Is The Lds Church A Conservative/Republican Church?

[Mark Beesley]

Jail because you cannot go to the temple while incarcerated anyways.

You're not helping . . .

And no, I'm not going to spell it out for those who don't understand the fallacy of your statement. Just think in terms of eternal consequences.

[The Nehor]

You're not helping . . .

And no, I'm not going to spell it out for those who don't understand the fallacy of your statement. Just think in terms of eternal consequences.

I know what you mean......I was trying to make a joke. It was funnier when I was exhausted and writing it.

[Nathair/|\]

I know what you mean......I was trying to make a joke. It was funnier when I was exhausted and writing it.

Sounds like about half or more of my posts here.

[Mark Beesley]

Sounds like about half or more of my posts here.

I'm quite certain I'm the only one chuckling at posts I write that I find particularly amusing.

[Bikeemikey]

Classically Liberal, yes. Modern Liberal? Not so much.

You can't be a modern liberal in a classical period. He was classically liberal because those were the issues he was facing and his responses to them were liberal for he time.

We have no idea what he would think about the matters currently debated or where he would fall on them. He was however a liberal for his time. That does not mean we can prove he would be either liberal or conservative today.

I chose to think he would likely be more middle of the pack than either the extreme sides of the current political parties.

[jwhitlock]

Also, did you know that Mormons in Texas got prayer removed from public highschool football games. Those Mormons got tired of hearing - I believe Baptists pray at every game.

Not so. The Texas Baptists got hammered because they were actively - teachers included - denigrating and harassing not only Mormons, but individuals who were not Baptists during school time. The discrimination was quite blatant and fairly vicious at times in this particular case, and they (the Baptists) had only themselves to blame for the resulting court decision.

[jwhitlock]

Ii agree with C.S. Lewis. The problem is that most people want God as a partisan supporter for "their side" rather then in humility going to him as a student to a wise teacher. Neither party will establish Zion which is the ONLY order acceptable to God. So let them squabble. Those teaching the principles of either party in church are teaching the philosophies of men occasionally mingled with an out of context scripture or two and are thus sinning. Hopefully in ignorance.

So do not get annoyed at those sharing their political views as gospel. Pity them.

I think this is well stated. As Latter-day Saints, we should first and foremost be fellow saints in Christ. There seem to be people in the Church of all political persuasions who don't understand that, and instead categorize themselves primarily according to their politics while demanding that the gospel be remolded according to their political viewpoints. Their "fellowship" with the Saints becomes tainted in that they pigeonhole others not of their political belief as unfaithful.

This attitude exists across not only all U.S. political affiliations in the church, but is also among non-U.S. church members. Fortunately, I think those who do this are very much in the minority in the Church; however, they tend to make themselves heard above the those who are truly faithful and so sometimes are perceived as having more prevalence than they actually do.

Frankly, it's becoming quite tiresome hearing some members justify their trendy political beliefs as somehow being supported by Church policy or doctrine. In reality, the way virtually all political parties implement their agendas is usually contrary to the principles of agency, charity, service, and responsibility as taught in the restored gospel. Those who emotionally vest themselves in political parties, candidates, or the government as the vehicle for safety, security, morality, welfare, freedom, or any other need are relying on the arm of flesh. It's better to rely on the principles of the gospel and come out of the world - especially the political world.

[bdouglas]

Naturally, liberal Mormons believe the opposite, and both sides tend to make a caricature of the other.

Hugh Nibley was a self-proclaimed liberal Democrat, and his view of things placed the vices of avarice, greed, and malice as primary evils because they are sins arising not from the weakness of man's will, but from its strength. These are areas where we willfully rebel against God in order to pursue our own gain at the expense of the "undeserving" (lazy, entitled, etc.) poor. It's the work of Master Mahan--getting gain even if others might suffer for it. God helps those who help themselves. Selfishness is a great virtue. The work ethic. Some of these are things that modern conservatives hold in high esteem, though they quickly run into vice and error. They produce sins against charity.

Although there are clear exceptions, it seems that sins of indulgence arise from the weakness of men. The flesh is weak and temptations strong, and we are foolish and lazy. From this, and not from malice, arise most of the sexual and other vices of excess. These are the things that modern conservatives look down upon as base and wicked, but Nibley pointed out that they are endemic to our fallen bodies and often leave us naturally as we age and mature.

For Nibley, the sin of Sodom that finally sealed their doom was not one of sexual licentiousness, but of greed. It wasn't until they covered their trees and withheld the fruit of the earth from the fowls of the air that God cursed them and destroyed them. They were only being good little capitalists, you know. What we are willing to do in the pursuit of mammon is a thing that reveals our nature and alignment more than our weaknesses reveal it. Our weaknesses simply show that we lack the strength of our ideals, but sins committed in strength show what our ideals really are. These sins are great weights on the scales of justice.

That is one point of view from a liberal Mormon perspective, I suppose. It does not rejoice in the sin that it may tolerate. It seeks to tame those areas where the pride and power of men strip the earth of her resources for the sake of getting gain, but it refrains from prescribing righteousness to condemn the weak and conform them to a straight and narrow path. Let them wander and find their own way. Let them be made strong through their own follies, if need be, so that when they are strong, they may wield strength in charity and not in selfishness.

Thanks for this summation. I agree.

[Mudcat]

I guess my question is, if you are LDS and Democrat. What specifically does that party support that you feel is aligned closer to your beliefs?

[bdouglas]

I guess my question is, if you are LDS and Democrat. What specifically does that party support that you feel is aligned closer to your beliefs?

The following quote from Nibley, who is quoting Spencer Kimball's talk "The False Gods We Worship" is a start:

If we ask what improvement has been made up to the present, there is no better standard to judge by than that given by President Spencer W. Kimball in a solemn and inspired message to the church on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the nation.

91

The address gives us a picture of the Church, the nation, and indeed the world that is a miracle of clarity and condensation, placing the physician's finger with unerring accuracy on the really important issues. First, by way of introduction, a general observation: "When I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened." Not a particularly cheerful or even optimistic message. What is it that so frightens and appalls the prophet? Three things in particular:

1.

The abuse of the environment

: "When I . . . fly over the vast and beautiful expanses of our globe, . . . I have the feeling that the good earth can hardly bear our presence upon it. . . . The Brethren constantly cry out against . . . pollution of mind, body, and our surroundings. . . . That such a cry should be necessary among a people so blessed is amazing to me."

2.

The pursuit of personal affluence

: "Carnal man has tended to transfer his trust in God to material things. . . . When men have fallen under the power of Satan and lost the faith, they have put in its place a hope in the 'arm of flesh' and in 'gods of silver, and gold, of brass,' . . . that is, in idols. . . . Many people spend most of their time working in the service of a self-image that includes sufficient money, stocks, bonds, investment portfolios, property, credit cards, furnishing, automobiles and the like to

guarantee

carnal security throughout, it is hoped, a long and happy life."

3.

Trust in military security

: "We commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become anti-enemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan's counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior's teaching. . . . What are we to fear when the Lord is with us? Can we not take the Lord at his word and exercise a particle of faith in him? . . . We must leave off the worship of modern-day idols and a reliance on the 'arm of flesh,' for the Lord has said to all the world in our day, 'I will not spare any that remain in Babylon' [D&C 64:24]."

And how did the Saints, who never tire of saying, "The Prophet! The Prophet! We have a prophet!" receive his words? As might be expected, reaction has ranged from careful indifference to embarrassed silence and instant deep freeze. As to the three things against which they were warned, it can be shown with cruel documentation that Utah leads the nation, at least through its representatives, in outspoken contempt for the environment, unabashed reverence for wealth, and ardent advocacy of military expansion.

[bdouglas]

That didn't come out very well. Let me try again:

If we ask what improvement has been made up to the present, there is no better standard to judge by than that given by President Spencer W. Kimball in a solemn and inspired message to the church on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the nation.

91

The address gives us a picture of the Church, the nation, and indeed the world that is a miracle of clarity and condensation, placing the physician's finger with unerring accuracy on the really important issues. First, by way of introduction, a general observation: "When I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened." Not a particularly cheerful or even optimistic message. What is it that so frightens and appalls the prophet? Three things in particular:

1.

The abuse of the environment

: "When I . . . fly over the vast and beautiful expanses of our globe, . . . I have the feeling that the good earth can hardly bear our presence upon it. . . . The Brethren constantly cry out against . . . pollution of mind, body, and our surroundings. . . . That such a cry should be necessary among a people so blessed is amazing to me."

2.

The pursuit of personal affluence

: "Carnal man has tended to transfer his trust in God to material things. . . . When men have fallen under the power of Satan and lost the faith, they have put in its place a hope in the 'arm of flesh' and in 'gods of silver, and gold, of brass,' . . . that is, in idols. . . . Many people spend most of their time working in the service of a self-image that includes sufficient money, stocks, bonds, investment portfolios, property, credit cards, furnishing, automobiles and the like to

guarantee

carnal security throughout, it is hoped, a long and happy life."

3.

Trust in military security

: "We commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become anti-enemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan's counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior's teaching. . . . What are we to fear when the Lord is with us? Can we not take the Lord at his word and exercise a particle of faith in him? . . . We must leave off the worship of modern-day idols and a reliance on the 'arm of flesh,' for the Lord has said to all the world in our day, 'I will not spare any that remain in Babylon' [D&C 64:24]."

And how did the Saints, who never tire of saying, "The Prophet! The Prophet! We have a prophet!" receive his words? As might be expected, reaction has ranged from careful indifference to embarrassed silence and instant deep freeze. As to the three things against which they were warned, it can be shown with cruel documentation that Utah leads the nation, at least through its representatives, in outspoken contempt for the environment, unabashed reverence for wealth, and ardent advocacy of military expansion.

[jwhitlock]

I guess my question is, if you are LDS and Democrat. What specifically does that party support that you feel is aligned closer to your beliefs?

I would suggest that if any Latter-day Saint feels that the platform and agenda of any political party is aligned closely to his / her beliefs, that person has put the political party first, and is reinterpreting the gospel to fit their politics.

The ugly reality of the real world implementation of any political party's agenda is that they work in ways that conflict with the gospel of Christ. That applies not only to U.S. political parties, but to political organizations in other nations as well.

[jwhitlock]

Where did the Lord say, No Socialism?

United Order

Law of Consecration

Tithing

Fast Offering

These are all socialist in nature. There are many forms of socialism. Try not be exhibit a knee-jerk reaction when you see the term.

None of these are socialist in nature. The things you mention are done by choice, according to the agency of the person giving. They encourage personal responsibility on the part of all involved.

Socialism - as is evident where it is practiced today - is the forced redistribution of wealth, without choice. It discourages personal responsibility for all involved.

[Mudcat]

That didn't come out very well. Let me try again:

If we ask what improvement has been made up to the present, there is no better standard to judge by than that given by President Spencer W. Kimball in a solemn and inspired message to the church on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the nation.

91

The address gives us a picture of the Church, the nation, and indeed the world that is a miracle of clarity and condensation, placing the physician's finger with unerring accuracy on the really important issues. First, by way of introduction, a general observation: "When I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened." Not a particularly cheerful or even optimistic message. What is it that so frightens and appalls the prophet? Three things in particular:

1.

The abuse of the environment

: "When I . . . fly over the vast and beautiful expanses of our globe, . . . I have the feeling that the good earth can hardly bear our presence upon it. . . . The Brethren constantly cry out against . . . pollution of mind, body, and our surroundings. . . . That such a cry should be necessary among a people so blessed is amazing to me."

2.

The pursuit of personal affluence

: "Carnal man has tended to transfer his trust in God to material things. . . . When men have fallen under the power of Satan and lost the faith, they have put in its place a hope in the 'arm of flesh' and in 'gods of silver, and gold, of brass,' . . . that is, in idols. . . . Many people spend most of their time working in the service of a self-image that includes sufficient money, stocks, bonds, investment portfolios, property, credit cards, furnishing, automobiles and the like to

guarantee

carnal security throughout, it is hoped, a long and happy life."

3.

Trust in military security

: "We commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become anti-enemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan's counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior's teaching. . . . What are we to fear when the Lord is with us? Can we not take the Lord at his word and exercise a particle of faith in him? . . . We must leave off the worship of modern-day idols and a reliance on the 'arm of flesh,' for the Lord has said to all the world in our day, 'I will not spare any that remain in Babylon' [D&C 64:24]."

And how did the Saints, who never tire of saying, "The Prophet! The Prophet! We have a prophet!" receive his words? As might be expected, reaction has ranged from careful indifference to embarrassed silence and instant deep freeze. As to the three things against which they were warned, it can be shown with cruel documentation that Utah leads the nation, at least through its representatives, in outspoken contempt for the environment, unabashed reverence for wealth, and ardent advocacy of military expansion.

Thanks bdouglas,

I don't mean to make light of it, but I think it a bit funny that President Kimbal's comments on environmental abuse were observed from his flights across the globe. Nonetheless, if you step back from what is being stood for and see what is being stood against, given the time it was written, I think the message could be dissected along the lines that a person would be better off destitute, defenseless and without electricity. I don't doubt for a minute that people would trust God more in such circumstances. It would be all that was left.

Regards,

Mudcat

[bdouglas]

I would suggest that if any Latter-day Saint feels that the platform and agenda of any political party is aligned closely to his / her beliefs, that person has put the political party first, and is reinterpreting the gospel to fit their politics.

The ugly reality of the real world implementation of any political party's agenda is that they work in ways that conflict with the gospel of Christ. That applies not only to U.S. political parties, but to political organizations in other nations as well.

I would agree. I think that any political party is offensive to God, so it becomes for me a question of what is less offensive. It is a choice between two evils. And for my part, I find the Republican Party, as it is today, more offensive than the Democratic Party, and so I vote Democratic (mostly).

[Sky]

I guess my question is, if you are LDS and Democrat. What specifically does that party support that you feel is aligned closer to your beliefs?

I can't speak for all LDS Democrats, but for me it's issues like having the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes, ensuring a sustainable and clean environment by finally starting to take action on climate change and tackling big oil, ensuring universal heath care coverage, financial regulation, investing in education, etc. etc. And stop belittling people with lower or more modest incomes as “moochers” who don’t contribute anything worthwhile to society or don’t take personal responsibility for their lives. And I could go on and on. But I’d probably just sound like a broken record for the Obama campaign, and that would probably annoy many of you.

[Mudcat]

None of these are socialist in nature. The things you mention are done by choice, according to the agency of the person giving. They encourage personal responsibility on the part of all involved.

Socialism - as is evident where it is practiced today - is the forced redistribution of wealth, without choice. It discourages personal responsibility for all involved.

Bold mine, I agree completely. It's a stark contrast from the voluntary altruism of the early Church that existed within the Roman Empire. To incentivise dependence on a thing only begs more dependence upon it.

Forced stewardship gives no option for real stewardship.

[jwhitlock]

I would agree. I think that any political party is offensive to God, so it becomes for me a question of what is less offensive. It is a choice between two evils. And for my part, I find the Republican Party, as it is today, more offensive than the Democratic Party, and so I vote Democratic (mostly).

I no longer pay attention to what any political party says, but I do pay attention to what they do. Here in Pennsylvania where I live, there's a cyclical flip-flop between the two major parties, so I get to be disgusted with how the Republicans run things, and then nauseated with how the Democrats run things. I've been familiar with a few (very few) rather decent politicians, but they have mostly retired as things have deteriorated.

There's no real alternative choice, either. The other fringe parties or political philosophies all have shown the same ability to push destructive agendas wherever one of their candidates has managed to get elected.

Our political system has a tendency to corrupt those who embrace it. Rather than investing my emotional energy and money and time in things related to politics, I am far better off preparing myself and my family spiritually for the times ahead. There is absolutely no salvation in any of the political parties out there; one can only hope that at best, they'll keep things gridlocked so the rest of us can deal with the realities of life without much interference.

[Mudcat]

I can't speak for all LDS Democrats, but for me it's issues like having the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes, ensuring a sustainable and clean environment by finally starting to take action on climate change and tackling big oil, ensuring universal heath care coverage, financial regulation, investing in education, etc. etc.

Thanks for the input here. My thought is that the government should spend less money. They P away my tax dollars and borrow more so they can P that away too. It's a joke really.

And stop belittling people with lower or more modest incomes as “moochers” who don’t contribute anything worthwhile to society or don’t take personal responsibility for their lives. And I could go on and on. But I’d probably just sound like a broken record for the Obama campaign, and that would probably annoy many of you.

I belittle the person in grocery store line (at least in my mind) who pays with their SNAP card (aka food stamps) for a load of food while I pay cash. They load their food into a Mercedes and I put mine in my 97 Geo Prizm.

A person who takes advantage or all the government incentives for being poor like Welfare, Chips program, food stamps/SNAP, among other things... if you could explain to me how such a person contributes something worthwhile to the country, I would be all ears.

I probably sound like a broken record to Sky. No biggie we all got our opinions.

All the best,

Mudcat

[Sky]

Our political system has a tendency to corrupt those who embrace it. Rather than investing my emotional energy and money and time in things related to politics, I am far better off preparing myself and my family spiritually for the times ahead. There is absolutely no salvation in any of the political parties out there; one can only hope that at best, they'll keep things gridlocked so the rest of us can deal with the realities of life without much interference.

Odd as it may seem, not all political parties or individual politicians are equally corrupt, and some actually do want to make this place we call home better for all of us. And who gets elected does have a real effect on how things turn out. So you probably should pay a little more attention to what the political parties are saying, even if that might mean you like what the Republicans are saying better. Surely we should hope for something better than just more gridlock. If nothing else, why not follow the First Presidencies advice and pray for our leaders? It may not do anything, but it couldn't hurt either.

[jwhitlock]

Bold mine, I agree completely. It's a stark contrast from the voluntary altruism of the early Church that existed within the Roman Empire. To incentivise dependence on a thing only begs more dependence upon it.

Forced stewardship gives no option for real stewardship.

It looks like we're going to get very familiar with it here in our country. Sky, in his response to your question, was kind enough to give you all the wonderful sounding rationalizations under which it's going to be implemented, straight from the Democrat talking points.

The reality, of course, is that as those things are foisted upon us, they're not going to work very well. One just needs to look at what the political parties actually do, and not what they say, to understand that we are going to have major problems in the future. Neither of the two major political parties is willing to risk political suicide by not pandering to an electorate that has been blinded by the entitlements being dangled in front of them.

I was rather relieved, actually, that Romney didn't win. Anyone who wants to can do the math and look at the growing demands for entitlements and our huge, growing debt level and realize that we're on an economic course that cannot be reversed or sustained. The only good thing is that we won't have a Mormon to blame when the collapse does happen.

Forget finding salvation in political promises. It ain't going to happen, which is why as a believing Latter-day Saint, I have no political preference. Salvation, both temporal and spiritual, comes through Christ and the restored gospel.

[jwhitlock]

Odd as it may seem, not all political parties or individual politicians are equally corrupt, and some actually do want to make this place we call home better for all of us. And who gets elected does have a real effect on how things turn out. So you probably should pay a little more attention to what the political parties are saying, even if that might mean you like what the Republicans are saying better. Surely we should hope for something better than just more gridlock. If nothing else, why not follow the First Presidencies advice and pray for our leaders? It may not do anything, but it couldn't hurt either.

I pay a great deal of attention to what they say, and then how disconnected it is from what they do. I also read, from a wide variety of sources, about where we're headed. The reality is that politicians can make a difference - and it's usually something negative. Our current crop of politicians doesn't have a good grasp of the concept of unintended consequences, so you get proposed carbon caps during an economic downturn, and higher taxes on small business owners in periods of high unemployment. Little things that have far reaching negative consequences when they're implemented.

Frankly, gridlock would be a good thing now. The agendas that are on the table, if implemented, will just make things worse. With gridlock, there's at least a small chance that hard-working Americans (gee, there's another phrase the politicians like to use) could get things back on a sound footing without the government getting in the way with new regulations and programs that don't work.

Although I think that praying for most of our leaders is like seeking after a sign, I do pray for them. I simply pray that somehow they won't mess up too badly. We'll see if that works..

[Sky]

Well folks, I just want to share this scripture with you from the Book of Mormon, and then I'll say goodnight and forever hold my peace. King Benjamin says beautifully one of the main points I'm trying to make. And Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, by the way. How you interpret this scripture in relation to the modern political parties and their policies, I'll leave up to you. But by now I think everybody knows where I stand. Anyway, here it is:

Mosiah 4: 16-23:

16 And also, ye yourselves will ^asuccor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the ^bbeggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt ^asay: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all ^abeggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a ^aremission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his ^bSpirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with ^cjoy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to ^aimpart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22 And if ye ^ajudge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your ^bcondemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life ^cbelongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are ^arich as pertaining to the things of this world.

[canard78]

I can't speak for all LDS Democrats, but for me it's issues like having the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes, ensuring a sustainable and clean environment by finally starting to take action on climate change and tackling big oil, ensuring universal heath care coverage, financial regulation, investing in education, etc. etc. And stop belittling people with lower or more modest incomes as “moochers” who don’t contribute anything worthwhile to society or don’t take personal responsibility for their lives. And I could go on and on. But I’d probably just sound like a broken record for the Obama campaign, and that would probably annoy many of you.

Thank you Sky. What a blessed relief this was amongst the narrow-minded idiocy of the GOP lemmings.

What I find most offensive is not that they voted Republican, that's their right, but that they somehow consider appropriate to classify all Democrats as second-class Mormons who are betraying God.

I'm on the other side of the world and I find it enfuriating. I can't imagine how bad it must be in the (now thankfully dissapointed) Republican enclave of Utah.

[slamarwi]

From reading many of the previous posts, It is truly unfortunate that we are accepting the policies and practices of the world. There is likely no PARTY that truly is representative of the values espoused by the church membership, however is should be important for voters to choose those CANDIDATES those that most closely align themselves with our beliefs.

This does not necessarily mean that Romney was the only choice. However, If you had to choose between two candidates - which for the 2012 general election was basically true, it seems like someone that has our religious and family values, is able to attend the temple, and understands the importance of a chosen land would be the better choice of the two candidates.

I agree with previous writers that we should be Christlike and charitable (the ability to give freely), but we should not condone (the absence of objection) the perverse and evil practices of this generation.

We as a nation, will regret electing this president for a second term.

Het Beste - lwiscombe