Denver Snuffer'S Book On The Second Comforter (And An Apology.)

[Ahab]

The Holy Ghost was only a second comforter to the former-day saints who lived during the mortal life of Jesus though. Now we receive the Holy Ghost first, and the presence of the Savior second.

We receive the 1st Councilor/Comforter when we receive/accept/abide by the light of Christ, which we often think of as our own conscience speaking to us when in fact is is our Lord speaking to us by helping us to know what is good and what is evil.

Once we show we are willing to abide by that light we receive an additional Councilor/Comforter to teach us, too, in addition to the 1st Councilor/Comforter. They both tell us and teach us the same things, so what one says to us is as the other one speaking to us, and by accepting guidance from both Councilors/Comforters/Witnesses the truth is more firmly established in our minds/spirits than it would be if we had only one person speaking to us. And what the 2 of them say is also as our Father speaking to us, too, so when we receive/accept any witness from any one of the 3 we are receiving the testimony of God, our Father, though Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

This is very basic stuff that every member should understand correctly and yet some people want to act as if it is a mystery or a special privilege not freely available to everybody except maybe after receiving a particular ordinance every member hasn't already been told to receive.

[Ahab]

Alas, sometimes you show such potential and then...well your loss and mistake.

Well, on second thought, I had a few more things to say after all.

[Avatar4321]

It may seem nitpicky, but many people seem to confuse the second Comforter with the first one. When Jesus said he would send another comforter to the apostles, he was talking about the Holy Ghost. He was the first one, and he still is. FWIW.

I was under the impression we already discussed this in the thread.

[Ahab]

I was under the impression we already discussed this in the thread.

Maybe you did, and if you did you can consider what I said as an additional witness of the truth, then.

There is no rule against repetition, is there?

[SamIam]

It may seem nitpicky, but many people seem to confuse the second Comforter with the first one. When Jesus said he would send another comforter to the apostles, he was talking about the Holy Ghost. He was the first one, and he still is. FWIW.

No this is not nitpicky at all. It is hoped that by sharing our perspectives we can actually find truth as opposed to our mistaken opinions. Now as to the statement above, we could have let this slide as a possible correct answer if you misunderstood the nature of the OP.

You did misunderstand but when we proceed to your next post, the additional clarification you provide tosses even the possibility of being correct out the window as your expanded definition is simply incorrect. Let's review that post...

We receive the 1st Councilor/Comforter when we receive/accept/abide by the light of Christ, which we often think of as our own conscience speaking to us when in fact is is our Lord speaking to us by helping us to know what is good and what is evil.

Once we show we are willing to abide by that light we receive an additional Councilor/Comforter to teach us, too, in addition to the 1st Councilor/Comforter. They both tell us and teach us the same things, so what one says to us is as the other one speaking to us, and by accepting guidance from both Councilors/Comforters/Witnesses the truth is more firmly established in our minds/spirits than it would be if we had only one person speaking to us. And what the 2 of them say is also as our Father speaking to us, too, so when we receive/accept any witness from any one of the 3 we are receiving the testimony of God, our Father, though Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

This is very basic stuff that every member should understand correctly and yet some people want to act as if it is a mystery or a special privilege not freely available to everybody except maybe after receiving a particular ordinance every member hasn't already been told to receive.

CFR - The moment we equate the light of Christ as either of the 2 possible comforters, we have to stop immediately and fix that misconception. First find me any scripture or quote by any general authority that equates the light of Christ to a first or second comforter. You will not find it, it does not exist. There are a few scriptures that could be misinterpreted as such but I have 5 quotes in my quote collection that say exactly the opposite - that the light of Christ is absolutely not the 1st or 2nd comforter and they point out that some do misinterpret the scriptures out of ignorance. The authors are Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, Roy W. Doxey, Charles W. Penrose as quoted by Dahl and Tate. I sure with a little effort I could find 5 more. I’m not going to post the ones I have yet as I want to see if you can locate anything in your defense.

Now perhaps, I simply am misunderstanding the nature of your post and maybe you are not saying what the words you have written seem to imply. But either way this post is not wasted as we still need to get you to the point of understanding the OP since you have chosen to try to participate in the discussion. To be clear the conversation is not about the second anointing which you seem to be conflating into the conversation about the second comforter.

Still taking your clarification of your perspective as it reads then under no circumstance can we even generously accept that you even misunderstood the OP – you have simply mistaken a point that you consider “very basic stuff.”

If you had thought the Second Comforter referred to the receipt of the Holy Ghost we would absolutely accept that simply as not grasping the intent of the OP but it is a point that is from a certain perspective absolutely correct and defensible from a certain perspective but not the perspective of the OP.

Maybe you did, and if you did you can consider what I said as an additional witness of the truth, then. There is no rule against repetition, is there?

Ahab, I’m getting to be an old man and I thought perhaps certain things from my youth were beyond this stage of life but I must confess that your bravado just makes me giggle. In light of the intent of the OP would we take the witness of Ahab over the witness of Joseph Smith? Would we take the witness of Ahab over that of Bruce R. McConkie? Or Ahab over Marion G. Romney, or Ahab over Ezra Taft Benson, as these quotes are posted in this thread, or Ahab over the authors of several more quotes that I did not post - perhaps D & C 93:1 could be squeezed in there somewhere. Of course if I could ask any of them “should I take Ahab’s word over any of yours,” they would all say “Heavens no” He’s a pirate and you just can’t trust a pirate…

I do not suffer under the delusion that this is going to change your mind per se. But I do hope you will respond to the CFR and then listen long enough to understand the discussion and amend your misconceptions between the Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ. Your error prevents you from hearing what Joseph Smith is saying and thus you may be limiting certain possibilities that you should consider. They are possibilities that are certainly worth your time to comprehend.

As far as the most important post for you to read in this thread, I consider this one of the most value for you: http://www.mormondia...entry1209263039

If you catch the message then do your research and we can perhaps further discuss the OP’s actual intent.

Edited May 30, 2013 by SamIam

[Ahab]

Samlam,

Whether or not I'm on track with the OP, the point I was sharing is simple and yes probably also a little nitpicky. We agree on the fact that there are 2 Comforters spoken of in the scriptures and I was simply pointing out which one is the 1st one. If you'd like to number them differently then go right ahead. It doesn't really matter that much since both of them will say the same things because they are in agreement/unity with each other and each one supports the testimony of the other.

...The moment we equate the light of Christ as either of the 2 possible comforters, we have to stop immediately and fix that misconception. First find me any scripture or quote by any general authority that equates the light of Christ to a first or second comforter.

You seem to rely a lot on written words while I prefer to rely on God's personal guidance to me and then with that guidance understand what is written. Let's use some reasoning here. Do you regard the light of Christ as the light and truth/intelligence that comes from Christ and to receive that is to receive our Lord's guidance to help you know the difference between good and evil? That the light of Christ is associated with Christ, himself? Don't you find his guidance comforting?

To be clear the conversation is not about the second anointing which you seem to be conflating into the conversation about the second comforter.

I haven't used the words "second annointing" so you seem to be the one conflating that with what I am talking about.

Still taking your clarification of your perspective as it reads then under no circumstance can we even generously accept that you even misunderstood the OP – you have simply mistaken a point that you consider “very basic stuff.”

That's right. I didn't misunderstand the OP. I was talking about "very basic stuff" regarding the 2nd and 1st Comforters.

If you had thought the Second Comforter referred to the receipt of the Holy Ghost we would absolutely accept that simply as not grasping the intent of the OP but it is a point that is from a certain perspective absolutely correct and defensible from a certain perspective but not the perspective of the OP.

Maybe it would help you to receive a play-by-play overview of what prompted me to write my post. 1) I read the title of the thread, 2) I noticed the subject involved the 2nd Comforter and somebody making an apology, 3) I thought about how people often think of the 2nd Comforter as Christ, even though Christ himself referred to Holy Ghost as the other Comforter he would send to the apostles and how the light of Christ is given to everyone who comes into the world which means everyone in the world already has that and that what Christ can give in addition to that is the comforting influence and guidance of the Holy Ghost, 4) I wrote my post to share some of the thoughts which had come to me.

And then at some point later you wrote your post.

I think I'm done with this now... unless I'm prompted later to say something else to you about this.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Ahab

[ERayR]

I apologize if there was anything inappropriate in asking if anyone here has received The Second Comforter, but I understand Denver Snuffer has, and has written a book on how to have such an experience.

And I know Paul saw the risen Christ on the road to Damascus (before his conversion), and wasn't forbidden to talk about it.

In fact, all the New Testament Apostles saw and talked with the risen Christ after His resurrection, and non of them kept it a secret, or were told to keep it a secret.

If they had been told to keep it secret, I wonder how much of the New Testament we'd have today?

So anyway, I would like to apologize to SamIam and any others who found my question regarding The Second Comforter distasteful, and I would not want anyone whose had such an experience to violate any secrecy requirement, but I was unaware of such a requirement.

Has any one read Mr. Snuffer's book?

Any idea why he would write such a book if there's a secrecy requirement attached to the experience?

(Or am I under some misconception in assuming he actually claims to have had the experience?)

I think you are mistaken about secrecy requirements being attached. There is no secrecy required, that I know of, however, some or all may be sacred enough to the recipient that they would not want to discuss it publicly.

[SamIam]

Samlam,

You seem to rely a lot on written words while I prefer to rely on God's personal guidance to me and then with that guidance understand what is written. Let's use some reasoning here. Do you regard the light of Christ as the light and truth/intelligence that …

There are principles of understanding. In your statement above and based on the subject we are discussing, it sounds like you are comfortable with being guided to totally unique understandings that are not second witnessed by God’s chosen. Not only not second witnessed, but they directly oppose your conclusions. That is dangerous territory to espouse in such a fashion as you have here touting it as if it places you in a superior position to know truth by denying the words of those truly in such a position. Flawed reasoning tends to produce flawed results and your expectations of the Light of Christ as being either of two comforters is that flawed result. Case in point, I provide you with the substantiation that should sway you in some fashion:

Christ is also called the Spirit of Truth and the Second Comforter. Often the scriptures use the same names to identify the gift of the Holy Ghost as they do to single out the person of that member of the Godhead. Some of the names of the Holy Ghost are also used in the revelations to refer to the light of Christ, which the Holy Ghost uses in performing his labors. In some passages the same name may mean both the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ, depending upon the application being made.

Oftentimes in speaking and writing, even some of our most insightful theologians confuse and intermingle passages having reference to different things. In gaining a knowledge of all things, it is incumbent upon us to learn the true and diverse meanings of the same names as they are found and used in different contexts.(Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1985], 256.)

Here Joseph Fielding Smith speaks to those who are confused:

The Holy Ghost, as we are taught in our modern revelation, is the third member in the Godhead and a personage of Spirit. These terms are used synonymously: Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit, Comforter; all having reference to the Holy Ghost. The same terms largely are used in relation to the Spirit of Jesus Christ, also called the Light of Truth, Light of Christ, Spirit of God, and Spirit of the Lord; and yet they are separate and distinct things. We have a great deal of confusion because we have not kept that clearly in our minds.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 1: 50.)

This quote here already posted once but repeated for your benefit:

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 14th to the 27th verses.

"Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even he will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions—Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the First Born.(HC 3:380-81.)

That's right. I didn't misunderstand the OP. I was talking about "very basic stuff" regarding the 2nd and 1st Comforters.

Again, we have gotten beyond the point of that being the issue. I genuinely am concerned about flawed thinking at this point and only offer you an opportunity to reconsider your errors.

I am not talking about basic stuff however it is as the quotes illustrate material that is often mistakenly understood as you have done.

I haven't used the words "second anointing" so you seem to be the one conflating that with what I am talking about.

Perhaps you might explain what you were referring to in the underlined portion of the following statement you made.

This is very basic stuff that every member should understand correctly and yet some people want to act as if it is a mystery or a special privilege not freely available to everybody except maybe after receiving a particular ordinance every member hasn't already been told to receive.

Sounds like second anointing…Clarify if otherwise.

I'm done with this now.

Why? Why did you bother making any comments in the thread if you have no capacity or interest is substantiating your comments? Was this just a drive by without merit? If you cannot defend your points, it is for sure that no one else is going to go near them.

Edited May 30, 2013 by SamIam

[Ahab]

There are principles of understanding. In your statement above and based on the subject we are discussing, it sounds like you are comfortable with being guided to totally unique understandings that are not second witnessed by God’s chosen. Not only not second witnessed, but they directly oppose your conclusions. That is dangerous territory to espouse in such a fashion as you have here touting it as if it places you in a superior position to know truth by denying the words of those truly in such a position. Flawed reasoning tends to produce flawed results and your expectations of the Light of Christ as being either of two comforters is that flawed result. Case in point, I provide you with the substantiation that should sway you in some fashion:

1) Nothing I said is contradictory to anything written in scripture. The light of Christ is associated with Christ, himself, who is one of the Comforters we're talking about. I don't know why you don't seem to be considering that idea.

2) The reason people are often confused about which Comforter is the 1st or 2nd Comforter is because they are so much alike because they agree on everything so that what one says is as the other one saying it. In fact the Holy Ghost bears the testimony of Jesus Christ, so what he says is the same as if Christ said it. And ditto for our Father, too, which is part of what it means for them to be in unity. Father speaks through both Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and both of them speak for him, too.

3) It really doesn't matter which Comforter you are guided by, or which one you consider to be the 1st or 2nd Comforter, as long as you receive/accept the guidance you are offered by any one of them. They all lead to the same results so if you accept all you are offered by one you will be offered more by any one of them as you keep striving to learn. To follow one is to follow them all.

Perhaps you might explain what you were referring to in the underlined portion of the following statement you made.

Sounds like second anointing…Clarify if otherwise.

I said I didn't use the words "second annointing" to see how well you were paying attention. I didn't expound on it any more than to say that, though, and that is still not what I have been talking about.

Why? Why did you bother making any comments in the thread if you have no capacity or interest is substantiating your comments? Was this just a drive by without merit? If you cannot defend your points, it is for sure that no one else is going to go near them.

Because this is as close to the spirit of contention as I want to get. You can believe whatever you want. Don't worry about me.

[Avatar4321]

The light of Christ isn't one of the Comforters mentioned.

[Ahab]

The light of Christ isn't one of the Comforters mentioned.

Christ is though, right? And who does the light of Christ come from?

Sheesh. Why is this complicated?

[SamIam]

1) Nothing I said is contradictory to anything written in scripture. The light of Christ is associated with Christ, himself, who is one of the Comforters we're talking about. I don't know why you don't seem to be considering that idea.

Equivocation...The precise topic we are discussing is why precision in understanding is an imperative. Some are attempting to comprehend the course their life is on realtive to council to seek their calling and election. In that process is a requirement of knowledge - correct knowledge. Can you fit your thoughts into any of the quotes I provided making the proper distinctions. It would be a grand stretch in my opinion to do so. Just as I feel it is a grand stretch to not back away from your mistaken notion.

2) The reason people are often confused about which Comforter is the 1st or 2nd Comforter is because they are so much alike because they agree on everything so that what one says is as the other one saying it. In fact the Holy Ghost bears the testimony of Jesus Christ, so what he says is the same as if Christ said it. And ditto for our Father, too, which is part of what it means for them to be in unity. Father speaks through both Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and both of them speak for him, too.

Equivocation - you won't let go of the need to defend a false idea and become precise in your understanding...your priority is not to pondering the material that we are discussing, instead your priority appears to be hold on at all costs and defend me, myself, and I meaning yourself of course. Stop defending yourself in a poor pursuit...this little discussion we are having is nothing. I suspect few are paying attention and there is no face to save - I just want you to get it.

3) It really doesn't matter which Comforter you are guided by, or which one you consider to be the 1st or 2nd Comforter, as long as you receive/accept the guidance you are offered by any one of them. They all lead to the same results so if you accept all you are offered by one you will be offered more by any one of them as you keep striving to learn. To follow one is to follow them all.

It matters but not to you and that's fine for your current place in life. But please if it really doesn't matter then why put forth an opinion at all?

I said I didn't use the words "second annointing" to see how well you were paying attention. I didn't expound on it any more than to say that, though, and that is still not what I have been talking about.

Oh...my bad I didn't know what game we were playing ... that changes everything - silly me---color me embarrassed.

Because this is as close to the spirit of contention as I want to get. You can believe whatever you want. Don't worry about me.

I'm not trying to contend with you - we are having a discussion. This is a forum of discussion. It is what you do in a forum - you discuss things. Sometimes things get discussed. Or discussion just happens… However, when the discussion gets too heavy, to keep turning tail and trying to run away only indicates that you are stressing about the discussion and uncomfortable with where you are in the discussion. Besides that I have observed your posts for months now and contentious discussion seems the least of your concerns.

Worrying about you is the issue. The middle of the roaders, who think “it doesn’t matter” and “I can believe whatever I feel like I can justify” treat this like it is a game. I am on the far other side of this behavior…this stuff matters. It is incredibly important. Certain discussions are less of an issue and I can be less emphatic but questions about the nature of Jesus Christ and how he operates and the path to return to his presence I consider critical.

I've done what I can to illuminate your perceptions. I am more than willing to continue the discussion but not to try to persuade you to knowledge that you are resistant to accepting though it is beyond clear, or should be, that the way you are trying to equivocate that the Light of Christ and Christ are the same and that the Light of Christ is either of the comforters is a mistaken notion.

Edited May 30, 2013 by SamIam

[Avatar4321]

Christ is though, right? And who does the light of Christ come from?

Sheesh. Why is this complicated?

it's not complicated. You are making statements no General Authority has ever suggested.

The other comforter is a visitation from Christ. Not the light of Christ. But by Christ Himself.

[Ahab]

Equivocation...The precise topic we are discussing is why precision in understanding is an imperative. Some are attempting to comprehend the course their life is on realtive to council to seek their calling and election. In that process is a requirement of knowledge - correct knowledge. Can you fit your thoughts into any of the quotes I provided making the proper distinctions. It would be a grand stretch in my opinion to do so. Just as I feel it is a grand stretch to not back away from your mistaken notion.

Simply consider what we have been talking about. The point is to learn from God, isn't it? So what difference does it really make if we learn from God through the light of Christ, or through the 1st Comforter, or through the 2nd Comforter, or through the Father, or by any other means as long as we are learning from God? That's why I said I was being nitpicky. It's all learning from God as long as we're learning from God.

I just want you to get it.

I can appreciate and understand your desire, but my interest is further light and knowledge from our Father. I haven't tossed out the ideas you have helped bring to my mind, but I'm not going to toss out what our Father has already taught me, either. Don't worry about it. If an idea "clicks" with me and I know it is from our Father, I'll accept it.

It matters but not to you and that's fine for your current place in life. But please if it really doesn't matter then why put forth an opinion at all?

I shared a simple thought and then you started saying that what I said was wrong when I knew and still know it is right. What do you really expect me to do now? Stop believing what I know and understand to be right? Why would I do that when I believe that what I believe is right? You telling me I'm wrong isn't going to convince me of anything. I think you just don't get what I am talking about, and I can't think of any way to say it any better than I have already said what I think.

Oh...my bad I didn't know what game we were playing ... that changes everything - silly me---color me embarrassed.

Yeah, right. Like I'm going to believe that.

I'm not trying to contend with you - we are having a discussion. This is a forum of discussion. It is what you do in a forum - you discuss things. Sometimes things get discussed. Or discussion just happens… However, when the discussion gets too heavy, to keep turning tail and trying to run away only indicates that you are stressing about the discussion and uncomfortable with where you are in the discussion.

Where we are in the discussion. I've made my point clear, I think, and I think your point is clear to me too. This is where it stops. You can't convince me that what you say is true. All you (or I) can do is try to express our point as clearly as possible while hoping the truth will "click" for each other through the help of our Father.

Besides that I have observed your posts for months now and contentious discussion seems the least of your concerns.

While I'll sometimes bend over backwards to try to make my point clear to someone else, I don't like to cause contention.

Worrying about you is the issue.

The best thing you can do is share what you believe God has told you. That's what I've done. The rest is in God's hands now.

The middle of the roaders, who think “it doesn’t matter” and “I can believe whatever I feel like I can justify” treat this like it is a game. I am on the far other side of this behavior…this stuff matters. It is incredibly important. Certain discussions are less of an issue and I can be less emphatic but questions about the nature of Jesus Christ and how he operates and the path to return to his presence I consider critical.

All of us need to learn through personal revelation from God, though. You can share ideas but God is the one who will make it all "click" when and where and through whom he will speak.

I've done what I can to illuminate your perceptions. I am more than willing to continue the discussion but not to try to persuade you to knowledge that you are resistant to accepting though it is beyond clear, or should be, that the way you are trying to equivocate that the Light of Christ and Christ are the same and that the Light of Christ is either of the comforters is a mistaken notion.

Can we let all of this rest now? I get your point. I think you got my point. Whether or not we're in agreement now, I am done.

[K-2]

From Willard Richards Pocket Companion June 27, 1839, Words of Joseph Smith, pgs. 4-5:

"There is two Comforters spoken of is the Holy Ghost the same as given on the day of pentecost and that all Saints receive after faith. Repentance & Baptism. This first comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure inteligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind enlightening the understanding & storeing the intellect with present knowledge of a man who is of the literal Seed of Abraham than one that is a gentile though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the Literal Seed of Abraham it is calm & serene & his whole soul & body are only exercised by the pure spirit of Inteligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile is to purge out the old blood & make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost, in such a case there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body & visible to the eye than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest & perhaps understood by few of this generation, After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins & is Baptized for the remission of his sins & received the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering & thirsting after Righteousness. & living by every word of God & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted. &c When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John in the XIV ch from the 12th to the 27 verses Note the 16. 17. 18. 21. 23. verses. (16.vs) & I will pray the father & he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (17) Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you & shall be in you."

Edited May 31, 2013 by K-2

[Avatar4321]

Are there any other good quotes on this topic?

[SamIam]

Are there any other good quotes on this topic?

Here are a few more that speak to various aspects and portions of Calling and Election, Second comforter, etc

Doctine and Covenants 93:1

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who ^aforsaketh his ^bsins and cometh unto me, and ^ccalleth on my name, and ^dobeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall ^esee my ^fface and ^gknow that I am;

Those who receive the Second Comforter shall see the Lord. He will attend them, appear to them from time to time, and teach them face to face. It was so with the ancient Twelve after Jesus rose from the dead; it will be so with all who attain like spiritual heights, for God is no respecter of persons. Obedience to the same laws always brings the same blessings. Thus the divine word acclaims: "Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am." (D&C 93:1.)

Those who receive the Second Comforter see the visions of eternity and have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom. "And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old," saith the Lord, "and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom. Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations. And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught. For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man." (D&C 76:7-10.) (B R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: 1982, 680.)

Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son of God, yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son. Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure, that they had part with Christ, and were joint heirs with him. They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure, and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble, and tribulation. Then knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. (HC 5:388-89.) (Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Burton -1977], 202.)

Based on love, born of obedience, Jesus promises the saints that they can have, here and now in this life, the following:

John 14:15-26(1) The gift and constant companionship of the Holy Ghost; the comfort and peace which it is the function of that Holy Spirit to bestow; the revelation and the sanctifying power which alone will prepare men for the companionship of gods and angels here—after; (2) Personal visitations from the Second Comforter, the Lord Jesus Christ himself, the resurrected and perfected being who dwells with his Father in the mansions on high; and B. R. McConkie, Dctrnl Nw Tstmnt Commentary, vol1: 735

As we have already seen, making one's calling and election sure comes after and grows out of celestial marriage. Eternal life does not and cannot exist for a man or a woman alone, because in its very nature it consists of the continuation of the family unit in eternity. Thus the revelation on marriage speaks both of celestial marriage (in which the conditional promises of eternal life are given) and of making one's calling and election sure (in which the unconditional promise of eternal life are given) in one and the same sentence—which sentence also says that those who commit sins (except "murder whereby to shed innocent blood") after being sealed up unto eternal life shall still gain exaltation. This is the language: "Then"—that is, after their calling and election has been made sure—"shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods," because they have eternal life. (D. & C. 132:19-20.)

The revelation speaks of that obedience out of which eternal life grows, and still speaking both of celestial marriage and of making one's calling and election sure says: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment"—that is, if they are both married and have their calling and election made sure—"and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." (D. & C. 132:26.)

…matter of being destroyed in the flesh and delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption is the doctrine of blood atonement, where under those here involved are not cleansed by the blood of Christ, but must pay the penalty for their own sins. This principle can only operate in a day, as that of Moses, when there is no separation of Church and state and when the Church has power to take life. Of conditions in our day, and as to how this law applies to us, President Joseph Fielding Smith says: "We cannot destroy men in the flesh, because we do not control the lives of men and do not have power to pass sentences upon them which involve capital punishment. In the days when there was a theocracy on the earth, then this decree was enforced. What the Lord will do in lieu of this, because we cannot destroy in the flesh, I am unable to say, but it will have to be made up in some other way." (Doc of Sal vol. 2, p. 97.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols.345.)

The prophets and apostles from Adam and Enoch down, and all men, whether cleansed and sanctified from sin or not, are yet subject to and do in fact commit sin. This is the case even after men have seen the visions of eternity and been sealed by that Holy Spirit of Promise which makes their calling and election sure. Since these chosen ones have the sure promise of eternal life, and since "no unclean thing can enter into" the Father's "kingdom" (3 Ne. 27:19), "or dwell in his presence" (Moses 6:57), what of sins committed after being sealed up into eternal life?

Obviously the laws of repentance still apply, and the more enlightened a person is, the more he seeks the gift of repentance, and the harder he strives to free himself from sin as often as he falls short of the divine will and becomes subject in any degree to the Master of Sin who is Lucifer. It follows that the sins of the godfearing and the righteous are continually remitted because they repent and seek the Lord anew every day and every hour.

And as a matter of fact, the added blessing of having one's calling and election made sure is itself an encouragement to avoid sin and a hedge against its further commission. By that long course of obedience and trial which enabled them to gain so great a blessing the sanctified saints have charted a course and developed a pattern of living which avoids sin and encourages righteousness. Thus the Lord said: "I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you." (D. & C. 124:124.)

But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them—which is a seldom and almost unheard of eventuality—still, what then? The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 3: 344.)

Edited May 31, 2013 by SamIam

[K-2]

Regarding the "Spirit of Truth":

Patriarchal Blessing given to Vilate Kimball (wife of Heber C. Kimball), by Hyrum Smith, Patriarch to the Church, March 9, 1842.

"Beloved Sister: I lay my hands upon your head in the name of Jesus, and seal you unto eternal life—sealed here on earth and sealed in heaven, and your name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life never to be blotted out.

The same is mentioned and manifested to comfort your heart, and to be a comfort unto you henceforth all your days. It is even a promise according to the mind of the Spirit, and the Spirit shall bear record of the truth; the same is called the Second Comforter, not his presence, but his promise. The same is as immutable as an oath by Himself, because there is none greater blessing that can be given, and no greater riches, it being the riches of eternity, which are the greatest riches of all riches."

--Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, Salt Lake City, UT: Bookcraft 1945, pg. 128.

"And he being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father, possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one; or, in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme, power over all things; by whom all things were created and made that were created and made, and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one; the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness—filling all in all; the Son being filled with the fullness of the mind, glory, and power; or, in other words, the spirit, glory, and power, of the Father, possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom, sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father, mediator for man, being filled with the fullness of the mind of the Father; or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father, which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments; and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all; being filled with the fullness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.

From the foregoing account of the Godhead, which is given in his revelations, the saints have a sure foundation laid for the exercise of faith unto life and salvation, through the atonement and mediation of Jesus Christ; by whose blood they have a forgiveness of sins, and also a sure reward laid up for them in heaven, even that of partaking of the fullness of the Father and the Son through the Spirit. As the Son partakes of the fullness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fullness, to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so, in like manner, the saints are to be one in them. Through the love of the Father, the mediation of Jesus Christ, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, they are to be heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ."

--Lectures on Faith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co. 1985, 5:2

Edited May 31, 2013 by K-2

[Avatar4321]

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/accepted-of-the-lord-the-doctrine-of-making-your-calling-and-election-sure?lang=eng

An interesting article on the topic

[SamIam]

http://www.lds.org/e...n-sure?lang=eng

An interesting article on the topic

Good article - Thanks