Purpose Of Mortality

[Ahab]

How do you explain that conundrum? Matter, mindless as well as intelligent, has simply always drifted about unorganized, until some vast intellect ("greater than all the rest") got his (not her) act together and took human form, then begat children in likeness to himself, oh, I suppose after getting another vast intellect, a female, still puny compared to his intellect, as he has said/asserted, into bodily form like his own, only female gender specific. And this entire process just happened to arise out of "everything [that] has always existed". Depending on how huge your imagination Is, I suppose that's not entirely off the mark: since my concept for "God" (Existence) requires always existing and thus having no cause, the only Cause that is uncaused....

Try harder. The scenario you're depicting isn't the most reasonable one you can imagine, or that can be imagined. Think more along the lines that there has always been not one but many people like our Father and that they have always gone about creating as our Father creates including perpetuating their own species as well as doing what they can to help every other species that has always existed to perpetuate their own species and spread out more and more throughout all of existence.. It's really not that hard to imagine if you'll simply try a little harder to imagine it. Edited July 16, 2013 by Ahab

[Questing Beast]

Try harder. The scenario you're depicting isn't the most reasonable one you can imagine, or that can be imagined. Think more along the lines that there has always been not one but many people like our Father and that they have always gone about creating as our Father creates including perpetuating their own species as well as doing what they can to help every other species that has always existed to perpetuate their own species and spread out more and more throughout all of existence.. It's really not that hard to imagine if you'll simply try a little harder to imagine it.

Incredible. Your mind won't go back far enough to wonder how all those "many people like our Father" exist at all? "They just DO and always have, stop concerning yourself over the cause and effect of it all, 'cause there's no answer to that one." That's what I am getting from you. Instead of "Try harder", you wind up saying "imagine (and go nowhere)".

Mormonism believes in the OT God, i.e. YHWH, "the Word", and who says that his Father shows him all that he does. That's TWO gods up front and center, despite YHWH saying repeatedly that there is only ONE and beside him "no other". Only ONE knows all things and created the world and everything in it, even what we don't see/know; nothing was made without the Word making it. That does not allow for any other gods, period. Along comes Mormonism, and JS says "GtF is a glorified man, has a physical (finite) body of flesh and bone, and his Son also". BY takes it a huge step further, and retreats to the position, "(don't worry about any of that) GtF is the only god with which we have to do". None of that answers the question of why existence includes all of creation including us. Having "Abraham" assert that intelligent matter and common as dirt matter have always existed and cannot be created, helps nothing toward an answer to this question. The non intelligent matter simply exists. Along comes the intelligent matter and organizes the non intelligent matter that was never created. We now have a phenomenon: matter answering to matter forever and submitting to it. Oh, you'll say there was no beginning to any of that, it's how it's always been done. No answer. "Over there is matter (as yet) unorganized, go build another world whereon these spirit siblings of yours may dwell." And when the unorganized matter "runs out"? Oh, that's right, empirical matter is infinite, there is no beginning or end to it, no quantity either, being infinite. No sort of rational answer at all....

Edit to add: If "God" arose out of the intelligent matter that "he" did not create, what's to say that a greater "God" won't do likewise, since matter is infinitely available, which includes intelligent matter? Why are we not worshipping the Source instead of the reaction?...

Edited July 16, 2013 by Questing Beast

[thesometimesaint]

LDS doctrine is that there never was a time when we did not exist.

[CV75]

Now that is a reaction I can ID with, thank you.

Consider the magnitude of "God" for a moment, then rethink what you wrote. "God", being Infinite, and we being finite, are an immeasurable distance apart intellectually, literally and eternally, since Creation continues to expand infinitely with the infinite variety that that implies. How could we possibly KNOW "God"? We can apprehend, but never comprehend, unless we are "taken back" into the whole "mind of God", which, as I proposed already, would effectively eliminate us as finite, sovereign souls. We couldn't ever comprehend the Infinity that is Existence without losing our minds, literally.

"God" appears to not want that, so we have literally limitless opportunities to get to know the "mind of God" a "piece" at a time, each time we strike up a new acquaintance, and proceed into deep friendship forever with that unique soul. The more friends we know the more of "God's mind" we know. Sort of like eating an elephant a bite at a time. The only difference being, that the "elephant" keeps getting bigger the longer we nibble away at it.

If that presents a "sick" outlook, I don't know what else to say. It begins to seem to me, rather, like an eternal occupation that never grows stale or pointless....

I am happy you amended your slant to at least include an element of hope!

"Infinite" is a funny quality: like "loving", it is not a homogeneous quality that is homogeneously applied to the heterogeneity of all existence.

As far as imagining the many ways that you can imagine God to be unknowable are easily addressed by imagining that “with God all things are possible.”

[Questing Beast]

LDS doctrine is that there never was a time when we did not exist.

That would still be true if we were part of "God", whom doctrine states is not bound by time and therefore must be the Instigator of it. If GtF is always existing intelligent matter, a la Mormon style, then he is not the instigator of spacetime, but is bound by it, a wholly inadequate concept for someOne who is omnipotent....

[Questing Beast]

... “with God all things are possible.”

And so if we find ourselves imagining limitations upon "God", we surely need to stop it. Mormonism puts limits on GtF, in text form no less, and then justifies the limitations by our ignorance and a facile, "that is part of the mysteries". In other words, ignore the inconsistencies that you imagine, God the Father will reveal all things in the proper sequence.

But I find such dismissal inconsistent with possession of a 'satiable imagination. It seems to me that we should always press upon the limits of our thus-far imagined concepts for "God". To be content with less than we can imagine is something like laziness or fear....

[Ahab]

Incredible. Your mind won't go back far enough to wonder how all those "many people like our Father" exist at all? "They just DO and always have, stop concerning yourself over the cause and effect of it all, 'cause there's no answer to that one." That's what I am getting from you. Instead of "Try harder", you wind up saying "imagine (and go nowhere)".

I think it seems like I'm going nowhere to you because for some reason you seem to think everything has to be traced back to only one individual person, as if there was one person who started it all. Stop thinking that way, and embrace actual reality. What there is now there has always been and there never has been a time when all that there is has never existed. There have always been many kinds of beings, not only one kind, and certainly not only one of a particular kind. You need to get your mind out of the rut it is in and simply embrace existence as you can see it right now. We, our kind of being, is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence. Always has been and always will be, and there will never be a greater kind of being that will "evolve" at some point in the future. Sure, you and I aren't as perfect as our kind of being can be, yet, but if we work at it we can be the very best that our kind of being can be, with our Father to help us learn how.

Mormonism believes in the OT God, i.e. YHWH, "the Word", and who says that his Father shows him all that he does. That's TWO gods up front and center, despite YHWH saying repeatedly that there is only ONE and beside him "no other".

That ONE is a "kind" of being, though, not only one person. There is only one kind of being which is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, and there is no other because there can only be one kind which is the very best kind. Even now we're head and shoulders above all other kinds of beings, even in our fallen condition. Look at all we can do, compared to all that other kinds of beings can do. No other kind of being is like us, and we're not even as good as our kind of being can be. Look around, and stop thinking the thoughts that prevent you from seeing the forest because of all of the trees you are seeing.

[Questing Beast]

I think it seems like I'm going nowhere to you because for some reason you seem to think everything has to be traced back to only one individual person, as if there was one person who started it all.

Ah, right there you've skipped the track: "God" to my mind is not a "person". "God Is", all persons. The whole of infinitely increasing "humanity" originates nowhere else but from "God".

We can't simply exist as never created matter, some/most of it mindless, but some, for no reason, sentient, yet bereft of godlike attributes.

Stop thinking that way, and embrace actual reality. What there is now there has always been and there never has been a time when all that there is has never existed.

That has to be true: there never was "a time" when "God" did not Exist.

There have always been many kinds of beings, not only one kind, and certainly not only one of a particular kind. You need to get your mind out of the rut it is in and simply embrace existence as you can see it right now.

That is problematic, "Ahab", because what we see right now, we are clearly told, is not reality, but temporary and very low mortality. You cannot safely draw conclusions about Infinity by observing a temporary, fallen, mortal world.

We, our kind of being, is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence. Always has been and always will be, and there will never be a greater kind of being that will "evolve" at some point in the future. Sure, you and I aren't as perfect as our kind of being can be, yet, but if we work at it we can be the very best that our kind of being can be, with our Father to help us learn how.

All of that is faith-based to the max level. I won't attempt to disabuse you of any of it. But I will say that my 'satiable imagination takes me far beyond such a facile set of assertions, and my head almost hurts sometimes thinking too much. But isn't that a good thing? Good stress is good for the soul, which benefits the body too.

That ONE is a "kind" of being, though, not only one person. There is only one kind of being which is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, and there is no other because there can only be one kind which is the very best kind. Even now we're head and shoulders above all other kinds of beings, even in our fallen condition. Look at all we can do, compared to all that other kinds of beings can do. No other kind of being is like us, and we're not even as good as our kind of being can be. Look around, and stop thinking the thoughts that prevent you from seeing the forest because of all of the trees you are seeing.

What if your mind is part of "God's" mind? Willfully created to be unique, and given the gift of free will, then turned loose upon eternity within spacetime. You woke up somewhere and realized that you existed. YOU exist." I AM". And from that point to this, "God" has been part of your thoughts and all your learning, but not "inside" your head, that would be intruding. Your destiny is to succeed. "God" made each of us to be unique, but not in that: we all share the destiny of being successful. It is a Joy (for "God") to watch the limited world within spacetime from infinitely unique perspectives (as each one of us) that only possess finite awareness of the whole.

None of that disagrees in purpose or principle with what you believe "Ahab", it's just a different slant on it. Your view is given by a dogmatic religion, that you have not improved upon an iota, as far as I can tell. My thinking is not intended to replace anything, but to add to it. Any addition that I can keep improves the holistic concept for "God" that I'm working out. I am confident in asserting that this applies to everyone....

Edited July 16, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Ahab]

Ah, right there you've skipped the track: "God" to my mind is not a "person". "God Is", all persons. The whole of infinitely increasing "humanity" originates nowhere else but from "God".

Okay. Perhaps I misjudged what you meant but you seemed to be talking as if you thought there is only one person who is God. Now I'm getting the impression that we're in agreement and that your issue is maybe with the way some people say there are "gods", which also bothers me just a tad until I realize that not everyone is concerned with using politically correct speech to convey the idea.

We can't simply exist as never created matter, some/most of it mindless, but some, for no reason, sentient, yet bereft of godlike attributes.

I agree, but it's still true to say we were never created ih the sense of created from nothing, or that our intelligence was not created or made and indeed can never be. Intelligence has always existed and is already organized even if we don't understand it..

That has to be true: there never was "a time" when "God" did not Exist.

I agree, and God has always existed as more than one person with even more to come as we eternally perpetuate our species.

That is problematic, "Ahab", because what we see right now, we are clearly told, is not reality, but temporary and very low mortality. You cannot safely draw conclusions about Infinity by observing a temporary, fallen, mortal world.

Yes we can, because although what we see now is temporary it is still "like" all there is in all of its glory. Your point is a good point though and I wish more scientists would understand that when they're trying to figure out where we came from based on what they can observe from our current condition. Just wait til they get their eyes opened enough to see what we can know through the faith God can give us.

All of that is faith-based to the max level. I won't attempt to disabuse you of any of it. But I will say that my 'satiable imagination takes me far beyond such a facile set of assertions, and my head almost hurts sometimes thinking too much. But isn't that a good thing? Good stress is good for the soul, which benefits the body too.

I know more than I let on sometimes, too, don't cha know. I was sharing only some of the very basic ideas.

What if your mind is part of "God's" mind? Willfully created to be unique, and given the gift of free will, then turned loose upon eternity within spacetime. You woke up somewhere and realized that you existed. YOU exist." I AM". And from that point to this, "God" has been part of your thoughts and all your learning, but not "inside" your head, that would be intruding. Your destiny is to succeed. "God" made each of us to be unique, but not in that: we all share the destiny of being successful. It is a Joy (for "God") to watch the limited world within spacetime from infinitely unique perspectives (as each one of us) that only possess finite awareness of the whole.

Say that again while substituting the word "mind" with "spirit" and that it's not an intrusion for God to be inside of my head, because inside my head is also a part of God, and that with God I can see the infinite as well as the finite.

None of that disagrees in purpose or principle with what you believe "Ahab", it's just a different slant on it. Your view is given by a dogmatic religion, that you have not improved upon an iota, as far as I can tell. My thinking is not intended to replace anything, but to add to it. Any addition that I can keep improves the holistic concept for "God" that I'm working out. I am confident in asserting that this applies to everyone....

There is quite a bit you can learn from a "dogmatic religion" like ours and not a thing you can add to God's teachings. Your only choice is to be with us or against us, and I don't advise that you work against us because only with us can you be the very best you can be.

[Questing Beast]

It isn't necessary to be "Mormon" in order to be "with you", or else you can start by criticizing Jesus Christ for dissuading his disciples from preventing the one prophesying in the name of Jesus and casting out demons in the name of Jesus, and he was the first one to use that phrase, "they that are not against us are for us". I reckon that "God" can defend his own work and glory. He doesn't need anyone to make those kinds of decisions on who is for or against him....

[Ahab]

It isn't necessary to be "Mormon" in order to be "with you", or else you can start by criticizing Jesus Christ for dissuading his disciples from preventing the one prophesying in the name of Jesus and casting out demons in the name of Jesus, and he was the first one to use that phrase, "they that are not against us are for us". I reckon that "God" can defend his own work and glory. He doesn't need anyone to make those kinds of decisions on who is for or against him....

Whether you are a member of our Lord's church or not, you still only have the choice of being for us or against us.

And yes, he will judge whether or not someone is with us or against us.

[CV75]

And so if we find ourselves imagining limitations upon "God", we surely need to stop it. Mormonism puts limits on GtF, in text form no less, and then justifies the limitations by our ignorance and a facile, "that is part of the mysteries". In other words, ignore the inconsistencies that you imagine, God the Father will reveal all things in the proper sequence.

But I find such dismissal inconsistent with possession of a 'satiable imagination. It seems to me that we should always press upon the limits of our thus-far imagined concepts for "God". To be content with less than we can imagine is something like laziness or fear....

As I mentioned, I am happy you amended your slant to at least include an element of hope!

I’m not sure I understand how one can go about imagining the “unknowableness” of God and then, as a result, discovering and knowing that very “unknowableness,” especially with all His emphasis on becoming one with Him, no matter how much hope is injected into the proposition.

On the other hand, I do see how we can know all things under the right conditions (D&C 88:49), and without our putting limits on God at all. He does, however, describe Himself in certain ways, which serve as “limits” as to what He can and cannot do; what He does and does not do; how he is and how He isn’t.

If He said we can know Him, and yet we cannot, that is still “sick.” Or, if knowing Him is the same as knowing nothing (according to the proposition that He is unknowable), then there is no existence (D&C 93: 24, 30). Which is waaay past "sick," but "dead"!

[Questing Beast]

You over reached yourself, imho. Philosophical ponderings that result in deliberately held conundrums as some sort of "finality" are pointless. So stringing words into such things as "knowing him is the same as knowing nothing then there is no existence", is what I am talking about.

Of course "God" being Infinite will always be outside of full knowledge to a finite mind. If you can imagine and explain how I or anyone else can comprehend that Infinite Mind, and still retain our own identity as a separate being from "God's Mind", I am interested in hearing it.

It's just logical to accept that when "God" says that we can possess "all that the Father has", and be "joint heirs of all the Father has with Jesus Christ", we are not going to ever possess or comprehend the full power of "God In Total". That does not mean that we will never know God, but rather that we will know all that we can accept. "God" apparently relates to each one of us, one on one, at our level, and it pleases "God" to condescend to be each one of us, one on one. How that turns into "there is no existence" is indeed worthy of standing a meaning on its head....

[Ahab]

If you can imagine and explain how I or anyone else can comprehend that Infinite Mind, and still retain our own identity as a separate being from "God's Mind", I am interested in hearing it.

Again, replace the word "mind" with spirit and then realize we can commune with God through that same spirit as we have the spirit of God working with us. It is a mind meld, of sorts, kinda like you might imagine a Vulcan mind meld in Star Trek. We can have the same exact thoughts and feelings God has as we commune with him through the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's just logical to accept that when "God" says that we can possess "all that the Father has", and be "joint heirs of all the Father has with Jesus Christ", we are not going to ever possess or comprehend the full power of "God In Total".

Logical, yes, but not true. Many things which are logical are not true, don't cha know. We are already the same kind of being as God, our Father, and we can develop to have all of the same attributes and powers he has.

[thesometimesaint]

That would still be true if we were part of "God", whom doctrine states is not bound by time and therefore must be the Instigator of it. If GtF is always existing intelligent matter, a la Mormon style, then he is not the instigator of spacetime, but is bound by it, a wholly inadequate concept for someOne who is omnipotent....

According to Scripture we are Gods. We are eternal. If you really want to know what eternity is put your finger in a vice.

Time is only meaningful in a mortal context. So we are not bound by time once we leave this mortal coil. Space-time has no relevance to eternal beings. I would suggest that God the Father is omnipotent in relation to us. In much the same way that we adults are omnipotent in relation our small children.

[CV75]

Philosophical ponderings that result in deliberately held conundrums as some sort of "finality" are pointless.

Thank you for clarifying, because that is what I thoguht you were proposing in teh OP!

[Questing Beast]

... We are already the same kind of being as God, our Father, and we can develop to have all of the same attributes and powers he has.

If you believe that we as separate lower order beings are otherwise the same as GtF, I don't buy it. If you accept that our minds ("spirits" if you prefer) originate with "God's Mind", and are part of creation Caused by "God", then yes, we are precisely the same kind of being as God, because nothing in creation can be otherwise, or alien. All is part of "God" and always has been. There is no way that the created can match the Creator. We are finite in our existence, being Caused. "God Is" not caused.

But concepts are, after all, original to the mind that conceives of them, and we don't have to agree on any of this....

[Questing Beast]

...

Time is only meaningful in a mortal context. So we are not bound by time once we leave this mortal coil. Space-time has no relevance to eternal beings. I would suggest that God the Father is omnipotent in relation to us. In much the same way that we adults are omnipotent in relation our small children.

"Satan is bound and time is no longer", does not mean that time ceases to have context for man. "Time is measured only to man" is true in the world of humans, whether mortal or immortal. I allow that time is very differently "scaled" to immortals than to mortals. We have that concept in the "one day to God is as a thousand years to man" references. But nowhere does it say that for us "all things will be before our faces continually", or that "all of time is as one day to God" will apply to us....