tyler90az Posted May 25, 2013 Author Posted May 25, 2013 While I am sure that there can be repentance for cowardice when it comes to Christ (Peter repented on his first round and died refusing to recant when he was older), consider also the following:Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars---the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7-8, Good News Bible; bold emphasis mine)You guys seem to be confusing dying for missionary work.
MormonMason Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 You guys seem to be confusing dying for missionary work.Nope. Not at all. Some just seem to be denying the force and meaning of Jesus' words and teachings. 2
tyler90az Posted May 25, 2013 Author Posted May 25, 2013 Just out of curiosity, where would denying in the face of death rank on a list of sins? Would it be akin to murder or saying one foul word?
mrmendoza Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 Like I said, so many who no longer believe Christ or his words.... Unfortunate. Someone truly devout and who truly understood the Gospel and its significance would never deny the Christ for any reason. I suppose you're probably right, or at least that makes sense, but don't forget those called the "sons of perdition"!Lest we be too quick to think this point has merit let's explore a bit deeper. At this point Peter has been counseled "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." This same Peter , who walked on water, this same Peter, who has stood on the Mount of transfiguration in the presence of those he thought dead in Moses and Elisha, this same Peter who has healed and cast out demons, this same Peter who rightly speaks a convincing testimony of Christ as the Son of God revealed by the Spirit, this same Peter rejected the counsel of the master because he did not understand that he, who had experienced such profound spiritual experiences could possibly be unconverted proclaiming instead that the Lord did not know him very well for he was ready to follow him to death if need be.Is this same Peter any different than many of us who profess such acclamation of faith and strength when faced with thoughts of tough times but live in mostly times limited in challenge compared to a probable soon to be future?Now let's look at what made all of the difference. The same Peter, who did nothing more than prove the words of the master that eve of his crucifixion that in spite of Peters protestations and powerful experiences he was unconverted...that same Peter changed. Some weeks later, he received the Holy Ghost, which we are enjoined to do but many often do not. However, Peter did and at that time he was born again - converted wherein he became a new creature born again of the spirit. Thus from that day forth we have a different, a much different Peter, who at the time of his death saw it a great opportunity to die in the name of his Master. So much so that he requested the torture of being hung upside down on a cross for he was unworthy of death in an upright position as was his master. In that moment, this same Peter shows you and me that unconverted men are weak and abysmal wretches who often think they are more than they are. Yet, this converted Peter who willingly suffers torture, unimaginable suffering over a drawn out and protracted period of time never breaks, never denies his Savior, never recants his testimony, In my mind anyone who presents the weak unconverted Peter as an example of what men are, is more like the Peter they see and present to the world. However, if you would truly know Peter, the converted Peter, the born again Peter, who ultimately passed all of the tests of his life then you must yourself become as he became and be truly converted by receiving the Holy Ghost. You should stop this instance thinking you know anything at all and seek out that which is most important and and beg and plead to receive the Holy Ghost and maybe then you can understand the greatness of the convert called Peter.Gee! I thought we were supposed to try to become more like Christ and be truly converted and recieve the Holy Ghost, and then maybe we could understand what Peter had to go through.While Peter was an exelent example of a truly repentet man, the magnetude of his denial must have haunted him throughout his remaining life! It would do well for all of us to see that no matter how badly we sometimes fail to live up to our ideals, we can yet repent and be forgiven! While I am sure that there can be repentance for cowardice when it comes to Christ (Peter repented on his first round and died refusing to recant when he was older), consider also the following:Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars---the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7-8, Good News Bible; bold emphasis mine)Yes, all those things, but as long as we are yet able we still have the ability to repent1
MormonMason Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 ...Yes, all those things, but as long as we are yet able we still have the ability to repent1Unless they killed you anyway (which often happens in such happenstances). Then you are dead without repentance in this life. For those who have the Gospel, this life is the time to prepare to meet God. 1
tyler90az Posted May 25, 2013 Author Posted May 25, 2013 Unless they killed you anyway (which often happens in such happenstances). Then you are dead without repentance in this life. For those who have the Gospel, this life is the time to prepare to meet God.You are using some killer rhetoric.
Avatar4321 Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Dying for the Gospel is easier. It's living for it that's tough.Even so, we are supposed to have faith in Christ. We will be tested. I see no reason to betray God. If the Lord wants us to continue to live, we will. If not, we just have to have faith that our family will be taken care of. We can bring people to Christ on the other side of the veil just as easily as on this side.With all that said, I have no clue whether I will be able to live or die for the Gospel. I sincerely want to. But I am also very much aware of my weaknesses. I can just try to take it one day at a time. 1
Avatar4321 Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 You guys seem to be confusing dying for missionary work.Dying is just going on another mission anyway. We will preach the Gospel on the other side of the veil. 2
tyler90az Posted May 27, 2013 Author Posted May 27, 2013 Alma 48:2323 Now, they were asorry to take up arms against the Lamanites, because they did not delight in the shedding of blood; yea, and this was not all—they were bsorry to be the means of sending so many of their brethren out of this world into an eternal world, cunprepared to meet their God.
Tacenda Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 I thought I promised to give my life for the gospel in a ceremony somewhere, don't want to appear vague but also don't want to be in trouble. I could have it wrong though, and misunderstood, but it seemed plain to me.
tyler90az Posted May 27, 2013 Author Posted May 27, 2013 (edited) Dying is just going on another mission anyway. We will preach the Gospel on the other side of the veil.One of the main points of my argument is that it would not be God's will. Tempting you to die and return to Heavenly Father early sounds like a trick of the Devil. To end a life prematurely, stopping that person from furthering the Gospel. In ways such as, no more children, no more seeds that were suppose to be planted and no more conversions. That means you are dying, which inevitably causes the greater death of many souls.The argument that it is a major sin is one I can not comprehend. If it is a sin it would be one of the least. We were created with an innate desire to avoid death, in order to spread the gospel and spiritually save ourselves.It is even true that the Holy Ghost helps us avoid death. A merciful God would not punish us for his creation and warnings. I understand we are suppose to beat the flesh, however, as illustrated above this is not one of those grave sins caused by the flesh. Mainly for the fact that the Holy Ghost is above the flesh, is spiritual.I want to look at the example of the killing of Laban to illustrate how this is not a sin. In the scriptures it says it is better that one man should die then a whole generation should be lost. That is the truthful reason why it was not a sin for Nephi to kill Laban. Now lets look at a parallel example. The parallel would be, a man although he may fib with words for a brief moment to further the gospel it is not a sin. Both of those cases follow the same pattern. Edited May 27, 2013 by tyler90az
tyler90az Posted May 27, 2013 Author Posted May 27, 2013 I thought I promised to give my life for the gospel in a ceremony somewhere, don't want to appear vague but also don't want to be in trouble. I could have it wrong though, and misunderstood, but it seemed plain to me.Give your life is different then lay down your life.
Tacenda Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 Give your life is different then lay down your life.Yes, it was probably meant that way, but I remember being told that if it were between the gospel and my life I should choose the gospel, meaning give up my life as in death. Boy, if it's as you say, I really don't listen or comprehend well.
tyler90az Posted May 27, 2013 Author Posted May 27, 2013 Yes, it was probably meant that way, but I remember being told that if it were between the gospel and my life I should choose the gospel, meaning give up my life as in death. Boy, if it's as you say, I really don't listen or comprehend well.Are you talking about the Temple? I do not remember any of that.
Tacenda Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 Are you talking about the Temple? I do not remember any of that.Pre 1990 there was something similar, but I'm talking about discussions I've heard about giving my life or choosing between the gospel and standing up for it and belief in it. Giving my life meaning dying for it. Why did you post this topic in the first place? Is there something you've been told similar to what I'm talking about?
Tacenda Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 (edited) Who were you told by? I'm limited on my posts, so if in the future we discuss more do you mind if I go back and add to previous ones? Ok, now to answer you, I don't remember who, I just remember the discussions. Again maybe what they were discussing was different than what my mind thought. Embarrassing I know, but just curious to know if you have heard similar from a member? Why did you bring this topic up? You still have not answered that. ETA: Tyler to your post below about why you brought this topic up, makes me wonder if the members of individual faiths, bring up scenerios as to keep one from straying a bit. Edited May 27, 2013 by Tacenda
tyler90az Posted May 27, 2013 Author Posted May 27, 2013 (edited) I'm limited on my posts, so if in the future we discuss more do you mind if I go back and add to previous ones? Ok, now to answer you, I don't remember who, I just remember the discussions. Again maybe what they were discussing was different than what my mind thought. Embarrassing I know, but just curious to know if you have heard similar from a member? Why did you bring this topic up? You still have not answered that.This was prompted by a show I watch The Tudors. King Henry VIII required everybody to give an oath that he was head of the Catholic Church in England. If they did not give that oath they were killed. The two guys who died left behind their families who would be poor. That alone flies in the face of the title of liberty for Latter-day Saints. So, yea, that is what prompted me to bring forth this discussion. Edited May 27, 2013 by tyler90az
MormonMason Posted May 28, 2013 Posted May 28, 2013 Give your life is different then lay down your life.The phraseology is synonymous, believe it or not.Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 1
Avatar4321 Posted May 28, 2013 Posted May 28, 2013 Are you talking about the Temple? I do not remember any of that.You don't? I'm geniunely surprised.
tyler90az Posted May 29, 2013 Author Posted May 29, 2013 You don't? I'm geniunely surprised.I believe you may be misinterpreting some things.
Avatar4321 Posted May 29, 2013 Posted May 29, 2013 I believe you may be misinterpreting some things.Maybe I am. But I don't believe I am.
Recommended Posts