Tuatha De Danaan And The Stone Of Scone?

[inquiringmind]

Who were the Tuatha de Danaan, what is "the stone of scone," and how did it become identified with Jacob's pillar stone?

[volgadon]

Nathair should know. Hopefully he'll peek in .

[Stone holm]

Who were the Tuatha de Danaan, what is "the stone of scone," and how did it become identified with Jacob's pillar stone?

Legends are it was brought by Joseph of Arimathia and Mary to the British Isles. Medieval Royalty liked to gather relics like Jacob's pillow, which was believed to be the Israelite coronation stone, to reflect their Divine callings as monarchs.

[Nathair/|\]

The Tuatha de Dannan, or in English, the Children of Danu, are the gods of the Irish people.

[inquiringmind]

The Tuatha de Dannan, or in English, the Children of Danu, are the gods of the Irish people.

Some seem to think they were Israelite refugees (from the Northern Kingdom.)

I'm wondering if that would fit with LDS views on British Israelism?

As to the stone of scone, I found this quote interesting.

"In the capital of the Scottish kingdom [scone] was a venerable fragment of rock, to which, at least as early as the fourteenth century, the following legend was attached: The STONY PILLOW on which Jacob slept at Bethel was by his countrymen transported to EGYPT. Thither came GATHELUS, son of Cecrops [Calcol], King of Athens, and married Scota, daughter of Pharaoh. He and his Egyptian wife, alarmed at the fame of MOSES, fled WITH THE STONE to Sicily or to SPAIN. From Brigantia, in Spain, it was carried off by...the favorite son of Milo the Scot [Gathelus], to Ireland...On the sacred Hill of Tara it became 'Lia Fail,' the 'Stone of Destiny.' On it the Kings of Ireland were placed." ("Historical Memorials of Westminster Abbey", by Arthur Penrhyn Stanley. John Murray, London. 1876. P. 57)

[canard78]

Stone of scone? No idea.

If you'd asked about scone of stone I might have mentioned some of my less successful baking attempts.

[Stone holm]

Seem to be more than one legend about the stone. Somehow I had always attached it to Scotland, not Ireland.

[Nathair/|\]

The first version of the legend of the stone I heard and the one I will use in my novel if I can ever find the sources I need was that it was the stone Jacob slept on at Beth-El. Princess Tea/Temaire, daughter of King Zedekiah, brought it to Eire, where the hill of Tara was named after her. It was the coronation stone of High Kings of Eire and was said to groan when the rightful king stood on it. Some equate it to the Lia Fail, but I believe that that is another stone, that still stands at Tara. St. Columba and Mac Ercha, first king of the Dalriada in Alba brought it to Iona where it was used for the coronation of the Kings of Alba until the @#$% Edward Longshanks brought it to London. Some say that the real stone was hidden and the one Edward took was a fake. It sat in Westminister Abbey until the mid-1990s when Scottish students stole it. Either it, or another fake was recovered and returned to Holyrood palace in Dun Eidin by Queen Elizabeth.

[inquiringmind]

The first version of the legend of the stone I heard and the one I will use in my novel if I can ever find the sources I need was that it was the stone Jacob slept on at Beth-El. Princess Tea/Temaire, daughter of King Zedekiah, brought it to Eire, where the hill of Tara was named after her. It was the coronation stone of High Kings of Eire and was said to groan when the rightful king stood on it. Some equate it to the Lia Fail, but I believe that that is another stone, that still stands at Tara. St. Columba and Mac Ercha, first king of the Dalriada in Alba brought it to Iona where it was used for the coronation of the Kings of Alba until the @#$% Edward Longshanks brought it to London. Some say that the real stone was hidden and the one Edward took was a fake. It sat in Westminister Abbey until the mid-1990s when Scottish students stole it. Either it, or another fake was recovered and returned to Holyrood palace in Dun Eidin by Queen Elizabeth.

So does this legend connect the Tuatha de Danaan, the Irish, or the Scots with the lost tribes of Israel?

How old is the legend, what are it's origins, and why would a Jewish princes (daughter of Zedekiah, king of Judah) be brought to Ireland with a Jewish coronation stone?

Were the lost tribes already there?

Were the Tuatha de Danaan the tribe of Dan?

Edited May 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Nathair/|\]

[inquiringmind]

Nice video, but it doesn't answer any of my questions

So does this legend connect the Tuatha de Danaan, the Irish, or the Scots with the lost tribes of Israel?

How old is the legend, what are it's origins, and why would a Jewish princes (daughter of Zedekiah, king of Judah) be brought to Ireland with a Jewish coronation stone?

Were the lost tribes already there?

Were the Tuatha de Danaan the tribe of Dan?

And it doesn't tell me anything about the origins of the Jeremiah/Zedekiah's daughter version of the legend.

For example, does this legend appear in any text earlier than the 14th century AD., and does it therefore pre-date this legend?

"In the capital of the Scottish kingdom [scone] was a venerable fragment of rock, to which, at least as early as the fourteenth century, the following legend was attached: The STONY PILLOW on which Jacob slept at Bethel was by his countrymen transported to EGYPT. Thither came GATHELUS, son of Cecrops [Calcol], King of Athens, and married Scota, daughter of Pharaoh. He and his Egyptian wife, alarmed at the fame of MOSES, fled WITH THE STONE to Sicily or to SPAIN. From Brigantia, in Spain, it was carried off by...the favorite son of Milo the Scot [Gathelus], to Ireland...On the sacred Hill of Tara it became 'Lia Fail,' the 'Stone of Destiny.' On it the Kings of Ireland were placed." ("Historical Memorials of Westminster Abbey", by Arthur Penrhyn Stanley. John Murray, London. 1876. P. 57)

The above legend, which would appear to have the stone being transported to Europe by a Gentile king and the daughter of Pharaoh at the time of Moses, seems to go back to the fourteenth century (and, if true, to an older oral tradition.)

What do you know about your version of how the stone came to Ireland?

Edited May 5, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Nathair/|\]

It's highly improbable that the De Dannan had any connection with Israel. Na Lebor Gabála Érenn states that they came from four cities in the north of Éire, not from East of South East. They brought with them four treasures (one from each city): the Spear of Light (Air), the Sword of Nuada (Fire), the Dagda's Cauldron (Water) and the Lia Fail (Earth).

The Lia Fail

I don't know the origins of the legend of Temaire and the Stone, but I suspect it is much more recent. British Israelism seems to have become popular in the 17th century, and I surmise its origins lie there.

[Nathair/|\]

Nice video, but it doesn't answer any of my questions

It wasn't intended to.

And it doesn't tell me anything about the origins of the Jeremiah/Zedekiah's daughter version of the legend.

For example, does this legend appear in any text earlier than the 14th century AD., and does it therefore pre-date this legend?

"In the capital of the Scottish kingdom [scone] was a venerable fragment of rock, to which, at least as early as the fourteenth century, the following legend was attached: The STONY PILLOW on which Jacob slept at Bethel was by his countrymen transported to EGYPT. Thither came GATHELUS, son of Cecrops [Calcol], King of Athens, and married Scota, daughter of Pharaoh. He and his Egyptian wife, alarmed at the fame of MOSES, fled WITH THE STONE to Sicily or to SPAIN. From Brigantia, in Spain, it was carried off by...the favorite son of Milo the Scot [Gathelus], to Ireland...On the sacred Hill of Tara it became 'Lia Fail,' the 'Stone of Destiny.' On it the Kings of Ireland were placed." ("Historical Memorials of Westminster Abbey", by Arthur Penrhyn Stanley. John Murray, London. 1876. P. 57)

[inquiringmind]

It's highly improbable that the De Dannan had any connection with Israel. Na Lebor Gabála Érenn states that they came from four cities in the north of Éire, not from East of South East. They brought with them four treasures (one from each city): the Spear of Light (Air), the Sword of Nuada (Fire), the Dagda's Cauldron (Water) and the Lia Fail (Earth).

The Lia Fail

I don't know the origins of the legend of Temaire and the Stone, but I suspect it is much more recent. British Israelism seems to have become popular in the 17th century, and I surmise its origins lie there.

Thank you.

[Stone holm]

Okay now the legends are all scrambled in my head. What is the name of the stone which lays in on a shelf underneath the throne of Britain. I thought that was the stone we were talking about not the standing stone in the picture.

[Nathair/|\]

The stone in the picture is the Lia Fail. The stone under the coronation chair is either the Stone or Scone or a substitute.

Lia Fail

• Phallic shaped
  
• Brought to Ireland by the Tuatha de Dannan as part of a set of four treasures
  
• Currently in Ireland at Tara hill
  

Stone of Scone

• Slab shaped
  
• Brought to Ireland by Israelites or people responding to Israelites
  
• Currently in Alba either in Holyrood house or hidden.
  

Hope this helps.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Nathair

[Stone holm]

The stone in the picture is the Lia Fail. The stone under the coronation chair is either the Stone or Scone or a substitute.

So lia Fail is associated with Ireland and the Stone of Scone with Scotland right? Wasn't the whole point of it being incorporated into the throne to symbolically unite England and Scotland?

[Stargazer]

In the Wikipedia article about the stone, it is suggested that Edward I's troops took away a stone which was subsequently installed in the Coronation Chair, but that the stone they took was a substitute, the real one having been hidden.

Some doubt exists over the stone captured by Edward I. The Westminster Stone theory posits that the monks at Scone Palace hid the real stone in the River Tay or buried it on Dunsinane Hill, and that the English troops were fooled into taking a substitute. Some proponents of the theory claim that historic descriptions of the stone do not match the present stone. If the monks did hide the stone, they hid it well; no other stone fitting its description has ever been found.

The same article suggests further that the original stone was found at MacBeth's ruined castle, in an accidentally-uncovered underground chamber, and that it was composted at least partly of meteoric iron -- and get this, it was accompanied by 2 bronze metal tablets with an inscription relating to this being Jacob's pillow. It was found in 1819.

Apparently, the current Stone of Scone has been shown to be geologically the same sandstone as is commonly found in the area of Scone, and thus it is not at all possible to be Jacob's Pillow.

Interesting stuff.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

So lia Fail is associated with Ireland and the Stone of Scone with Scotland right? Wasn't the whole point of it being incorporated into the throne to symbolically unite England and Scotland?

It was more to show that the English kings were "over" Scotland.

Apparently things have been arranged so that the Stone is now kept in Scotland normally, and is only returned to England when a coronation is to take place.

[Stargazer]

The stone in the picture is the Lia Fail. The stone under the coronation chair is either the Stone or Scone or a substitute.

I prefer the substitution theory. Much better story, IMHO.

[Nathair/|\]

I prefer the substitution theory. Much better story, IMHO.

If I ever get to write my novel, I'll be using both substitutions.

There's also a story that the Blarney stone is a piece of it as well. I plan on mentioning it, but creating a scene where the two stones got conflated by someone making a mistake or trying to make their stone more exciting by pretending it is a piece of the other.

[Stargazer]

If I ever get to write my novel, I'll be using both substitutions.

There's also a story that the Blarney stone is a piece of it as well. I plan on mentioning it, but creating a scene where the two stones got conflated by someone making a mistake or trying to make their stone more exciting by pretending it is a piece of the other.

Interesting.

Incidentally, my father when visiting Ireland went to Blarney castle and kissed the stone. It did him no good, since he already had the gift of the Blarney from birth. Like Obelix trying to get Miraculix to give him a drink of the miracle elixir, it was of no benefit.

[volgadon]

Like Obelix trying to get Miraculix to give him a drink of the miracle elixir, it was of no benefit.

He did, once.

[Bill Hamblin]

I cannot stop speaking in Lim'rick

A fact that makes my poor friends real sick

But try as I wilt, I still speak with a lilt

Since the Blarney Stone I gave a big lick.

[Calm]

Must be something like the problem I have of trying to stop finishing all of my sentences with "eh", eh?....just because I crossed that Northern border.

http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6362-wright.htm

Edited May 6, 2013 by calmoriah