Freedom Posted April 11, 2013 Posted April 11, 2013 So I do not exactly know what hell is like will we be compelled to submit? Maybe, but I don't think so. Every knee shall eventually bow , but I don't think anyone will be compelled to do so like in some medieval scene of a prisoner forced to kneel before a king.I suppose we will have to wait and find out, but for me I will strive to be on the right side of the psychological prison bars.
canard78 Posted April 11, 2013 Posted April 11, 2013 Well, it was delivered one way and exists another way.And the babies on thrones? The bit cut for the Ensign version? We just get '...' instead
CASteinman Posted April 11, 2013 Posted April 11, 2013 And the babies on thrones? The bit cut for the Ensign version? We just get '...' insteadWell, he didn't say babies, did he?
canard78 Posted April 11, 2013 Posted April 11, 2013 Well, he didn't say babies, did he?Children then. Having said that if a child dies as a baby:But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living in the learning of God. It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power, but appear in the same form as when on earth. Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature.If not babies then what?
CASteinman Posted April 11, 2013 Posted April 11, 2013 Children then.Having said that if a child dies as a baby:It was certainly not correctly recorded. As I said before. About 60% may be missing and there may be errors in the other parts. Which is why it is unreliable. In particular, of the 4 witnesses only one of them reports that these children will never grow -- or grow larger. What to make of that? Its not well attested.
canard78 Posted April 11, 2013 Posted April 11, 2013 It was certainly not correctly recorded. As I said before. About 60% may be missing and there may be errors in the other parts. Which is why it is unreliable. In particular, of the 4 witnesses only one of them reports that these children will never grow -- or grow larger. What to make of that? Its not well attested. So we consign it to bad recording. Fair enough. Our of interest, where do you get that from? I'd be interested to read the four versions in their original.
thesometimesaint Posted April 11, 2013 Posted April 11, 2013 So is anyone ever safe?From an LDS point of view, Joseph Smith was a faithful Prophet.He answered God's call, was baptized, made covenants, kept them, and died a martyrIs he safe now?Will he be safe when he receives his exaltation (assuming he hasn't already)?Will he be safe after the resurrection?Or could he (even then) turn around and commit the unpardonable sin?What about God Himself?Is he safe (or could God actually cease to be God at some point)?Does scripture say anything about this?So what does it mean?When (if ever) is anyone safe from the danger of committing this sin?Is one always in danger of committing a sin that results in "total incapacity to return to God's presence," but never secure in His presence?Also, if it's impossible to commit this sin after death (as I'd like to believe), what makes it impossible?From what I've read of LDS views on this subject, the more knowledge one has, the more danger their in.(But Joseph also said that knowledge saves.)Are the dead (who never committed the unpardonable sin in this life) safe, or are they in more danger (because they now know there's life after death)?There's a lot I don't understand here.If anybody does understand these things, please reply.(And if it's possible to submit a question like this to the first presidency, please tell me how.)Thank you.Yes, once we are dead.Yes, as we are once we are dead.See above.See above.We don't give up our agency simply because we are dead. However we have become our choices. We will still be the whom we have become. It is built into our Resurrection.Could, but won't.No Scripture that I know of.Those that have kept their first and second estate are safe.Not after we are safely dead.Our own choices.We never give up our ability to sin if we so choose. Just our desire to do so.Knowledge is a good thing. Wisdom(knowledge rightfully applied) is even better. God already has all knowledge and all wisdom, and eventually we will too.We can't be saved or damned in ignorance. Some lessons we learn here, other lessons will have to be learned in the next life. The more lessons we learn here the better off we will be there.The best place to start is with your Bishop/Branch President. If they can't find the answer they will get you and/or themselves in touch with someone whom can. Or you can submit your question to the "I have a question" section of the New Era; Church Magazine.
inquiringmind Posted April 13, 2013 Author Posted April 13, 2013 Yes, once we are dead.Yes, as we are once we are dead.See above.See above.We don't give up our agency simply because we are dead. However we have become our choices. We will still be the whom we have become. It is built into our Resurrection.Could, but won't.No Scripture that I know of.Those that have kept their first and second estate are safe.Not after we are safely dead.Our own choices.We never give up our ability to sin if we so choose. Just our desire to do so.Knowledge is a good thing. Wisdom(knowledge rightfully applied) is even better. God already has all knowledge and all wisdom, and eventually we will too.We can't be saved or damned in ignorance. Some lessons we learn here, other lessons will have to be learned in the next life. The more lessons we learn here the better off we will be there.The best place to start is with your Bishop/Branch President. If they can't find the answer they will get you and/or themselves in touch with someone whom can. Or you can submit your question to the "I have a question" section of the New Era; Church Magazine.Thank you
Stone holm Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 The Journal of Dicourses version certainly trails off into gibberish.
canard78 Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 The Journal of Dicourses version certainly trails off into gibberish.But was still published by the church. No-one had an issue with it at the time?
Stone holm Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 But was still published by the church. No-one had an issue with it at the time?Actually, it seems like there is a warning note in the DJ, I am travelling so can't check, seem like he did use the word babies or infants.
inquiringmind Posted April 22, 2013 Author Posted April 22, 2013 ...Those that have kept their first and second estate are safe...Yes, I was just reading Abraham 3:26.And they who akeep their first bestate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second cestate shall have dglory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
inquiringmind Posted April 22, 2013 Author Posted April 22, 2013 P.S. I'm sure it says somewhere in the standard works that Abraham has entered his exaltation, but is there anyone else (aside from Jesus) of whom it can be definitely said that they've kept their second estate, and entered their exaltation?
Stone holm Posted April 24, 2013 Posted April 24, 2013 P.S. I'm sure it says somewhere in the standard works that Abraham has entered his exaltation, but is there anyone else (aside from Jesus) of whom it can be definitely said that they've kept their second estate, and entered their exaltation?Not certain that anyone other than possibly Christ Himself of this generation of creation has been exalted, some have had their "sealings made sure", but that is not the same as being exalted which does not happen sometime after the final judgment and resurrection -- making the Celestial Kingdom does not mean that you are immediately exalted, there will be a lot of study and preparation required afterwards before we are fit to handle the powers conferred with exaltation.
Lightbearer Posted April 25, 2013 Posted April 25, 2013 I was reading this online, and I'd like to know if it's official Church doctrine?http://www.lds.org/e...sermon?lang=engIf this is true, it would mean that George Washington, Abe Lincoln, and the signers of the declaration of independence (all of whom accepted the Temple work done for them) are guaranteed a place in heaven.But is it true?Was Joseph speaking as a prophet here, or was this just his own opinion?Is there any way to know?Did any other prophet and president ever comment on what Joseph said here?(And is it possible to actually email a question like this to President Monson or the First Presidency?) Yes it is true and nobody can apostatize from Paradise! As far as George Washington or anyone else, only God can judge. But yes it is possible for people to be exalted who later receive the Temple ordinances after they die. The following indicates this: "I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept; And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins. Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 137:5-10) Hope this helps.
inquiringmind Posted April 26, 2013 Author Posted April 26, 2013 Yes it is true and nobody can apostatize from Paradise! As far as George Washington or anyone else, only God can judge. But yes it is possible for people to be exalted who later receive the Temple ordinances after they die. The following indicates this:Hope this helps.Thank you.
theplains Posted April 26, 2013 Posted April 26, 2013 http://www.mormonnew...mormon-doctrineI would suggest they change the statement slightly."Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutesdoctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often representsa personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for thewhole Church. We prayerfully ask you to refrain from publicly saying that you believe the statement is false and if said statement is believed to be true, it will cause people to go astray".Jim
Stone holm Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 I would suggest they change the statement slightly."Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutesdoctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often representsa personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for thewhole Church. We prayerfully ask you to refrain from publicly saying that you believe the statement is false and if said statement is believed to be true, it will cause people to go astray".JimWhich part leads them astray being taught something which is untrue, or publicly calling them out on it?
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