Parable Of The Talants

[inquiringmind]

I was just reading the parable of the talents, and I'd like to know if Joseph ever explained what this means?

Then he who had received the one talent came, and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not scattered. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth; and lo, here is thy talent; take it from me as thou hast from thine other servants, for it is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, O wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not scattered. Having known this, therefore, thou oughtest to have put my money to the exchangers, and at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. (Matt. 25:24-27, JST.)

Is the Lord agreeing with the wicked servants characterization of him?

Edited April 26, 2013 by inquiringmind

[CASteinman]

Is the Lord agreeing with the wicked servants characterization of him?

I always kinda thought so.

[Flyonthewall]

Kind of sounds like: If that is what you knew and understood, you should have acted accordingly,

Somewhat of a confirmation of being judged on what we know and how we act on it.

[inquiringmind]

If Jesus was saying that God reaps where He hasn't sown, and I gathers where he hasn't scattered, what is that supposed to mean?

Edited April 26, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Yep]

If Jesus was saying that God reaps where He hasn't sown, and I gathers where he hasn't scattered, what is that supposed to mean?

IMO...

I have always taken it to mean that some of those that will be considered good, possibly even exalted, won't be from the body of the Church. I think this is hope to those with ancestors that were not members. A warning for us to remember our place as the servants and not to judge as unworthy those that are good but not in the Church.

[CASteinman]

Three ideas

1. These parables were not given to the world but to the Lord's chosen servants -- and they indicate that he was "going away" to a "far country" -- leaving them in charge of the work. I would say this is a bit of "pressure" on the Lord's servants.

2. I have heard that the phrase regarding Jesus being a "hard" man and "reaping where I have not sown" does not come across to us correctly over time. I understand the notion of "hard" should be read as "exacting" and "austere" with a sense of getting every last grain of the harvest. The reaping and sowing and etc, someone told me once, had to do not so much with getting gain where you had no right to it but rather it had to do with using others to get the work done. (But it is expressed in a way that makes it sound unfair -- and even like you might be stealing from your neighbors fields and taking other farmer's grain at the threshing floor.) Hence the meaning (as I heard it) was that he was an exacting man who pushed his workers to get every last grain on his behalf and thus be profitable servants to him.

3. The person saying these things is the "wicked" man not the Lord. Jesus does not counter what the man says but perhaps there is a bias exhibited in the words. I would not be surprised if Jesus was noticing how bad people will take good traits and actions of the Lord and His righteous servants and turn their words and actions into something evil and selfish. Much as this wicked servant impudently did -- the accusations are a mix of some truth and some slander but the overall impact is to make the boss look like a heartless jerk.

[inquiringmind]

The person saying these things is the "wicked" man not the Lord. Jesus does not counter what the man says

That's actually the part I don't understand.

Why does Jesus seem to agree with the wicked man instead of countering what he says (which you characterize as "a mix of some truth and some slander")?

I know Joseph commented on scripture, and I was hoping he might have said something to clarify this somewhere.

Edited April 26, 2013 by inquiringmind

[BCSpace]

Is the Lord agreeing with the wicked servants characterization of him?

Yes. But the servant was afraid to follow the example of the master which is what is being pointed out to the servant imho.

Here is all, unfortuantely, that the Institute Manual has to say on the parable other than a passing comparison to the parable of the pounds in Luke elsewhere in the manual.

(22-11) Matthew 25:14–30. An Explanation for the Parable of the Entrusted Talents

“You know, brethren, that when the Master in the Savior’s parable of the stewards called his servants before him he gave them several talents to improve on while he should tarry abroad for a little season, and when he returned he called for an accounting. So it is now. Our Master is absent only for a little season, and at the end of it He will call each to render an account; and where the five talents were bestowed, ten will be required; and he that has made no improvement will be cast out as an unprofitable servant, while the faithful will enjoy everlasting honors. Therefore we earnestly implore the grace of our Father to rest upon you, through Jesus Christ His Son, that you may not faint in the hour of temptation, nor be overcome in the time of persecution.” (Smith, Teachings, p. 68.)

http://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles/section-5-the-week-of-the-atoning-sacrifice-to-the-resurrection/chapter-22-what-shall-be-the-sign-of-thy-coming?lang=eng

[DarkScythe]

i thought it was that the wicked person was a lazy servant and the others were hard workers that were both wise and capable. Like how in a business, if you can get fired for being inept.

[CASteinman]

Why does Jesus seem to agree with the wicked man instead of countering what he says (which you characterize as "a mix of some truth and some slander")?

What actually would he contradict -- outside of the tone of apostasy?

[inquiringmind]

What actually would he contradict -- outside of the tone of apostasy?

He could have said "I sowed all the good seed, and I only reap what's mine."

[CASteinman]

He could have said "I sowed all the good seed, and I only reap what's mine."

Somehow that comes across as a weak leader and it also would distract from the weight of the parable.

[tyler90az]

Even if you will have more talants then somebody else by doing nothing you still need to work for more talents. The man was afraid that he would lose his talents because the Lord is strict. Then have nothing when the Lord reapeth where he sowed not and gathered where he did not scatter. A convert is somebody reaped where sowed not and gathered where not scattered. The people given talents are people born in the covenant. The talent Jesus refers to in this parable is spiritual talent. or level of spirituality. Do not worry about the next guy worry about yourself and keep progressing spiritually.

Edited April 26, 2013 by tyler90az

[CASteinman]

Even if you will have more talants then somebody else by doing nothing you still need to work for more talents. The man was afraid that he would lose his talents because the Lord is strict. Then have nothing when the Lord reapeth where he sowed not and gathered where he did not scatter. A convert is somebody reaped where sowed not and gathered where not scattered. The people given talents are people born in the covenant. The talent Jesus refers to in this parable is spiritual talent. or level of spirituality. Do not worry about the next guy worry about yourself and keep progressing spiritually.

Hmm... I have always thought that the talents represented the "Great Value" of the Gospel of Salvation. The master was an exceptionally rich man and had 15 Talents. He trusted this valuable wealth with Servants. He was pleased with those who took it to others and it grew. He was wroth with the one who buried the message of Salvation and did not share it -- did not increase it in the earth.

[canard78]

"I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not scattered"

Inasmuch as the have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren he have done it unto me.

When ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.

We give glory to God by taking our talents and increasing on them. He gives us the grain (or money as symbolised in this parable) but then expects us to decide how, where, when to sow it.

We tend it and harvest it. But then every grain we harvest; every act of service we give; every character trait we develop all returns to the Lord's storehouse. Out success is his glory. So he really does reap what he hasn't sown. We sow the grain he gifted us (or don't as the case may be). But he still enjoys fruits of the harvest.

If you keep reading chapter 25 of Matthew the parable of the Talents is followed by the goats and sheep. He's talking about the same people. Not only church members but "all nations."

Read the very last verse of Matt 25. This is the chapter where he sets out the way to eternal life.

This is why these three parables, his last in public before his crucifixion, are probably among my top-5 favourite passages in all of scripture.

[canard78]

Hmm... I have always thought that the talents represented the "Great Value" of the Gospel of Salvation. The master was an exceptionally rich man and had 15 Talents. He trusted this valuable wealth with Servants. He was pleased with those who took it to others and it grew. He was wroth with the one who buried the message of Salvation and did not share it -- did not increase it in the earth.

What I love about Christ's parables is their personal application. I'd not considered this one in that way, but is another interesting take on it.

For me it had been about a broader lesson on taking all the resources available to us in life and evaluating what we do. Not just resources (talents as money) or personal abilities (the oft misunderstood 'talents' in the parable) but everything we are at birth to everything we become at death. Our 'degree of difficulty' as Stephen Robinson calls it in (I think) Believing Christ.

[CASteinman]

If you keep reading chapter 25 of Matthew the parable of the Talents is followed by the goats and sheep. He's talking about the same people. Not only church members but "all nations."

I would like to see how you are looking at it. In the Parable of the Talents -- what feature represents the "Nations of the earth" or the "people of the world"?

Its pretty explicit with the goats parable, because he outright says it.

But I sort of view all of this as "Instructions to the 12".

It seems that D&C 60:30 is making a reference: "Behold, they have been sent to preach my gospel among the congregations of the wicked; wherefore, I give unto them a commandment, thus: Thou shalt not idle away thy time, neither shalt thou bury thy talent that it may not be known."

[canard78]

I would like to see how you are looking at it. In the Parable of the Talents -- what feature represents the "Nations of the earth" or the "people of the world"?

Its pretty explicit with the goats parable, because he outright says it.

But I sort of view all of this as "Instructions to the 12".

It seems that D&C 60:30 is making a reference: "Behold, they have been sent to preach my gospel among the congregations of the wicked; wherefore, I give unto them a commandment, thus: Thou shalt not idle away thy time, neither shalt thou bury thy talent that it may not be known."

As mentioned in my previous post, I love the parables because they are so easily personalised and intentionally so.

There is no such thing as the 'only correct' interpretation. They are intentionally open.

So I'm not going to argue with your interpretation of it. It can also mean that. It's a good one. It works. It also fits the 'reap what I don't sow' as the gospel is the grain but we're still the ones to sow it.

Sorry if I came across as suggesting that your interpretation of the parable was wrong. Didn't mean to. Just that they can both be right.

Parables are a bit like Chinese characters. One character (or symbol) can take on different meanings depending on its context.

轻 - qīng can mean light, easy, gentle, frivolous, reckless depending on the other characters around it.

[CASteinman]

There is no such thing as the 'only correct' interpretation. They are intentionally open.

I believe Jesus had some pretty specific things in mind. BUT -- I am not sure I know what they were in every case. I don't believe however, that because we can all have a different interpretation that we are all right. I do really believe Jesus had a purpose and a focus in each one -- a lesson He was trying to get across. Not just zen koans.

That said, I am not necessarily the best at figuring them out. But I try.

So I'm not going to argue with your interpretation of it. ...Sorry if I came across as suggesting that your interpretation of the parable was wrong. Didn't mean to. Just that they can both be right.

No, you didn't come across that way in the least. And I did not think it. And I was not thinking of arguing. I am trying to see how you see it. I don't quite understand it.

[inquiringmind]

"I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not scattered"

Inasmuch as the have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren he have done it unto me.

When ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.

We give glory to God by taking our talents and increasing on them. He gives us the grain (or money as symbolised in this parable) but then expects us to decide how, where, when to sow it.

We tend it and harvest it. But then every grain we harvest; every act of service we give; every character trait we develop all returns to the Lord's storehouse. Out success is his glory. So he really does reap what he hasn't sown. We sow the grain he gifted us (or don't as the case may be). But he still enjoys fruits of the harvest.

If you keep reading chapter 25 of Matthew the parable of the Talents is followed by the goats and sheep. He's talking about the same people. Not only church members but "all nations."

Read the very last verse of Matt 25. This is the chapter where he sets out the way to eternal life.

This is why these three parables, his last in public before his crucifixion, are probably among my top-5 favourite passages in all of scripture.

So the tares and the goats (and the wicked and slothful servant in the parable of the talents?) would be the same people spoken of in D&C 19:5-7?

Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand. Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment. Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

Edited April 27, 2013 by inquiringmind

[canard78]

So the tares and the goats (and the wicked and slothful servant in the parable of the talents?) would be the same people spoken of in D&C 19:5-7?

Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand. Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment. Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

If I get to the end of my life and I've 'left it too late, not increased on my gifted situation and not helped others' (been a foolish virgin, 1+0 servant, goat) I will be devastated. I will weep and wail and gnash my teeth. Probably for a very long time. But apparently not endlessly. That might be because I come to terms with my wasted 'turn on earth' or perhaps because the eternities have room to make up for if. Either way, I intend to not find out the hard way and am trying to be wise, 2+2 and a sheep. He will be my judge.

[canard78]

I believe Jesus had some pretty specific things in mind. BUT -- I am not sure I know what they were in every case. I don't believe however, that because we can all have a different interpretation that we are all right. I do really believe Jesus had a purpose and a focus in each one -- a lesson He was trying to get across. Not just zen koans.

That said, I am not necessarily the best at figuring them out. But I try.

No, you didn't come across that way in the least. And I did not think it. And I was not thinking of arguing. I am trying to see how you see it. I don't quite understand it.

As the perfect communicator I'd imagine he was aware of the many ways his parables could and would be applied. While there may have been some he did not intend, I don't think each parable has one exclusive intended meaning. That's why they're so good.

Out of interest, what was it about my understanding of the talents parable you didn't understand or agree with? I know you've mentioned the 'all nations' bit not being something you consider being applicable to the talents one. Was there anything else?

For me the whole chapter come as a 'set' - they work best when the lessons are interwoven. But I guess that's just my take on it.

[tyler90az]

Hmm... I have always thought that the talents represented the "Great Value" of the Gospel of Salvation. The master was an exceptionally rich man and had 15 Talents. He trusted this valuable wealth with Servants. He was pleased with those who took it to others and it grew. He was wroth with the one who buried the message of Salvation and did not share it -- did not increase it in the earth.

I do not believe the parables Jesus taught are objective. With that said, what does it mean when he says he will take them? If that is what he means then it is almost like we should count are converts and boast in them. Which I think we can all agree is something we should not do.

[CASteinman]

As the perfect communicator I'd imagine he was aware of the many ways his parables could and would be applied.

I am sorry... I do not believe God works that way.

While there may have been some he did not intend, I don't think each parable has one exclusive intended meaning. That's why they're so good.

I just do not believe this. I do not think that Jesus spoke in Parables in order to have many different meanings but rather to obscure some things to enemies or the untrained and make other things clear to people initiated.

Out of interest, what was it about my understanding of the talents parable you didn't understand or agree with?

Well, I don't know. I tried to look through the thread to find out what you were referring to and I couldn't. Otherwise I wouldn't ask. What is your interpretation of it? That's really my question.

I know you've mentioned the 'all nations' bit not being something you consider being applicable to the talents one. Was there anything else?

Well sort of. I don't think that anything exactly mentioned in the Parable was meant to be all nations -- but I DO think that it pertains to all nations. I think the Apostles were given the commission later one to go to all nations. Although it was not quite at this time, I think that it would come later. And this parable was telling them not to hide the valuable message He gave them but to spread it -- to all the world. And that if they were slothful -- they would have to account to Him -- a "Hard" Master -- who would call them wicked and unprofitable if they failed to work hard to spread the wealth that they had been so generously given.

For me the whole chapter come as a 'set'

It seems that they are sort of a set. Not sure if that was original or the editor making it that way.

[CASteinman]

I do not believe the parables Jesus taught are objective.

I feel pretty sure that they were. There is no scriptural authority for believing that they can be taken any 'ol way each random reader wants to see them.

With that said, what does it mean when he says he will take them?

It is the same as when the Lord in Modern Times has said that if a servant is not faithful, they will be removed out of their place.

If that is what he means then it is almost like we should count are converts and boast in them. Which I think we can all agree is something we should not do.

I don't know where you get that. Its a warning and encouragement to the 12 Apostles and related General Authorities.

Edited April 27, 2013 by CASteinman