Apostasy And Loss Of Saving Ordinances

[JarMan]

3DOP,

Thanks for your interest in this discussion. I am more than happy to get a Catholic perspective. To respond to the heart of your discussion let me give you a little bit of background. I am a life long, active member of the LDS church. I went to seminary in high school. I graduated from BYU. I attend church weekly. I attend the temple. I just sent one of my sons out on an LDS mission. I watch general conference regularly. The point of telling you this is simply to point out that I have been immersed in the teaching of the LDS church my whole life. Though I'm no scholar and sometimes I doze off during church, I'm pretty familiar with what the church has to say about the scriptures.

But at some point you have to take the words of the brethren and weigh them against the scriptures themselves. Not to try to prove the brethren wrong, necessarily, but to gain a better understanding. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I can no longer accept the LDS Church or Christianity on the same terms I have been accustomed to my whole life. I want to continue to accept the church but I need to understand on what terms I can do that. In order for me to do this I am trying to look more closely at what the Book of Mormon says. I have prayed about the Book of Mormon and have received a spiritual witness of it so I feel like the Book of Mormon is the standard I need to measure things against.

I can understand how you might frown a little on this approach. After all, isn't this essentially what the protestant reformers did in the 16th Century before breaking away from the Catholic Church? But the LDS church teaches that members should seek their own spiritual witness for all teachings. We can then gain a testimony "line upon line, precept upon precept." So at this point in my life I have a testimony of some of the teachings of the LDS Church. But there are many teachings that I still do not understand. This lack of understanding has not caused me to leave the church or fight against it in any way. I remain fully active, having faith that some day I will have a much better understanding than I have right now. My approach to the church may seem like a slippery slope towards apostasy to some. To me it seems like part of a necessary spiritual journey.

[CV75]

Impressive that you can remember that so well after (I presume) many years. But you've really just evaded the question, which is: Does the Book of Mormon give adequate information and instruction necessary for salvation?

I'm confused by the sources you've cited to support your argument that the Book of Mormon points us to saving ordinances.

In light of your request, I would expect the more impressive thing is that I have personal experience reading the Book or Mormon as a non-member, and that I took from this experience that God has agents with proper authority to teach His will and perform the related ordinances, affirming just one of the many ways that the Book of Mormon gives adequate information and instruction necessary for salvation.

In light of the other posts, my last reply did not evade the question at all, but in case there is any confusion: yes, the Book of Mormon gives adequate information and instruction necessary for salvation.

I'm not sure how else to address your confusion about how I see certain passages and mesage from the Book or Mormon pointing us to the saving ordinances.

[CV75]

UPDATE: A simple search for “ordinance” in the Book of Mormon provides the following applicable references:

Alma 13: 8- 16

As discussed, priesthood ordination is required for entering into the rest of the Lord.

Alma 30: 3, 23

The ordinances of the Law of Moses (Mosiah 13; 29 - 31) were observed by the faithful (see also 2 Nephi 25: 24 - 30). If there were ordinances before the coming of Christ from one perspective, it makes sense that there would be ordinances at the time of Christ from another perspective (e.g., baptism, 2 Nephi 31: 4 - 21; Matthew 3: 13-17) and again after His coming (baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, as referred to below; and of course the ordinances revealed in the Restoration) once the ordinances of former dispensations were fulfilled. In opposition to Korihor’s assertion, all these ordinances are good and are appendages to the Atonements of Christ, necessary for salvation.

3 Nephi 24: 7, 14

Jesus cites Malachi in stressing the importance of ordinances, and of course Jesus again established new ordinances.

4 Nephi 1: 12

“And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.”

The commandments which they had received from the Lord, and which are also ordinances performed by priesthood: Baptism (Moroni 6); Gift of the Holy Ghost (Moroni 2); Priesthood Ordination (Moroni 3); and The Sacrament (Mornoni 4, 5). Moroni 7 ties these all together, with other principles, as the means for entering into the rest of the Lord, and also establishes the relationship between God’s covenants, priesthood and these ordinances.

That “they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift (4 Nephi 1: 4)” indicates they had a superior covenant under priesthood ordinance (Abraham paid tithes). The works and miracles performed by the disciples (4 Nephi 1: 5) include ordinances, especially marriage (4 Nephi 1: 11). Verse 38 speaks to those who rejected the gospel, which gospel is defined by Christ in 3 Nephi 27: 13 - 22 (bold type designates ordinances):

“Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil— And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works. And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world… Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.”

These ordinances conform to His Doctrine, which he describes in 3 Nephi 11: 32 - 40:

“And this is my doctrine …whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God …and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. …And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.”

In 3 Nephi 21 he discusses the Restoration, including “For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.”

[Ahab]

Rejected a path they no longer believe in? Or rejected the morality of that path? Only the second could be defined as rejecting the truth they know. I don't know anyone who does that. But like you, I know quite a number of people who no longer associate as Mormons, or who were once "religious" and now are casual to the point of being irreligious, or in other words, having nothing to do with formal association with any organized religion. They now play on the Sabbath and are less strict in their drinking and eating habits, etc. But do they turn into different people morally? Again, I don't see that happening just because they decide that the LDS faith is not what they once assumed it to be....

When someone rejects what is actually true they always come up with something else they believe is true, instead. It's not like anyone intentionally believes in something they believe is wrong. Everyone thinks that what they believe is true, even in cases when it is not really true.

I was listening to a radio show this morning where some guy who had gone through a sex change operation was explaining how he doesn't feel like he is a different person than he was before, even though he now thinks of himself as a female instead of the man he once was. I'm like, GET REAL, DUDE! Just because you have accepted the idea that you are a woman doesn't mean you really are one, even if you have gone through a sex change operation and no longer have some of your original body parts. But no, this guy just doens't see it, and on and on he goes explaining how he thinks his boys still have the same person as their Dad as they did when he was as he was before. I can see what they have lost, by no longer having a real Father figure who is as a man should be, but this guy just can't see it and on he goes talking about how his relationship with his wife is better than ever. She stayed married to him and she's accepted a lot of the thoughts he has about himself now and isn't talking about the man she lost as he once was. And on and on and on it goes, both apparently clueless to the truth of their situation. I'm thinking if they saw things as I do they'd have a hard time living with their present situation, so instead they'd rather think something else than what has really happened.

When people accept bad things in their life and think of those bad things as good things, it doesn't mean those bad things have actually become good things. They're still bad things regardless of how they think of those things.

[JarMan]

UPDATE: A simple search for “ordinance” in the Book of Mormon provides the following applicable references:

Alma 13: 8- 16

As discussed, priesthood ordination is required for entering into the rest of the Lord.

These verses do not say that the priesthood is needed for entering the rest of the Lord. Verse 12 implies that it is sanctification by the Holy Ghost as a result of repentance that leads to entering into the rest of the Lord. Verse 13 says that it is humility and repentance that is required. Verse 16 says that we need to look to Christ for a remission of our sins in order to enter into his rest. I maintain that the only ordinance mentioned in these verses is the ordination to the high priesthood. And those who are ordained as such are done so to help guide others to Christ. They lead us to Christ, who then saves us as a result of us humbling ourselves and repenting. The priesthood, in other words, helps lead us to Christ. But it doesn't save us. Christ does.

Alma 30: 3, 23

The ordinances of the Law of Moses (Mosiah 13; 29 - 31) were observed by the faithful (see also 2 Nephi 25: 24 - 30). If there were ordinances before the coming of Christ from one perspective, it makes sense that there would be ordinances at the time of Christ from another perspective (e.g., baptism, 2 Nephi 31: 4 - 21; Matthew 3: 13-17) and again after His coming (baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, as referred to below; and of course the ordinances revealed in the Restoration) once the ordinances of former dispensations were fulfilled. In opposition to Korihor’s assertion, all these ordinances are good and are appendages to the Atonements of Christ, necessary for salvation.

The question in my mind is not whether or not the priesthood and ordinances exist. Of course they did and they do. The question in my mind is regarding the purpose of the priesthood and ordinances. Priesthood in the Book of Mormon seem to serve two purposes. The first is as an administrative function. Priesthood holders lead the church. The priesthood is conferred on others who then participate in a leadership role. The priesthood is also used for baptism to bring others into the church as official members. This is no different than how it works today. The second role of priesthood holders in the Book of Mormon is to be teachers of the gospel to lead others to Christ. This is also consistent with how we understand the priesthood today. The problem I see is when we take the priesthood one step further and claim that it has miraculous power. The priesthood is not exercised that way in the Book of Mormon. Not only does the priesthood not perform miracles, but it doesn't "save" people either. It is Christ who both performs miracles and saves us, but only through our faith in him. In other words, both of these things (miracles and salvation) can happen without the priesthood. The priesthood is there as an organization to facilitate the spread of Christ's gospel.

3 Nephi 24: 7, 14

Jesus cites Malachi in stressing the importance of ordinances, and of course Jesus again established new ordinances.

These scriptures are telling us that keeping the ordinances will help lead us to Christ. This, is one of the two roles the priesthood plays in the Book of Mormon as I mentioned earlier. The priesthood is a facilitator to an ends. But not an absolute requirement to achieve those ends.

4 Nephi 1: 12

“And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.”

The commandments which they had received from the Lord, and which are also ordinances performed by priesthood: Baptism (Moroni 6); Gift of the Holy Ghost (Moroni 2); Priesthood Ordination (Moroni 3); and The Sacrament (Mornoni 4, 5). Moroni 7 ties these all together, with other principles, as the means for entering into the rest of the Lord, and also establishes the relationship between God’s covenants, priesthood and these ordinances.

That “they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift (4 Nephi 1: 4)” indicates they had a superior covenant under priesthood ordinance (Abraham paid tithes). The works and miracles performed by the disciples (4 Nephi 1: 5) include ordinances, especially marriage (4 Nephi 1: 11). Verse 38 speaks to those who rejected the gospel, which gospel is defined by Christ in 3 Nephi 27: 13 - 22 (bold type designates ordinances):

“Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil— And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works. And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world… Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.”

These ordinances conform to His Doctrine, which he describes in 3 Nephi 11: 32 - 40:

“And this is my doctrine …whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God …and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. …And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.”

In 3 Nephi 21 he discusses the Restoration, including “For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.”

I can see two possible ways to understand the ordinance of baptism. The first is the traditional way in which baptism is absolutely and unequivocally necessary for our salvation. There are several verses in the Book of Mormon that can be read in this way. You have quoted a few of them. But I think there is also an alternate way to understand baptism that is not contradictory to the Book of Mormon. This alternate view is that baptism is an outward sign symbolizing our repentance. And as we take the sacrament we are re-repenting and essentially going through the process again. Baptism is necessary to be part of Christ's earthly church. It's the administrative process by which we join. But it is not the baptism or the sacrament itself that has saving power. Christ has the saving power. And as long as we repent and have faith in him we will be saved. Baptism and the sacrament act as a facilitator to keep us in remembrance of him.

But even if I were to concede that baptism is, in fact, a saving ordinance rather than something else, I think we still have a problem. When Christ appears to the Nephites he gives them his doctrine. And in 3 Nephi 11:30 he says, "And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock. . ." Where in his appearance to the Nephites does he proclaim the doctrine of eternal marriage? Or give them the endowment? Or talk about ordinances for the dead?

And to bring the discussion full circle: if baptism is indeed a saving ordinance, and if it is the only one - then I don't see how the authority to baptize was ever lost in the apostasy since there were far more than just the apostles who had the power to baptize.