Enos

[tagriffy]

On another thread, I started talking about the story of Enos. I said:

Another story is full of possibilities is Enos 2-18. "I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God." It starts off with a relatively selfish beginning "my soul hungered" and then he has to go on with struggles as he moves on to pray for his fellow Nephites and then finally for his foes the Lamanites before his "soul did rest." Kind of makes you want to ask whether Enos' struggle was with God or with himself.

calmoriah responded:

I would think that anytime one struggles with God, ultimately it is about dealing with one's own issue, not an issue that God has....him being perfect and all.

Rather than derail the original thread, I'd like to continue that discussion here.

I think she has a point that when one struggles with God, it's the person's own issues that are at stake. How about if we suggest that the reason Enos was struggling so much was because God was bringing something to Enos' attention that he had trouble dealing with?

[tagriffy]

Bob has also added in the other thread:

Although no one can locate the reference, Hugh Nibley is supposed to have pointed out that the Hebrew word ʼābaq commonly rendered as "wrestle, grapple" (Gen 32:24-32), also can carry the concept of "embrace" An LDS Semitic scholar recently looked up the Hebrew (which only occurs twice in the Bible) and used WordCruncher to find the same root in Judeo-Aramaic meaning "intertwine, cling, embrace." A friend of mine had his interest aroused by the possibility that this has to do with a holy (temple) rite.

However, it seems just as likely that pondering the matter in one's heart might just as relevant.

What is the other place the word appears in the Bible? I think your friend has an interesting idea, but I rather think that Enos is deliberately invoking the story of Jacob's wrestling with God here. Going back over that story, Jacob is caught between the rock of Laban and the hard place of Esau. He can't go back, and he can't move forward because Esau is in the way. Jacob prays to God, begging Him for help with Esau "because I'm afraid of him" (Gen. 32:11, NRSV). Instead, he winds up in a nightmarish battle with God that leaves him permanently crippled.

Enos' "soul hungered" (v. 4) because of his father's teachings, so he also begins crying to God, all day until night came. And then the stuggles really begin. His desires progressively expand, first to the welfare of his fellow Nephites, and then ultimately to his foes. Only after all that "my soul did rest." Only after after wrestling with God did the way open up for Jacob. Enos himself went on to prophesy and testify of what he had seen and heard. The twist in Enos' story is that unlike Esau, the Lamanites were not so willing to forgive and forget, "their hatred was fixed" (Enos 20).

Edited June 21, 2013 by tagriffy

[janderich]

Note that Enos says, "And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins." His wrestle was not with God but before God. It seems to me that Enos is telling us of his struggle preceeding God for he uses the word "before" twice in the verse. Once, proceeding his remission of sins, and once preceeding God. It could mean that he is sstruggling in the presence of God but I don't think so. Instead he is providing us a path to follow. First, come to the Lord in sincere prayer and repentance then you will receive a remission of your sins, then you will come to God.

[ERayR]

On another thread, I started talking about the story of Enos. I said:

calmoriah responded:

Rather than derail the original thread, I'd like to continue that discussion here.

I think she has a point that when one struggles with God, it's the person's own issues that are at stake. How about if we suggest that the reason Enos was struggling so much was because God was bringing something to Enos' attention that he had trouble dealing with?

Note Enos says he had a wrestle "before God" not with God. I read that as his problem was not with God but with himself and he took it to God and laid it before him.

I see Janderich beat me to it. I now invoke the whole great minds bit and all.

Edited June 21, 2013 by ERayR

[SamIam]

Note that Enos says, "And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins." His wrestle was not with God but before God. It seems to me that Enos is telling us of his struggle preceeding God for he uses the word "before" twice in the verse. Once, proceeding his remission of sins, and once preceeding God. It could mean that he is sstruggling in the presence of God but I don't think so. Instead he is providing us a path to follow. First, come to the Lord in sincere prayer and repentance then you will receive a remission of your sins, then you will come to God.

In order to add a second witness to the essence of Janderich's observations, I provide this observation of Ezra Taft Benson, of which J's comments embrace.

First presidency Message – keys to Successful Member-Missionary Work

President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, First Presidency Message, September 1990

“How do you obtain the Spirit? 'By the Prayer of faith,' says the Lord. Therefore, you must pray with sincerity and real intent. Pray for increased faith. Pray for the Spirit to accompany your teaching. Ask the Lord for forgiveness. Your prayers must be offered in the same spirit and with the same fervor as were the prayers of Enos in the book of Mormon….I only want to draw your attention to these verses. Enos testified: “I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God before I received a remission of my sins.” He clarified that wrestle with God for us. Note the fervor in his petition: “My soul hungered…I kneeled down before my maker…I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul…all day long did I cry unto him.” (Enos 1:4, italics added.)

Then Enos testified: “there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed…wherefore, my guilt was swept away.” (Enos 1:5,6) When he inquired of the Lord how this had been accomplished, the Lord answered him: “Because of thy faith in Christ…thy faith hath made thee whole.” (Enos 1:8, italics added.) Enos was spiritually healed. Through his mighty supplication to God, he experienced what the faithful of any dispensation can, do, and must experience if they are to see God and be filled with His Spirit. Become acquainted with Enos and the entire Book of Mormon, the greatest book in the world—a new witness for Christ. It is written for us today. This I know.”

Most important is President Benson's admonition that this wrestle before God is illustrative of what each member of the church must experience "if they are to see God and be filled with His Spirit."

Edited June 21, 2013 by SamIam

[ERayR]

In order to add a second witness to the essence of Janderich's observations, I provide this observation of Ezra Taft Benson, of which J's comments embrace.

Most important is President Benson's admonition that this wrestle before God is illustrative of what each member of the church must experience "if they are to see God and be filled with His Spirit."

Note: The biblical Jacob wrestled with an angel to get a blessing.

[The Nehor]

I think Enos hit God with a folding chair while the refs back was turned.

[SamIam]

Note: The biblical Jacob wrestled with an angel to get a blessing.

Which may be sufficient distinction to leave the two incidents as potentially referencing different events. Enos would find no forgiveness of his sins by engaging an angel. For this one must supplicate God alone in the name of the Savior who then extends the forgiveness of sins that President Benson counsels all to seek.

[tagriffy]

Note that Enos says, "And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins." His wrestle was not with God but before God. It seems to me that Enos is telling us of his struggle preceeding God for he uses the word "before" twice in the verse. Once, proceeding his remission of sins, and once preceeding God. It could mean that he is sstruggling in the presence of God but I don't think so. Instead he is providing us a path to follow. First, come to the Lord in sincere prayer and repentance then you will receive a remission of your sins, then you will come to God.

I'm not so sure we should make a hard and fast distinction between before and with. Even President Benson, in the quote supplied by Samlam, said "He [Enos] clarified that wrestle with God for us" (emphasis added). Nevertheless, there are salient points in your favor. In v. 10 Enos says he was "struggling in the spirit," indicating the struggle was entirely within himself. When he goes on to pray for the Lamanites in v. 11, he said, "I prayed unto him with many long strugglings." This is a little more ambiguous, but I think on balance the struggling was still within Enos himself.

[tagriffy]

Note: The biblical Jacob wrestled with an angel to get a blessing.

Which may be sufficient distinction to leave the two incidents as potentially referencing different events. Enos would find no forgiveness of his sins by engaging an angel. For this one must supplicate God alone in the name of the Savior who then extends the forgiveness of sins that President Benson counsels all to seek.

Hosea does indeed identify Jacob's opponent as an angel (12:4). However, if Enos is alluding to the story as it stands in Genesis, then Jacob's identification of the "man" he wrestled as God (24:30) is what counts.

[tagriffy]

I think Enos hit God with a folding chair while the refs back was turned.

While I'm sure Enos' valet is beautiful enough to distract any ref, where did the chair come from?

[SamIam]

Hosea does indeed identify Jacob's opponent as an angel (12:4). However, if Enos is alluding to the story as it stands in Genesis, then Jacob's identification of the "man" he wrestled as God (24:30) is what counts.

I suppose I will need a compelling reason to entertain the idea of "IF Enos". In order for the symbolism to be considered viable in my estimation there needs to be a commonality of terminology, imagery, and conclusions between the two stories. I percieve one as a probable example of receiving the Holy Ghost and the forgiveness of sins that sets one on the path to the other where one receives their endowment and potentially calling and election.

In one I have guilt swept away and a pattern of the three aspects of being born again and having a new heart. One he has prayed for himself, two he has prayed for his family, Three he has prayed for his enemies thus indicating a growing sense of the love of God typical of having been born again amongst several other patterns and types and shadows.

In the other I have a new name, in a location referenced as the House of God where a covenant for eternal increase is renewed. (Gen 35)

[tagriffy]

I suppose I will need a compelling reason to entertain the idea of "IF Enos". In order for the symbolism to be considered viable in my estimation there needs to be a commonality of terminology, imagery, and conclusions between the two stories. I percieve one as a probable example of receiving the Holy Ghost and the forgiveness of sins that sets one on the path to the other where one receives their endowment and potentially calling and election.

In one I have guilt swept away and a pattern of the three aspects of being born again and having a new heart. One he has prayed for himself, two he has prayed for his family, Three he has prayed for his enemies thus indicating a growing sense of the love of God typical of having been born again amongst several other patterns and types and shadows.

In the other I have a new name, in a location referenced as the House of God where a covenant for eternal increase is renewed. (Gen 35)

I see what you are saying. I don't think it will be necessary to match the entire pattern between Jacob's story and Enos'. I've already noted some differences myself. However, as a psychological identification, the pattern need not be the same. Enos' were such that he identified with Jacob's story. I do the same thing myself. I've never physically wrestled with God/an angel, but my own struggles with faith sure as heck makes it feel like I have.

[ERayR]

Hosea does indeed identify Jacob's opponent as an angel (12:4). However, if Enos is alluding to the story as it stands in Genesis, then Jacob's identification of the "man" he wrestled as God (24:30) is what counts.

Different events same motive. To aquire a blessing from God.The one in the Bible seems to be a bit more symbolic.

[canard78]

Note Enos says he had a wrestle "before God" not with God. I read that as his problem was not with God but with himself and he took it to God and laid it before him.

I see Janderich beat me to it. I now invoke the whole great minds bit and all.

I'd agree with ERayR and Janderich on this one.

I've had several deeply powerful experiences of "wrestling before God." The wrestle was certainly with myself. Inadequacies, frustrations, sins, sadness. In my experiences (and I can only speak of my own), my most significant interaction with God is first as a place to find solitude to "wrestle" through my issues. Perhaps the Spirit guides me towards those issues, but it's still a '1-man-fight.'

Sometimes the final conclusion is the experience of spiritual embrace. When the great trainer at the side of the ring takes my exhausted soul in His arms and seems to say "enough, take rest in my love."

When I reflect on my most treasured experiences of prayer, they have been the times when, in praying, I have been able to see myself as God sees me and as my eternal self truly wants me to be. I think wrestling before God is part of the process of coming to that perspective, between the part that wants to limit the eternal view of oneself and the part that wants to celebrate it.

[SamIam]

I see what you are saying. I don't think it will be necessary to match the entire pattern between Jacob's story and Enos'. I've already noted some differences myself. However, as a psychological identification, the pattern need not be the same. Enos' were such that he identified with Jacob's story. I do the same thing myself. I've never physically wrestled with God/an angel, but my own struggles with faith sure as heck makes it feel like I have.

I'll blow my lonely horn on this perspective. It is frequently the case that we approach scripture study as if there are no hard fast rules of interpretation and each man is left to define for himself some manner of interpretation that satisfys personal whims.

Thus you say "I don't think" when with a bit of knowledge and understanding you could say "it is obvious" or it would appear (for those times when you are being gracious). As with any discipline one can greatly strengthen their ability to observe patterns and commonaltiies that unite concepts clearly and help to avoid ambiguity as we piece together the lines upon lines in their proper order so that they have the actual effect of building properly foundated understandings that the spirit can with greater clarity illustrate. A mind trained in such discipline is a mind trained to understand the tongue of angels and the nuances of the spirit more clearly.

Thus I reccomend you to Elder McConkies encouragement where he states and I paraphrase that those that really wish to understand scripture must do so by studying out the manner of prophecy of the Jews. He has a talk on keys to understanding Isaiah and another called The Bible a Sealed book or titles close to these names that review issues concerned with understanding scriptures.....Another concept called PRDS is magnificent but most anglos try to grasp an Eastern concept with a Western mentality and wind up going south in comprehension. In other words the paradigm shift is the hardest part. Best of luck but you can get to a point where it is less about guessing and more about recognizing the patterns that tie things together more surely.

Edited June 21, 2013 by SamIam

[tagriffy]

I'd agree with ERayR and Janderich on this one.

I've had several deeply powerful experiences of "wrestling before God." The wrestle was certainly with myself. Inadequacies, frustrations, sins, sadness. In my experiences (and I can only speak of my own), my most significant interaction with God is first as a place to find solitude to "wrestle" through my issues. Perhaps the Spirit guides me towards those issues, but it's still a '1-man-fight.'

Sometimes the final conclusion is the experience of spiritual embrace. When the great trainer at the side of the ring takes my exhausted soul in His arms and seems to say "enough, take rest in my love."

When I reflect on my most treasured experiences of prayer, they have been the times when, in praying, I have been able to see myself as God sees me and as my eternal self truly wants me to be. I think wrestling before God is part of the process of coming to that perspective, between the part that wants to limit the eternal view of oneself and the part that wants to celebrate it.

I don't disagree with ERayR, Janderich, or you. I'm just not sure there is enough distinction between beforeand with to make a difference. I'm probably more influenced by the jacob story than the Enos story (natural enough given my background), so I call my own experiences "struggling with God." There is no question about whether the struggle is within myself. However the object of my struggles is God. Let's call my experience struggling with God in order to find him.

[tagriffy]

I'll blow my lonely horn on this perspective. It is frequently the case that we approach scripture study as if there are no hard fast rules of interpretation and each man is left to define for himself some manner of interpretation that satisfys personal whims.

Thus you say "I don't think" when with a bit of knowledge and understanding you could say "it is obvious" or it would appear (for those times when you are being gracious). As with any discipline one can greatly strengthen their ability to observe patterns and commonaltiies that unite concepts clearly and help to avoid ambiguity as we piece together the lines upon lines in their proper order so that they have the actual effect of building properly foundated understandings that the spirit can with greater clarity illustrate. A mind trained in such discipline is a mind trained to understand the tongue of angels and the nuances of the spirit more clearly.

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, so you'll have to forgive me if I seem to be going in the wrong direction. I will agree that people sometimes do make interpretations in order to satisfy their personal whims. I don't believe I'm doing so here. In fact, by posting my thoughts here, I am actually trying to avoid merely satisfying my own whims. At least, beyond the personal whim whim of finding this story really, really fascinating.

If you are trying to say there is only one way to interpret a text, then I must vehemently disagree. For any given text, there are a number of tools one can use, approaches that one might take. When I said "I don't think," I mean I don't think it is necessary for the approach that I am taking. I'm not arguing that Enos' story is literarily dependent on the Jacob story. I'm arguing the connection is personal and psychological in nature. All that is necessary in that case is to show the stories are similar enough that a person might make that kind of connection.

Thus I reccomend you to Elder McConkies encouragement where he states and I paraphrase that those that really wish to understand scripture must do so by studying out the manner of prophecy of the Jews. He has a talk on keys to understanding Isaiah and another called The Bible a Sealed book or titles close to these names....Another concept called PRDS is magnificent but most anglos try to grasp an Eastern concept with a Western mentality and wind up going south in comprehension. In other words the paradigm shift is the hardest part. Best of luck but you can get to a point where it is less about guessing and more about recognizing the patterns that tie things together more surely.

I'm not sure what Elder McConkie's suggestions for studying Isaiah have to do with this. Enos' story appears to be a straightforward narrative, not prophecy. What is PRDS and how might it apply to studying Enos?

[Calm]

What is PRDS and how might it apply to studying Enos?

Perhaps: http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/pardes.htm

[SamIam]

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, so you'll have to forgive me if I seem to be going in the wrong direction. I will agree that people sometimes do make interpretations in order to satisfy their personal whims. I don't believe I'm doing so here. In fact, by posting my thoughts here, I am actually trying to avoid merely satisfying my own whims. At least, beyond the personal whim whim of finding this story really, really fascinating.

If you are trying to say there is only one way to interpret a text, then I must vehemently disagree. For any given text, there are a number of tools one can use, approaches that one might take. When I said "I don't think," I mean I don't think it is necessary for the approach that I am taking. I'm not arguing that Enos' story is literarily dependent on the Jacob story. I'm arguing the connection is personal and psychological in nature. All that is necessary in that case is to show the stories are similar enough that a person might make that kind of connection.

I'm not sure what Elder McConkie's suggestions for studying Isaiah have to do with this. Enos' story appears to be a straightforward narrative, not prophecy. What is PRDS and how might it apply to studying Enos?

Like I said ... it's a lonely horn. You have missed the entirety of my post and it's intent which was simply to indicate that scripture study is like any discipline. There are techniques that enhance your capacity to understand the imagery. When I say personal whims, I mean that in the absence of proper scriptural interpretive knowledge one is only left with personal perceptions and understandings. That you have dismised my suggestions out of hand without so much as a looksee I can see that good scripture understanding may not be within your interests. What is really quite entertaining is this sentence "Enos' story appears to be a straightforward narrative, not prophecy" and then you ask what is PRDS.

If you were less dissmissive and had more depth you would, especially if you understood PRDS, never make the statement that you made concerning Enos being a straightforward narrative. Observations such as this are why I reccomended that you explore more sincerely good scripture study principles that would add to your capacity to make reasoned scriptural comparisons and observations. Nonetheless, you seem content where you are and thus I commend you to your private conclusions.

Edit: I note that Calmoriah has helped by providing you with a link to an interpretation of PRDS. I appreciate her efforts and so should you. I must however, make one caveat. The explanation provided at this link is that of James Trimm a anglo Jewish want to be. He lacks Jewish depth and cultural understanding and while he does okay on the first two levels of pshat and remez, he looses it in d'resh and sod. For some reason his watered down explanation has permeated the net and requires much diligence to find better sources.

For my money if I was looking for a LDS friendly perspective as a primer to introduce the concept I believe it is in the Avraham Gileadi book The Last Days: Types and Shadows from the Bible and the Book of Mormon in the lengthy introduction.

Edited June 22, 2013 by SamIam

[tagriffy]

Like I said ... it's a lonely horn. You have missed the entirety of my post and it's intent which was simply to indicate that scripture study is like any discipline. There are techniques that enhance your capacity to understand the imagery. When I say personal whims, I mean that in the absence of proper scriptural interpretive knowledge one is only left with personal perceptions and understandings. That you have dismised my suggestions out of hand without so much as a looksee I can see that good scripture understanding may not be within your interests. What is really quite entertaining is this sentence "Enos' story appears to be a straightforward narrative, not prophecy" and then you ask what is PRDS.

If I missed the entirety of your post, it isn't like I didn't admit from the beginning that I wasn't entirely sure what you were trying to say. Instead of dismissing your suggestions out of hand, I tried to address them as best as I could. So instead of entertaining yourself at my expense, perhaps it would be better to try coming back down to earth and explaining what you mean.

If you were less dissmissive and had more depth you would, especially if you understood PRDS, never make the statement that you made concerning Enos being a straightforward narrative. Observations such as this are why I reccomended that you explore more sincerely good scripture study principles that would add to your capacity to make reasoned scriptural comparisons and observations. Nonetheless, you seem content where you are and thus I commend you to your private conclusions.

I said "appears to be" in support of not understanding why you were invoking McConkie stating we need to study the manner of Jewish prophecy. Enos' narrative doesn't even look like it is in the same genre. If you were a little less dismissive yourself, you would have just explained what you felt the connection is. If I am lacking something, you could at least try educating me.

Edit: I note that Calmoriah has helped by providing you with a link to an interpretation of PRDS. I appreciate her efforts and so should you. I must however, make one caveat. The explanation provided at this link is that of James Trimm a anglo Jewish want to be. He lacks Jewish depth and cultural understanding and while he does okay on the first two levels of pshat and remez, he looses it in d'resh and sod. For some reason his watered down explanation has permeated the net and requires much diligence to find better sources.

For my money if I was looking for a LDS friendly perspective as a primer to introduce the concept I believe it is in the Avraham Gileadi book The Last Days: Types and Shadows from the Bible and the Book of Mormon in the lengthy introduction.

Gileadi's book is on my list. The question remains, How might PRDS be applied to the study of Enos?

Edited June 22, 2013 by tagriffy

[SamIam]

If I missed the entirety of your post, it isn't like I didn't admit from the beginning that I wasn't entirely sure what you were trying to say. Instead of dismissing your suggestions out of hand, I tried to address them as best as I could. So instead of entertaining yourself at my expense, perhaps it would be better to try coming back down to earth and explaining what you mean.

I said "appears to be" in support of not understanding why you were invoking McConkie stating we need to study the manner of Jewish prophecy. Enos' narrative doesn't even look like it is in the same genre. If you were a little less dismissive yourself, you would have just explained what you felt the connection is. If I am lacking something, you could at least try educating me.

Gileadi's book is on my list. The question remains, How might PRDS be applied to the study of Enos?

PRDS is a fundamental paradigm of how someone of Rabbinical training would evaluate degrees of understanding relative to all scripture. It crosses Old, New, BOM, PGP, and D&C. I will add that all learning that one grasps from studying how Jewish religous folk seek to interpret scripture must be filtered through and conformed to LDS standards. The Jews are not known for looking beyond the mark for nothing and the gospel is the standard that keeps one within proper boundaries. In its way it is one more manner of joining the ideology of the Jewish people to the restored gospel where the union of the two enhances both.

Another book that comes to mind from years ago is by Joe Sampson - Written by the Finger of God. Very unpopular with most who perceive themselves as intellectuals as his is a journey of self-discovery of application of Jewish principles with LDS theology. His goal is not scholarship but enlightenment. Judged too quickly one misses perhaps one of the best manuals for initiating the paradigm shift from western thought patterns to Jewish patterns and we do think quite differently. As to why this is of value in Enos - the Jewishness of the Book of Mormon is generally a reasonably well sustained perception. However, as a tool for understanding, one of many, understanding the manner of prophecy amongst the Jews is only prudent since in many respects it is their mentality that saturates the scriptures.

As far a teaching you...I cannot. It is something that takes much time and effort and shifting of western paradigms but do it right and you will have insight into scriptures that most never possess.

[tagriffy]

PRDS is a fundamental paradigm of how someone of Rabbinical training would evaluate degrees of understanding relative to all scripture. It crosses Old, New, BOM, PGP, and D&C. I will add that all learning that one grasps from studying how Jewish religous folk seek to interpret scripture must be filtered through and conformed to LDS standards. The Jews are not known for looking beyond the mark for nothing and the gospel is the standard that keeps one within proper boundaries. In its way it is one more manner of joining the ideology of the Jewish people to the restored gospel where the union of the two enhances both.

Well, looking at the site calmoriah posted and keeping in mind your caveats, what I see is something analogous to the classical Christian levels of interpretation that include the literal, allegorical, anagogical, and moral. Am I horribly off track here?

Another book that comes to mind from years ago is by Joe Sampson - Written by the Finger of God. Very unpopular with most who perceive themselves as intellectuals as his is a journey of self-discovery of application of Jewish principles with LDS theology. His goal is not scholarship but enlightenment. Judged too quickly one misses perhaps one of the best manuals for initiating the paradigm shift from western thought patterns to Jewish patterns and we do think quite differently. As to why this is of value in Enos - the Jewishness of the Book of Mormon is generally a reasonably well sustained perception. However, as a tool for understanding, one of many, understanding the manner of prophecy amongst the Jews is only prudent since in many respects it is their mentality that saturates the scriptures.

Actually, any kind of primer on PRDS methodology would be helpful. Whether or not I undergo a paradigm shift as a result, it would probably help me make sense of some of the Jewish commentaries I have read.

As far a teaching you...I cannot. It is something that takes much time and effort and shifting of western paradigms but do it right and you will have insight into scriptures that most never possess.

That makes it difficult for me to either accept or reject the system then. It also leaves me with little choice but to interpret the text with what tools I do have.

[Calm]

I must however, make one caveat. The explanation provided at this link is that of James Trimm a anglo Jewish want to be. He lacks Jewish depth and cultural understanding and while he does okay on the first two levels of pshat and remez, he looses it in d'resh and sod. For some reason his watered down explanation has permeated the net and requires much diligence to find better sources.

Is it better to start perhaps here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3263-bible-exegesis#anchor29 for those of us who don't have Gileadi's books.

[SamIam]

Well, looking at the site calmoriah posted and keeping in mind your caveats, what I see is something analogous to the classical Christian levels of interpretation that include the literal, allegorical, anagogical, and moral. Am I horribly off track here?

They both have four levels but otherwise... The key facet is using the scriptures to guide your path No where does Nephi state that having been taught after the manner of the gentiles...When it comes to technique, independent of the Jewish bias of trying to remove Christ from their primary focus...but when it comes to technique the Jews are the scriptural intellectuals. The scriptures, for the most part, are written according to a standard that they understand best. What thank ye the Jews is more than a rhetorical question, its an acknowledgement that they should not be discounted when one seeks to grasp the implications of scripture.

That makes it difficult for me to either accept or reject the system then. It also leaves me with little choice but to interpret the text with what tools I do have.

It's a lifetime commitment and not a weekend book club. You never have any choice but to use the tools of which you actually have possession but constantly improving upon what you have is important. Most members have no idea of how to really study scripture. They read and reread - find a commentary or two and borrow upon others spiritual insights without actually achieving any significant understandings of their own. Still, in no way do I consider any technique the superior of being educated by the spirit as you manuever through your life seeking means of understanding scriptures.

My ambition was simply to point you in directions that I have found profitable and to encourage you to consider upon Elder McConkies example and encouragement to seek out the Jewishness in scripture as one means (of several) which will enable you to see continuity, comparability, and expectations of understandings. In your comparison of Enos to the Jacob text, thus far it has been unclear that you note the elements in each that create distinction in the circumstances of each that would enable you to confidently determine meaning and application. When I provided the brief points of temples, covenants, and new name for the Jacob scenario contrasting that to the nature of the Enos story those things obviously didn't convey a sense of definitive meaning to you as they might should have. Your response as follows:

I see what you are saying. I don't think it will be necessary to match the entire pattern between Jacob's story and Enos'. I've already noted some differences myself. However, as a psychological identification, the pattern need not be the same. Enos' were such that he identified with Jacob's story. I do the same thing myself. I've never physically wrestled with God/an angel, but my own struggles with faith sure as heck makes it feel like I have.

Matching the entire pattern is not the point but matching key elements of the pattern is absolutely necessary. If they do not exist they speak of two different considerations. Understanding Jewish principles of exegesis is one source of finding upon what principles one can expect to unite diverse scriptural references...experience is another. There is absolutely no textual clue that I can identify that ties Enos to Jacob in the sense that I see in your efforts. I can appreciate your personal insight of wrestling with angels and faith struggles and that may be a very significant spiritual meaning for you that you should not discount.

However, if we skip further discussion on technique and get to the point of why this is so important in my opinion, in terms of analysis and seeing the spiritual implications of these two stories I feel strongly that understanding the Enos story in exactness and precision is of far greater significance to you than the Jacob story. We do not embrace the potential of the Jacob story if we have not done so by going through the Enos story. Have the Enos experience that the quote I provided by Ezra Taft Benson clearly referenced and faith crisis moments will tend to be greatly reduced...then Jacob becomes more of a point of interest to us.

A challenge of these forums is we read, hit reply and skip pondering, praying and seeking further light and knowledge in a spiritual fashion. Ponder and consider and with earnestness seek to understand what President Benson is saying, reach into Enos's heart and feel the power of his example for what it exactly is and then find the understanding that both are pointing you to and you will change your life and not in a small way. Finding a soft analogy that Enos is wrestling with Jacob's angel and that is like a personal faith struggle does not have the power of really hearing Enos's words, his pleas, his absolute suffering for his sins. As Elder Maxwell stated and I paraphrase, it is only after having the Enos experience that we actually enter the path to becoming as the Savior until then it's just wandering in the wilderness - which wandering is conducive to crisis's of faith.

Edited June 22, 2013 by SamIam