Stargazer Posted September 17, 2012 Author Posted September 17, 2012 Not sure what you mean by "low-carb" diet. Do you mean a meat rich diet?A meat-rich diet is by definition "low-carb". However, it is nevertheless possible to eat vegetarian and be low-carb. I have little interest in such, and thus can provide no examples, but I have been told by people I trust that it is possible, so I give it credence. I think some varieties of beans are high in protein and low in carbs.
Stargazer Posted September 17, 2012 Author Posted September 17, 2012 When the revelation was first given, it was not given as a commandment because many Church members were used to (or possibly addicted to) those substances; and to have given it as a commandment would have made all of them instant sinners and disobedient to the commandments. So a time was required for Church members to adjust to the the new advice given. But after a period of time the salient points of it were made a commandment. I can illustrate the point with an example from secular society. Marijuana is declared in most countries to be illegal, whereas tobacco is legal; while tobacco is more harmful to your health than marijuana. So why the difference in the law? The answer is that tobacco has been legally consumed in most countries long enough that too many people are hooked on it already, and it is not reasonable and practical to suddenly make it illegal. But with progressive negative advertising, and the numbers of tobacco consumers gradually declining, a time may come when it becomes practicable to make it illegal. If tobacco had been a new drug, without the consumption history behind it, I am sure it would have been declared illegal from the start.Not saying that you are wrong, but I have never heard this expressly stated by any authority, so while I might accept it as a likely speculation, I believe this is nevertheless a mere speculation. No CFR implied, but if you can give an authoritative reference that would be nice.
Stargazer Posted September 17, 2012 Author Posted September 17, 2012 Are you suggesting that we NOT take the spirit of the law into consideration? PNot at all. However, there's degrees of that. The spirit of the WoW would suggest that though Dr. Pepper is not coffee, perhaps not drinking it should be taken as part of the Spirit of the WoW because of the caffeine -- not because caffeine is specifically part of the WoW, but just because it is a problematic substance. But inasmuch as stated Church policy militates against "freelancing" personal interpretation as leaders (i.e. a leader asking about Dr. Pepper usage in a TR interview), it might be for one person a matter of observing the "spirit" of the WoW by avoiding all caffeinated drinks -- but not to teach and advocate that in a church setting.
Stargazer Posted September 17, 2012 Author Posted September 17, 2012 Just a personal observation...I have started a few threads on this board, but this is the first time that any thread of mine has gone on past the second page! I was beginning to think I was too boring to come up with a topic that would interest folks.Thanks to all of you who have chimed in so far!
zerinus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 A meat-rich diet is by definition "low-carb". However, it is nevertheless possible to eat vegetarian and be low-carb. I have little interest in such, and thus can provide no examples, but I have been told by people I trust that it is possible, so I give it credence. I think some varieties of beans are high in protein and low in carbs.I would not trust a dieting regime based on breaking the word of wisdom by advising a meat rich diet for example. I would stick to a vegetarian diet and avoid shugary or fatty stuff like cream and milk products.
zerinus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Not saying that you are wrong, but I have never heard this expressly stated by any authority, so while I might accept it as a likely speculation, I believe this is nevertheless a mere speculation. No CFR implied, but if you can give an authoritative reference that would be nice.What authoritative reference? You already have the greatest gospel authority on the planet right here. You don't know how lucky you are, do you!
Stargazer Posted September 17, 2012 Author Posted September 17, 2012 What authoritative reference? You already have the greatest gospel authority on the planet right here. You don't know how lucky you are, do you! Apparently not!
spartacus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Some thoughts:1) Though it may have been worked out, I believe the context of both 89 and 27 show that "wine" is not grape juice in that both refer to wine directly along with "strong drink". If it shows up twice over three years the two seem to be more alike than juice and liquor.2)When did the WoW become a commandment/requirement for temple attendance? Where is the revelation on this? I did find this from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:The introduction to the 1835 printing of the revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants indicated that it was given as counsel or advice rather than as a binding commandment, though the revelation states that it was "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints" (D&C 89:3). Compliance with its teachings was sporadic from the late 1830s until the early years of the twentieth century. The Church encouraged leaders to be an example to the people in abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee; but no binding Church policy was articulated during this time.The prohibition movement, spearheaded by the Protestant Evangelical churches in America, focused on alcohol consumption as a political rather than a moral issue. The movement intensified the Church's interest in the Word of Wisdom. There is evidence that Church Presidents John Taylor, Joseph F. Smith, and Heber J. Grant wanted to promote adherence to the Word of Wisdom as a precondition for entering LDS temples or holding office in any Church organization; and indeed, by 1930 abstinence from the use of alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea had become an official requirement for those seeking temple recommends. While abstinence from these substances is now required for temple attendance and for holding priesthood offices or other Church callings, no other ecclesiastical sanctions are imposed on those who do not comply with the Word of Wisdom.That helps with the first question of when, but not where the revelation that changed temple requirements is recorded.3) Someone (I'll be lazy and not sift backwards thru the thread) suggested that the WoW was put in place as commandment once LDS members were better ready for it. I suppose that might be true but it seems a century is an awful long time to get adjusted - certainly longer than converts get today.
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 There are no "moderate positive effects of drinking moderate amounts of alcohol" in Mormonism.The is nothing special about Mormon physiology. We physically react to alcohol just like every one else.
Saints Alive Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 I wonder what the reaction would be if next general conference the Prophet told us that we must abstain from meat from the months of April to september and eat no more than 6 oz of meat per day during the months of October to March unless you live in a famine stricken country.
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 The question for me is if the negative and positive effects of drinking are taken together in total and not just one aspect looked at it at a time, what the overall effect would be for most people.And since the positive beneficial effects can be duplicated by other foods, for me the only significant positive effect might be the effect it has on taste as I hear it can enrich tastes through its chemical interactions plus there can be positive social benefits from the relaxation/disinhibiting effect it can have in small amounts, I think.Unfortunately, many of those who probably benefit from the social aspect of alcohol the most are likely to also overindulge due to want to suppress nervousness.The combined effects don't cancel each other out. Overall there is a net moderate positive effect. Unfortunately that moderate positive effect can be overridden pretty quickly by using more alcohol. For most people a single glass of wine with a meal a couple of times a week wouldn't produce any net harm.It's a bit of complicated biochemistry. Must flavor compounds are water soluble. That's why foods taste the way they do. Additionally some flavor compounds are alcohol soluble. Without the alcohol we'd never taste them. That's why some foods taste "better" with a small amount of alcohol. When we cook with alcohol a very small amount of alcohol remains no matter how much we cook it.That's not to say we physically need alcohol. We can live a long and prosperous life without it(With the exception for the tiny amount of alcohol produced in our lower gut). For the Saints we have covenanted with our God not to imbibe. That is a religious decision and not a physiological one.That's why people pay me the bigger bucks to help them overcome that social nervousness.
urroner Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 The is nothing special about Mormon physiology. We physically react to alcohol just like every one else.I will disagree with that TSS.This is what I see in the mirror before drinking:This is what I see after:Sadly, I don't drink, so I'm always an old, old......very old man.
zerinus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 The is nothing special about Mormon physiology. We physically react to alcohol just like every one else.Well I didn't say that alcohol is bad just for Mormons. I think it is bad for everybody! However, if you are looking for something "special" about the Mormons, it is not in their physiology, but in their revelations. It is in the gift of the Holy Ghost. One of the adverse effects of alcohol is actually spiritual. For a Mormon that may be the most serious part of it. One of the things that alcohol does (in any amount) is that it dulls your spiritual senses, and leaves you open to spiritual deception. That may be the most important reason why it has been prohibited to Latter-day Saints at this time.Remember the promises that are given for obdeince to the Word of Wisdom? They are not all temporal; some of them are spiritual; such as finding "wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures". That basically means revelation. And it is conditional on obedience to the laws. It is a very foolish person indeed who would exchange the revelations of God for a glass of wine.
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Zerinus:I have no problem with revelation. I think it's cool myself. Please don't make absolutest statements. Our own bodies produce alcohol. It's in those delicious yeast/sour dough breads we love to eat. Vinegars have a very small amount of alcohols in them. The list is practical endless of things we eat that have at least some alcohol.For some of the positive effect of wine consumption seehttp://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20120524/drinking-red-wine-is-good-for-gut-bacteriaI am not saying that anyone needs to drink alcohol. Further as the Saints are covenanted with God not to do so. I'm fine with the Saints not drinking the stuff.
zerinus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Zerinus:I have no problem with revelation. I think it's cool myself. Please don't make absolutest statements. Our own bodies produce alcohol. It's in those delicious yeast/sour dough breads we love to eat. Vinegars have a very small amount of alcohols in them. The list is practical endless of things we eat that have at least some alcohol.For some of the positive effect of wine consumption seehttp://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20120524/drinking-red-wine-is-good-for-gut-bacteriaI am not saying that anyone needs to drink alcohol. Further as the Saints are covenanted with God not to do so. I'm fine with the Saints not drinking the stuff.I am fine with anybody not drinking the stuff. You sound a lot like somebody making excuses. Ummm, not sure what to make of that.
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 What excuses? Does the recognition of reality somehow threaten your beliefs? It sure doesn't mine.
zerinus Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) What excuses? Does the recognition of reality somehow threaten your beliefs? It sure doesn't mine.More excuses still! Amazing!--the lengths to which people go to justify their words. Edited September 18, 2012 by zerinus
Verum Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 When you as a Latter-day Saint are asked in a worthiness interview if you "keep the Word of Wisdom", do you consider these verses covering the consumption of animal flesh when answering "Yes" or "No"? And if you do consider these verses when so answering, how much consumption would you call "sparingly"?I think that one who is more spiritually in tune with the principle of the Word of Wisdom would consider this as well. However, I think the real problem lies with how church leadership views the word of wisdom. For example, say I run into my bishop at a Brazilian steakhouse where they serve 12 different kinds of meats and is all-you-can-eat. I am obviously not living up to the eat meat sparingly principle given in the word of wisdom. Do you think the bishop would consider me unworthy? Now, suppose I run into my bishop somewhere with a cup of coffee in my hand. Which scenario would my bishop consider more severe? I think most of us would agree that the bishop would more likely consider the coffee drinking incident as a more severe violation of the word of wisdom and the scenario that would most likely put my temple recommend at most risk regardless of how often I drink coffee or how frequent I eat meats.
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Verum:While eating too much meat isn't good for you. The WoW doesn't preclude eating meat. However drinking coffee is.
Saints Alive Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Verum:While eating too much meat isn't good for you. The WoW doesn't preclude eating meat. However drinking coffee is. I think you are on the right track. Meat is not prohibited in as strong of terms as hot and strong drinks but its use is discouraged. " And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." D&C 89:13I think the real issue is that "hot drinks" and "strong drinks" have been spelled out as Coffee, tea, and all forms of alcohol and their use has been specifically forbidden by other Prophets and GAs. There has not been a similar explanation of what it means to eat meat sparingly. What is sparingly? once a day, once a week, a month? What may be sparingly for one might be gluttony for another.
Tacenda Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 I think you are on the right track. Meat is not prohibited in as strong of terms as hot and strong drinks but its use is discouraged. " And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." D&C 89:13I think the real issue is that "hot drinks" and "strong drinks" have been spelled out as Coffee, tea, and all forms of alcohol and their use has been specifically forbidden by other Prophets and GAs. There has not been a similar explanation of what it means to eat meat sparingly. What is sparingly? once a day, once a week, a month? What may be sparingly for one might be gluttony for another.Especially when red meat is damaging to the heart! Is coffee? Possibly. My dad drank coffee and was sealed in the temple with my mom but couldn't adhere to the WoW as far as his coffee. It helped him with his chronic back pain. But he later died of a heart attack. But he also loved his pastries and sweets. So maybe I should look to see if there are studies about coffee and heart disease. I'll check back...
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Saints Alive:I think you are on the right track. Meat is not prohibited in as strong of terms as hot and strong drinks but its use is discouraged. " And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." D&C 89:13I think the real issue is that "hot drinks" and "strong drinks" have been spelled out as Coffee, tea, and all forms of alcohol and their use has been specifically forbidden by other Prophets and GAs. There has not been a similar explanation of what it means to eat meat sparingly. What is sparingly? once a day, once a week, a month? What may be sparingly for one might be gluttony for another.A piece of meat about the size of a deck of cards 2-3 times a week should fill the nutritional protein needs of most meat eaters. Vegetarians could use soy, milk(cheese), eggs, or quinoa products. Those with allergies, or special medical needs, of course must follow the best medical advice of their doctors. I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves what is sparingly and what is gluttony. I think that while we can avoid the drinking of alcohol(Beer, Wine, and Spirits). It is very hard(if not impossible) to avoid all alcohol. All fermented products from Kimchi to vinegar to yeast breads have at least minute quantities. What we can do is avoid its unnecessary consumption.
Saints Alive Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Saints Alive:A piece of meat about the size of a deck of cards 2-3 times a week should fill the nutritional protein needs of most meat eaters. Vegetarians could use soy, milk(cheese), eggs, or quinoa products. Those with allergies, or special medical needs, of course must follow the best medical advice of their doctors. I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves what is sparingly and what is gluttony.But we aren't talking about nutritional needs. We are talking about what is sparing use. You can get all your protein and fat needs from non-animal sources so there is no need to use meat at all. My point is that what types of drinks we can have is, for the most part, clearly delineated. The GAs don't get into the residual alcohol content of yeast bread or orange juice but it is clear we are to not drink alcoholic beverages. There is no such definition for using meat sparingly.
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