the sight of God" or I am assuming you mean, saved by God).

[MrG]

I have a different question that all of this Adam and Eve talk has spawned. Was Adam and Eve trangressing part of God's plan or did Satan foil God and God had to make a new plan?

 

Excellent question, this is also very relevant for the predesination issue. I dont believe for a second that God was surprised at what Adam and Eve did, nor do I believe He wanted them to do it. However I believe that God works all things for good (as many of us do im sure) and so therefore He planned before the beginning of time all of those that He would save in Christ.

 

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

I believe God chose who He would elect in Christ before the foundation of the world, so, before Adam and Eve. God knew exactly (and allowed) what was going to happen and was making His plans in light of that before they happened.

 

That view also puts me in the Supralapsarian camp of Calvinists, more here http://www.gotquestions.org/lapsarianism.html

[MrG]

 

 

Are you suggesting that anything a man (or woman) does if they are not righteous in the sight of God is a sin?  Even if it is the identical thing that a righteous man does?

 

 

 

Not a sin, but useless in terms of your standing before God.

[Calm]

 So predestination is not a horrible thing its actually making it possible for anyone to be saved at all.

 

Predestination that leads someone to saved is certainly a good thing.  Those of us who are protesting predestination are not suggesting otherwise.

 

It is the predestination of the damned that we see as a bad thing in that there is no reason we see besides God's wish to damn them that they are damned.  This contradicts in our view what is taught of God as being a God of pure and infinite love and thus cannot be true.

[MrG]

 but am too busy today to do so, 

 

 

I am gonna be busy for a few days from tommorow so please dont feel I am ignoring you if my responses get slow, I will keep the notification emails and come back later.

[Calm]

Not a sin, but useless in terms of your standing before God.

So what does that have to do with determining if sin is identical to transgression or not?

[Calm]

I am gonna be busy for a few days from tommorow so please dont feel I am ignoring you if my responses get slow, I will keep the notification emails and come back later.

 

[MrG]

Predestination that leads someone to saved is certainly a good thing.  Those of us who are protesting predestination are not suggesting otherwise.

 

It is the predestination of the damned that we see as a bad thing in that there is no reason we see besides God's wish to damn them that they are damned.  This contradicts in our view what is taught of God as being a God of pure and infinite love and thus cannot be true.

 

I understand this contradicts the LDS few like few doctrines ever could, I am ok with that and just enjoying the discussion.

[MrG]

 

It seems to me it is a matter of interpretation because I believe I am taking texts to mean exactly what they say, though in doing so I am looking at the full context that has been given us through scripture, not the verse in isolation.

 

For example God himself teaches that knowledge of good and evil came after eating of the tree:  

 

And while I don't expect you to take into account what LDS scripture teaches, I certainly do....

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/5.16?lang=eng#15

 

 

 

 

 

Well they say God told them not to do it, you said if you knowingly do something God has told you not too, then its a sin. 

[Calm]

Thanks Cal. 

 

It drives my hubby nuts that I never watch the videos that he thinks are interesting and which he points out to me, but I'd much rather read about something than watch something about it.  My biggest pet peeve is when there is an interesting news story brought to my attention online, but there is only a video link available and no write up! 

Same here, but I may look at a link sometimes just to see if there is a summary about it and having seen this was short, I took a quick look to see what it was just for you.  

[Calm]

We are still then left with a God that is subject to things external to Himself, which for me raises the same problem.

I would agree with this from your point of view, though most LDS in my experience see God as choosing to subject himself to the laws, therefore if he has a choice whether or not to accept them, it makes no difference in terms of his greatness whether he created them or not.

Edited August 19, 2013 by calmoriah