Equality May Lead To Banality?

[Tacenda]

I worked for eight years on Native reserves in Northern Canada. In Canada, the native people have "status cards" that define them as being acceptedly "native" and issued cards by the Bureau of Indian Affairs that entitles them to a few privileges but abandons them to a life of poor education, poor health care, and poverty. I have no idea (other than a few films I've seen) if the same situation exists in the US but the native people are Canada's "third world".

I totally agree with your summary of the economic system. (but I can't honestly say I would have that position if I had not lived on Reservations and seen it for myself)

When I worked for a U.S. Government run hospital we needed something like a card like the one mentioned, in order to treat them. Edited March 5, 2013 by Tacenda

[wenglund]

The invisible hand is a theory. Even the theorists gave all kinds of prerequisites for it to work correctly.

There is also the obvious tragedy of the commons problems, game theory, and the like.

Let's look at a common problem. Heavy outsourcing to cheaper workforces elsewhere. Now if everyone does it it ruins the market as there are not enough employed in the original nation to afford to buy the services being sold.

While there are other beneficial market factors you may not have considered (such as lower cost of goods and services to the consumer), and other market forces to somewhat counter the out-sourcing problem (have you had the displeasure of speaking to someone in India about a problem you are having with a company down the street?), which tends to impede ruination of the market, I hear what you are suggesting, and I am not entirely unsympathetic.

But, I don't know that this impacts, let alone counters, what I am suggesting as the point of this thread. To me, whatever problems may result from outsourcing, it doesn't mean that striving for equality may not lead to banality.

Problem is one company makng the switch will not cause this so each has an incentive to do the long-term dumb thing because they alone will not trigger the bad effect. Similar things happen with environmental waste and many other effects.

I think the problem is some people see the government as the biggest bully on the block that must be dealt with and constrained. They refuse to acknowledge that without the government keeping them in line lesser bullies can be equally tyrannical.

Perhaps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

If I may make one more comment about the notion of "equal pay for equal work" and relate it back to the topic of this thread.

For a time in our nations history, it was far more common than today for union workers to make much more money to do the same job as a non-union worker. As such, for those committed to the principle of equality, it may be expected that this disparity of unequal pay for equal work might engender an aversion to unions, though ironically in practice the opposite seems to have been the case.

Said another way, if equality were the objective, it may work at cross-purposes to unions, and eliminate certain advantages obtained through collective bargaining, thus leading to banality (not that I am necessarily pro union).

Putting this in gospel terms, the pursuit of equality may be at cross purposes with God's notion of a chosen people.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[bcuzbcuz]

I've never argued for a literal economic equality. But something is seriously wrong when someone has 10,000 lunches and the person next to him goes hungry.

I'd like to re-visit this comment about someone having 10,000 lunches. The most expensive hamburger in New York costs: 295 dollars.

This is an article from today's BBC news. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21636723

The children going hungry in America

By Duncan Walker BBC News

Child poverty in the US has reached record levels, with almost 17 million children now affected. A growing number are also going hungry on a daily basis.

Food is never far from the thoughts of 10-year-old Kaylie Haywood and her older brother Tyler, 12.

At a food bank in Stockton, Iowa, they are arguing with their mother over the 15 items they are allowed to take with them. There is little money to go shopping for extras.

Apple sauce is in, canned vegetables, tinned spaghetti, meatballs and ravioli might be.

Kaylie wants a decent education, so that she will not go hungry in future

But when Kaylie asks for ground beef, she is overruled as their motel room does not have a fridge to keep things fresh - just a sink filled with crushed ice. There's nowhere to cook, either.

It's not the first time that the family has struggled to get hold of the food they would like - or enough of it.

"We don't get three meals a day like breakfast, lunch and then dinner," says Kaylie. "When I feel hungry I feel sad and droopy."

Kaylie and Tyler live with their mother Barbara, who used to work in a factory. After losing her job, she was entitled to unemployment benefit and food stamps - this comes to $1,480 (£974) a month.

But they were no longer able afford to live in their house, which along with bills cost $1326 (£873) a month, leaving little for food or petrol.

Kaylie supplemented their income by collecting cans along the railway track near their old home - earning between two and five cents per can.

Tyler also helped out: "For mowing other people's lawns, I got $10 and I put in six of it for the gas, and gave the rest to my mum for some food."

Instead of shopping at the mall, Kaylie's clothes come from the Salvation Army shop where, to her embarrassment, 60-cent shirts are allowed, but those costing $2 are "too much".

One of their two dogs, Nala, has had to be taken to the pound to cut the bills further.

Rent on the motel room is around $700 (£460) a month, but trying to balance the budget has meant sacrifices.

Tyler says there are good days and bad days: "Sometimes when we have cereal we don't have milk - we have to eat it dry."

The River Bend Foodbank has since a sharp rise in the numbers asking for help

"Sometimes we don't have cereal and we have milk. Sometimes when there's a cooking show on I get a little more hungry - I want to vanish into the screen and start eating the food."

The family are among the 47 million Americans now thought to depend on food banks. One in five children receives food aid.

In the area where Kaylie and Tyler live, one provider - River Bend Foodbank - has seen the numbers needing help rise sharply.

"It's changed dramatically since the recession. We're up about 30% to 40% in terms of the number of people coming forward," says Caren Laughlin, who has worked with food banks for 30 years.

"That's not only because so many people have lost their jobs, it's also because the jobs that are replacing them are low paying. You cannot feed a family."

Although Kaylie, Tyler and Barbara's motel room is away from the children's friends and very cramped for three people, the move has made their lives easier in some ways.

The children's father is not around and, although her grandmother lives nearby and helps out when she can, her mother has found it difficult to cope.

"I've never seen it this bad. To get jobs it's very hard," says Barbara.

She is training to become a hairdresser, but does not hold much hope for the future.

"I seen a doctor... for depression. She put me on some anti depressants and Xanax for my panic attacks. I don't even know if I can find a job when I get out of school. Or if it will ever get any better."

In February, President Barack Obama used his State of the Union address to promise a rise in the minimum wage, to $9 (£5.90) an hour.

"This single step would raise the incomes of millions of working families. It could mean the difference between groceries or the food bank; rent or eviction; scraping by or finally getting ahead," he said.

But families like Barbara's, where parents have suddenly lost their jobs and children are going hungry, continue to concern food banks.

Many do not know where to find help and may feel ashamed about asking for it, says Mrs Laughlin.

"There are a lot of people coming who would never envision themselves being in this position."

The problems are reflected across America, says the nationwide charity Feeding America, which operates 200 food banks and feeds 37 million people each year, including 14 million children.

It says that, in total, nearly 17 million US children live in homes where getting enough healthy food is not something they can count on.

For some families, cheap and easy to prepare food can mean unhealthy choices like pizza - increasing the likelihood of obesity and health problems later in life.

In many areas schools take part in a "backpack" programme, set up to deliver food parcels to the most vulnerable on a Friday - so that they have enough to eat over the weekend.

In eastern Iowa and western Illinois, the River Bend Foodbank now helps 1,500 children in 30 schools through one such scheme.

"Kids can focus better and pay attention better," says Mrs Laughlin. "If you're worried about what you're going to eat when you get home that's what you're going to be thinking about - not what's on the blackboard."

Tyler helped his mother out by mowing lawns

Studying is also playing on the mind of Kaylie who, after another series of moves, is not attending school amid uncertainty about where the family will end up.

After leaving the motel, the family spent a brief spell in a house. But they could barely afford it and had to move again when their grandmother was no longer able to help with the rent.

Since then, they have stayed in three more motels, making it impossible for Kaylie to be enrolled in school.

Barbara hopes that will change when if she manages to secure a trailer, which comes with a two-year lease and the chance to settle down.

For Kaylie, the chance to return to class is something she sees as vital.

"I really want to be in school. If you don't get a good education then you don't get much money, you don't get a good job, you end up sleeping at your mum's.

"You end up being behind a lot of rent and you get kicked out. You end up being homeless and then with no food."

I summarize: in total, nearly 17 million US children live in homes where getting enough healthy food is not something they can count on.

I don't find any banality in any part of this article, just a lot of unequalness

[bcuzbcuz]

When I worked for a U.S. Government run hospital we needed something like a card like the one mentioned, in order to treat them.

On the reserve I had students who came to school in running shoes and a t-shirt in 20 below weather. We didn't close the school when it got to 40 below, as was general practise, because the kids came to school anyway. If they had a lunch it was usually a lard sandwich. To those who don't know what a lard sandwich is, imagine sliced white bread with a thick layer of coagulated cooking fat. Yum!

[Tacenda]

I'd like to re-visit this comment about someone having 10,000 lunches. The most expensive hamburger in New York costs: 295 dollars.

This is an article from today's BBC news. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21636723

The children going hungry in America

By Duncan Walker BBC News

Child poverty in the US has reached record levels, with almost 17 million children now affected. A growing number are also going hungry on a daily basis.

Food is never far from the thoughts of 10-year-old Kaylie Haywood and her older brother Tyler, 12.

At a food bank in Stockton, Iowa, they are arguing with their mother over the 15 items they are allowed to take with them. There is little money to go shopping for extras.

Apple sauce is in, canned vegetables, tinned spaghetti, meatballs and ravioli might be.

Kaylie wants a decent education, so that she will not go hungry in future

But when Kaylie asks for ground beef, she is overruled as their motel room does not have a fridge to keep things fresh - just a sink filled with crushed ice. There's nowhere to cook, either.

It's not the first time that the family has struggled to get hold of the food they would like - or enough of it.

"We don't get three meals a day like breakfast, lunch and then dinner," says Kaylie. "When I feel hungry I feel sad and droopy."

Kaylie and Tyler live with their mother Barbara, who used to work in a factory. After losing her job, she was entitled to unemployment benefit and food stamps - this comes to $1,480 (£974) a month.

But they were no longer able afford to live in their house, which along with bills cost $1326 (£873) a month, leaving little for food or petrol.

Kaylie supplemented their income by collecting cans along the railway track near their old home - earning between two and five cents per can.

Tyler also helped out: "For mowing other people's lawns, I got $10 and I put in six of it for the gas, and gave the rest to my mum for some food."

Instead of shopping at the mall, Kaylie's clothes come from the Salvation Army shop where, to her embarrassment, 60-cent shirts are allowed, but those costing $2 are "too much".

One of their two dogs, Nala, has had to be taken to the pound to cut the bills further.

Rent on the motel room is around $700 (£460) a month, but trying to balance the budget has meant sacrifices.

Tyler says there are good days and bad days: "Sometimes when we have cereal we don't have milk - we have to eat it dry."

The River Bend Foodbank has since a sharp rise in the numbers asking for help

"Sometimes we don't have cereal and we have milk. Sometimes when there's a cooking show on I get a little more hungry - I want to vanish into the screen and start eating the food."

The family are among the 47 million Americans now thought to depend on food banks. One in five children receives food aid.

In the area where Kaylie and Tyler live, one provider - River Bend Foodbank - has seen the numbers needing help rise sharply.

"It's changed dramatically since the recession. We're up about 30% to 40% in terms of the number of people coming forward," says Caren Laughlin, who has worked with food banks for 30 years.

"That's not only because so many people have lost their jobs, it's also because the jobs that are replacing them are low paying. You cannot feed a family."

Although Kaylie, Tyler and Barbara's motel room is away from the children's friends and very cramped for three people, the move has made their lives easier in some ways.

The children's father is not around and, although her grandmother lives nearby and helps out when she can, her mother has found it difficult to cope.

"I've never seen it this bad. To get jobs it's very hard," says Barbara.

She is training to become a hairdresser, but does not hold much hope for the future.

"I seen a doctor... for depression. She put me on some anti depressants and Xanax for my panic attacks. I don't even know if I can find a job when I get out of school. Or if it will ever get any better."

In February, President Barack Obama used his State of the Union address to promise a rise in the minimum wage, to $9 (£5.90) an hour.

"This single step would raise the incomes of millions of working families. It could mean the difference between groceries or the food bank; rent or eviction; scraping by or finally getting ahead," he said.

But families like Barbara's, where parents have suddenly lost their jobs and children are going hungry, continue to concern food banks.

Many do not know where to find help and may feel ashamed about asking for it, says Mrs Laughlin.

"There are a lot of people coming who would never envision themselves being in this position."

The problems are reflected across America, says the nationwide charity Feeding America, which operates 200 food banks and feeds 37 million people each year, including 14 million children.

It says that, in total, nearly 17 million US children live in homes where getting enough healthy food is not something they can count on.

For some families, cheap and easy to prepare food can mean unhealthy choices like pizza - increasing the likelihood of obesity and health problems later in life.

In many areas schools take part in a "backpack" programme, set up to deliver food parcels to the most vulnerable on a Friday - so that they have enough to eat over the weekend.

In eastern Iowa and western Illinois, the River Bend Foodbank now helps 1,500 children in 30 schools through one such scheme.

"Kids can focus better and pay attention better," says Mrs Laughlin. "If you're worried about what you're going to eat when you get home that's what you're going to be thinking about - not what's on the blackboard."

Tyler helped his mother out by mowing lawns

Studying is also playing on the mind of Kaylie who, after another series of moves, is not attending school amid uncertainty about where the family will end up.

After leaving the motel, the family spent a brief spell in a house. But they could barely afford it and had to move again when their grandmother was no longer able to help with the rent.

Since then, they have stayed in three more motels, making it impossible for Kaylie to be enrolled in school.

Barbara hopes that will change when if she manages to secure a trailer, which comes with a two-year lease and the chance to settle down.

For Kaylie, the chance to return to class is something she sees as vital.

"I really want to be in school. If you don't get a good education then you don't get much money, you don't get a good job, you end up sleeping at your mum's.

"You end up being behind a lot of rent and you get kicked out. You end up being homeless and then with no food."

I summarize: in total, nearly 17 million US children live in homes where getting enough healthy food is not something they can count on.

I don't find any banality in any part of this article, just a lot of unequalness

It's these people I'd like my tithing money to help along with other places in the world. I also doubt they'd be in that predicament if they were members of the LDS church. Where are the filthy rich? For crying out loud they could atleast start feeding the hungry in their own country. This so inhumane and the thought that it's happening in America is sickening.

[bcuzbcuz]

We have somewhat the same situation here in the US. We kicked the Indians off of any land that was of value. Leaving millions to die, and/or with limited means to improve economically. I have two good friends that are American Indians. One was able to make it off the reservation while the other didn't.

Most native people don't find a life off reserve (they call it Concrete Indians) as even something to strive for. Almost all have relatives who have left for the big cities only to find unemployment, institutionalized rascism, alcohol and drugs. In Vancouver more than fifty women, mostly native, disappeared into prostitution, then death on a pig farm, without the police doing any proper investigation. No one had any time to go looking for down and out native women.

Back on the reserve, life isn't really any better, but at least family is there for support. But the poverty they are forced to endure shows up in the cemetery. More than 50% of the graves are for children less than two years old. (I can document all of this if anyone is interested)

[thesometimesaint]

bcuzbcuz:

Sad all the way around.

I wasn't suggesting that 50% of American Indians on reservations make it off the reservation. Only that I experienced a married couple that split when one made it off and the other couldn't.

The only solution I know of is for each one of us to help just one other person. Now that would be a game changer.

[Mansquatch]

http://www.cbpp.org/...fa=view&id=3220

That is simply not true. No economic system is neutral. IE: One person is born into abject poverty with few if any educational opportunities. The other is born with a Gold plated Latinum spoon in their mouth with all the advantages that his parents wealth provides. Which one is more likely to do well economically?

Gibberish. What you are saying is that the person born into poverty is economically equal to the person who had the sense to be born of rich parents.

I've never argued for a Socialist economic system, only a more fair one. Besides the Gospel is one of Socialism. From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.

Ahh, the old Gospel of force and coercion. What a loving doctrine.

[thesometimesaint]

Ahh, the old Gospel of force and coercion. What a loving doctrine.

I said nothing about force and/or coercion. There are Christian Socialist countries that are as well off or better off than the US. But don't employ force or coercion.

BTW. What happens to those that reject the Gospel?

[Mansquatch]

I said nothing about force and/or coercion. There are Christian Socialist countries that are as well off or better off than the US. But don't employ force or coercion.

BTW. What happens to those that reject the Gospel?

Please tell me, which countries in this world have only voluntary taxes or ask their citizens to give freely to other citizens in need without any compulsory means? Governments steal from their people using threats of force. One thing people overlook when Christ said "render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" is that even the money brought before Him didn't belong to Caesar. At the same time there are people who are unwilling to help others. Forcing them to give up property for good causes is worse than them not giving. Jesus did not force the rich young man to give up everything, he asked him to and let him decide what he would do. The world lieth in sin either way.

BTW Justice and earned consequences are totally different than general force upon other people.

[wenglund]

I don't find any banality in any part of this article, just a lot of unequalness.

The banality isn't a function of the heart-wrenching statistics or the inequality, but in attempting to supposedly solve socio-economic problems by working to achieve equality, rather than for love of neighbor.

I, along with many saints, have donated countless hours and finances to foodbanks and other charitable organizations, not with the intent of producing equality, but because we love and care about people, and we want the best for them and to enable them to progress. And, considerable good has come of it.

In contrast, I have also worked for and am acquainted with various non-profit organizations that were set up to assist those in need, and whose primary objective is equality, though some of them have produced precious little with their resource in meeting needs or affecting equality, and in my experience, this is because seeking equality may lead to banality.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

Please tell me, which countries in this world have only voluntary taxes or ask their citizens to give freely to other citizens in need without any compulsory means? Governments steal from their people using threats of force. One thing people overlook when Christ said "render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" is that even the money brought before Him didn't belong to Caesar. At the same time there are people who are unwilling to help others. Forcing them to give up property for good causes is worse than them not giving. Jesus did not force the rich young man to give up everything, he asked him to and let him decide what he would do. The world lieth in sin either way.

BTW Justice and earned consequences are totally different than general force upon other people.

Nearly every country in the western world has some form of voluntary tax code. You want to get the goods and services provided by others without paying for them. That is known as theft.

Take a dollar bill out of your wallet. Take a good look at it. Please show me where your name is anywhere on it. It doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the government. They are simply allowing you the use of that money as a means of exchange.

You know I've been filing my tax statements for about 50 years now. Nowhere do I remember being forced by the government to give anyone any amount of money. I happily give to various charities and nonprofits. But the governments I live under don't force me to do it.

I want a fire dept if I have a fire that I can't control. So I happily pay for one. Even If I never personally have my house on fire. I still want that protection. Though my kids are all long graduated from school I still want good public schools. I want their teachers to be well paid, and live a good middle class lifestyle. Not just for their benefit, but because in the long run it helps our society to be a better place to live. The list is long of things and services provided to us by our government in return for the taxes we pay. I get that you don't like to pay taxes. But as you still benefit from those taxes. Pay up or find somewhere there is no government. Somalia is good place to start.

I believe in the absolute separation of Church and State until such time as Christ returns and establishes his government.

If you don't want the benefits of living under a government that has taxes that's fine with me. The rich young man wanted the benefits, but not the costs. How we live our mortal lives is the cost of what, if any benefits, we want in the next. The taxes we pay in this life has a direct bearing on the quality of our lives here.

Is it justice to take something and not pay for it?

[Nathair/|\]

Nearly every country in the western world has some form of voluntary tax code. You want to get the goods and services provided by others without paying for them. That is known as theft.

Take a dollar bill out of your wallet. Take a good look at it. Please show me where your name is anywhere on it. It doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the government. They are simply allowing you the use of that money as a means of exchange.

You know I've been filing my tax statements for about 50 years now. Nowhere do I remember being forced by the government to give anyone any amount of money. I happily give to various charities and nonprofits. But the governments I live under don't force me to do it.

I want a fire dept if I have a fire that I can't control. So I happily pay for one. Even If I never personally have my house on fire. I still want that protection. Though my kids are all long graduated from school I still want good public schools. I want their teachers to be well paid, and live a good middle class lifestyle. Not just for their benefit, but because in the long run it helps our society to be a better place to live. The list is long of things and services provided to us by our government in return for the taxes we pay. I get that you don't like to pay taxes. But as you still benefit from those taxes. Pay up or find somewhere there is no government. Somalia is good place to start. [media=]

I believe in the absolute separation of Church and State until such time as Christ returns and establishes his government.

If you don't want the benefits of living under a government that has taxes that's fine with me. The rich young man wanted the benefits, but not the costs. How we live our mortal lives is the cost of what, if any benefits, we want in the next. The taxes we pay in this life has a direct bearing on the quality of our lives here.

Is it justice to take something and not pay for it?

What do you think would happen to you if you don't pay taxes?

[thesometimesaint]

What do you think would happen to you if you don't pay taxes?

Until April 15 not a whole lot. If I use the tax code to hide money then I get to run for President.

What do you think should happen if I take something and not pay for it?

[Nathair/|\]

Until April 15 not a whole lot. If I use the tax code to hide money then I get to run for President.

I know of several people in America who have gone to prison for non-payment of taxes.

What do you think should happen if I take something and not pay for it?

My preference is for all transactions between human beings or between us and the gods to be completely voluntary for all participants.

[bcuzbcuz]

bcuzbcuz:

Sad all the way around.

I wasn't suggesting that 50% of American Indians on reservations make it off the reservation. Only that I experienced a married couple that split when one made it off and the other couldn't.

The only solution I know of is for each one of us to help just one other person. Now that would be a game changer.

I couldn't agree with you more! The goal of changing the world is probably beyond our reach, but helping just one person is and should be our constant goal.

[bcuzbcuz]

Please tell me, which countries in this world have only voluntary taxes or ask their citizens to give freely to other citizens in need without any compulsory means? Governments steal from their people using threats of force. One thing people overlook when Christ said "render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" is that even the money brought before Him didn't belong to Caesar. At the same time there are people who are unwilling to help others. Forcing them to give up property for good causes is worse than them not giving. Jesus did not force the rich young man to give up everything, he asked him to and let him decide what he would do. The world lieth in sin either way.

BTW Justice and earned consequences are totally different than general force upon other people.

Here's a list of 15 countries that have no income taxes:

Monaco

Kuwait

Bermuda

U.A.E.

Andorra

British Virgin Islands

Qatar

Bahamas

Oman

Brunei

Cayman Islands

Anguilla

Maldives

Turks and Caicos

Vanuatu

If you're rich, you will probably be welcome to move there. If you're not rich......good luck at even getting basic rights. Is that what you ideal country is like?

I have lived all my adult life in three of the richest countries in the world; Canada, USA and Sweden. I live now in the country that has one of the highest tax rates in the world. But my life is good. Crime is very low, the streets are peaceful and my wife and I can walk around the middle of downtown at 2 or 3 in the morning after the clubs have closed, without any fear. Hospital care asks for 10$ with each visit and and everything else is completely covered. Those in need of social welfare get a comfortable allowance. All parents, regardless of income, get a child subsidy for each child until the child turns 18, to cover costs of clothing and incidentals. My grandchildren and their parents pay nothing for education, students everywhere have free lunch. Our roads and bridges are serviced superbly, potholes that show themselves after our harsh winter are quickly repaired. Bus services are excellent, trains used to be good until they went private. I will soon be a pensioner and although not rich I can afford to travel at least twice a year.

Yes, I pay taxes, but I pay willingly. I get an awful lot in return.

I'm sorry to hear that you live in a country where the government steals from its people. Is corruption also a problem?

[bcuzbcuz]

My preference is for all transactions between human beings or between us and the gods to be completely voluntary for all participants.

Interesting. When was the last time you went in to McDonalds and negotiated the price of your hamburger? And did it work? Did you get your hamburger for the price you volunteered to pay?

[Ahab]

Nearly every country in the western world has some form of voluntary tax code. You want to get the goods and services provided by others without paying for them. That is known as theft.

It is also known as charity. I don't know why your mind automatically went toward something illegal.

Also consider the system in place which limits the property to only certain individuals. Who put that system in place? What or who gave them the right to use that system for governing everything and everybody? Just because "they" say something is theirs and nobody elses doesn't mean God agrees with them or that system of allocating goods and services when using the goods he provided for all of us in the creation of this planet.

Take a dollar bill out of your wallet. Take a good look at it. Please show me where your name is anywhere on it. It doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the government. They are simply allowing you the use of that money as a means of exchange.

That's fine and dandy, but we don't have to use it. We're not required to use any of it. Are we? Can't we just all decide to start exchanging goods and services with each other based on the principle of charity, only, with no money involved? And wouldn't that be a much better system that the one we use now when we use money? There is nothing better than charity, and if we all operated under that principle all things would be equal, and just, with all of us dealing justly with our fellow man..

You know I've been filing my tax statements for about 50 years now. Nowhere do I remember being forced by the government to give anyone any amount of money. I happily give to various charities and nonprofits. But the governments I live under don't force me to do it.

They want you to pay them, though, don't they. And if you don't pay what they say you owe them then they'll come after you and take it from you, won't they. But who put them in charge? And what makes them think they are doing things as our Father in heaven wants them to do things when using what he has provided? I know they do some good, sometimes, but are their ways and means really the best way to do things, do you think?

I want a fire dept if I have a fire that I can't control.

Just like a good neighbor, State Farm is there, or it can be. Or you could just have enough nice, charitable neighbors come over to put the fire out for you, and maybe even with you.

So I happily pay for one.

I'm happier when I can avoid using money for anything.

Even If I never personally have my house on fire. I still want that protection.

And you could get it without you having to use any money.

Though my kids are all long graduated from school I still want good public schools. I want their teachers to be well paid, and live a good middle class lifestyle. Not just for their benefit, but because in the long run it helps our society to be a better place to live. The list is long of things and services provided to us by our government in return for the taxes we pay. I get that you don't like to pay taxes. But as you still benefit from those taxes. Pay up or find somewhere there is no government. Somalia is good place to start.

See how you're equating government with a certain area of land? Who gave them the right to be our governors, though? Can't we make them change the rules if we don't like the ones they came up with? Who says we have to live by their rules as long as we're here? Are you thinking God gave those particular people the right to be the governors of everyone else while also giving them the right to govern us in any way they want to? Is that really the way you see it? I can see a much better way to do things than by the current system we're operating under, generally, and while I have the freedom I will live under that system to the extent that I can.

I believe in the absolute separation of Church and State until such time as Christ returns and establishes his government.

I believe in living under the principle of charity to the extent that I can, both in and out of the Church.

If you don't want the benefits of living under a government that has taxes that's fine with me. The rich young man wanted the benefits, but not the costs. How we live our mortal lives is the cost of what, if any benefits, we want in the next. The taxes we pay in this life has a direct bearing on the quality of our lives here.

We don't have to use any money for anything, though. We can all live just fine and even better without it.

Is it justice to take something and not pay for it?

Yes, and there is nothing you could do to pay for charity even if you wanted to.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Ahab

[Ahab]

I couldn't agree with you more! The goal of changing the world is probably beyond our reach, but helping just one person is and should be our constant goal.

I agree, and I have chosen the person who became my wife, and she has chose me, and we even help our children to boot, along with some of our other neighbors, sometimes.

[wenglund]

Bringing things back on topic, how does the parable of the talents factor into the notion of equality?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Nathair/|\]

Interesting. When was the last time you went in to McDonalds and negotiated the price of your hamburger? And did it work? Did you get your hamburger for the price you volunteered to pay?

I "volunteered" to go into McDonalds in your scenario. If I choose to stay away, I don't have to pay them anything. I have to "pay" for government "services" whether I want them or not.

[bcuzbcuz]

I "volunteered" to go into McDonalds in your scenario. If I choose to stay away, I don't have to pay them anything. I have to "pay" for government "services" whether I want them or not.

On the contrary, you are free to leave the country in which you reside. You don't have to stay or pay. If you live in the US you have a free vote and a constitution that requires the minority to abide by the rules of the majority. I believe it is called democracy. You volunteer to stay, thereby creating your requirement to pay.

I have already listed 15 countries that do not have income tax.

[bcuzbcuz]

Bringing things back on topic, how does the parable of the talents factor into the notion of equality?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Are you referring to the parable as related in Matthew, or the one in Luke or the one in the gospel of the Hebrews? Are you aware of the differences in how the story is told? Are you aware of who actually wrote Matthew and Luke? Are you aware of the "when" these books were written and how that plays into the differences of interpretation?