Dead Wrong?

[wenglund]

As an exercise in critical thinking, in a thread that is now closed, robuchan claimed that several assertions I had made were "dead wrong" (see his post #87). Since that thread has been closed, I think it may be instructive to critically test both our claims in this thread:

Let's start with my first assertion:

1) "Since we aren't privy to the market research or the sales records, then reason and personal integrity suggests that it would be irresponsible at best for us to judge the accuracy, let alone the honesty, of the statement."

My assertions had in mind the only statement that was actually quoted from Carrie Jenkins: "'Dining Services has made the decision to not sell or serve caffeinated beverages on campus,' she told FOX 13. 'Simply based on what our customers want or do not want.'”

Granted, the blog post linked to in the OP did mention: ""At the LDS Church-owned Brigham Young University, caffeinated drinks are not sold. It is not because of a church or university edict, said spokeswoman Carri Jenkins, but customer demand."

This, however, wasn't a direct quote from Carri (as evinced by the absence of quote marks in the blog), but presumably a paraphrase by the author of the blog. And, since it was a paraphrase, and since I had no way of confirming the accuracy of the paraphrase, I didn't address it, and spoke only to what could be confirmed--i.e. whether the decision to not serve caffeinated drinks was based simply on what customers want or don't want.

In short, I was speaking to whether or not any of us were in a position to judge the accuracy and honesty of what Carrie was actually quoted as saying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 4, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

With this having been said, I asked robuchan to substantiate his claim that I was "dead wrong."

Here is his response:

"It's clear to anyone who has any understanding of BYU and Provo culture. Caffeinated beverages as a whole (Coke, Diet Coke, Pepsi, Mtn Dew, Dr Pepper) are by far preferred by BYU students and other LDS. They are sold in every single restaurant and store in the area. UVU's student body is essentially the same makeup as far as LDS mix. If you go out to lunch with LDS coworkers or friends, you will notice caffeine drinks are the most common orders."

Aside from this being entirely anecdotal, it is also irrelevant. It speaks to alleged purchasing patterns outside of BYU. It doesn't speak to purchasing patterns at BYU.

It also doesn't demonstrate that my statement was "dead wrong." To do so would require showing that we are privy to pertinent "market research or the sales records" and are thus in a position to judge whether it was honest or not for Carri to say that "the decision to not sell or serve caffeinated beverages on campus" was "Simply based on what our customers want or do not want."

Care to try again?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Grimace]

What is the point of this thread? To prove you were not dead wrong?

[wenglund]

What is the point of this thread? To prove you were not dead wrong?

As clearly and explicitly stated in the OP, the purpose of this thread is to exercise our critical thinking skills by testing both my assertions and robuchan's counter-claim. Had you exercised even a modicum of critical thinking, this would have been self-evident.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Grimace]

As clearly and explicitly stated in the OP, the purpose of this thread is to exercise our critical thinking skills by testing both my assertions and robuchan's counter-claim. Had you exercised even a modicum of critical thinking, this would have been self-evident.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Does anyone still care about soda pop sales at BYU? I think maxrep showed that vendor agreements support the notion that BYU prohibits sales of caffeinated soda on-campus. Oh well, whatever turns your crank.

[DavidB]

Here is my input, neither party can prove either dead wrong.

[maxrep12]

What is the point of this thread? To prove you were not dead wrong?

The point of the thread is to suspend common sense, ignore the local retail practices that engulf BYU, and play along with the semantics of Wade so he can try and save a little face.

Wade, I am sincerely bored. I think we are all past bored at this point.

[wenglund]

Does anyone still care about soda pop sales at BYU? I think maxrep showed that vendor agreements support the notion that BYU prohibits sales of caffeinated soda on-campus. Oh well, whatever turns your crank.

None of this addresses the issues I raised in my OP. Had you exercised a modicum of critical thought, as the OP suggests, this would have been self-evident.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[robuchan]

As an exercise in critical thinking, in a thread that is now closed, robuchan claimed that several assertions I had made were "dead wrong" (see his post #87). Since that thread has been closed, I think it may be instructive to critically test both our claims in this thread:

Let's start with my first assertion:

1) "Since we aren't privy to the market research or the sales records, then reason and personal integrity suggests that it would be irresponsible at best for us to judge the accuracy, let alone the honesty, of the statement."

My assertions had in mind the only statement that was actually quoted from Carrie Jenkins: "'Dining Services has made the decision to not sell or serve caffeinated beverages on campus,' she told FOX 13. 'Simply based on what our customers want or do not want.'”

Granted, the blog post linked to in the OP did mention: ""At the LDS Church-owned Brigham Young University, caffeinated drinks are not sold. It is not because of a church or university edict, said spokeswoman Carri Jenkins, but customer demand."

This, however, wasn't a direct quote from Carri (as evinced by the absence of quote marks in the blog), but presumably a paraphrase by the author of the blog. And, since it was a paraphrase, and since I had no way of confirming the accuracy of the paraphrase, I didn't address it, and spoke only to what could be confirmed--i.e. whether the decision to not serve caffeinated drinks was based simply on what customers want or don't want.

In short, I was speaking to whether or not any of us were in a position to judge the accuracy and honesty of what Carrie was actually quoted as saying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If this was market research about a product or a customer base that was not widely understood, you would have a point. But the demand of caffeinated beverages by BYU students is well understood. Read the comments on the BCC blog. Many of them are BYU students. It's a ridiculous notion to anyone remotely associated with BYU or Provo life, that there is no demand for caffeinated soda on campus.

[wenglund]

The point of the thread is to suspend common sense, ignore the local retail practices that engulf BYU, and play along with the semantics of Wade so he can try and save a little face.

Wade, I am sincerely bored. I think we are all past bored at this point.

I realize that critical thinking is a bit much for you. However, please realize that your irrational dismissal isn't going to fool anyone but perhaps you.

If the level of analysis in this thread bores you, or if you fear that your petty and overly judgmental quibble will be exposed for what it is, then feel free to move along in silence and avoid cluttering the thread needlessly with banality.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

If this was market research about a product or a customer base that was not widely understood, you would have a point.

Actually, if it is market research that is specific to the location, then I would have a point.

It is.

Care to try again?

(I should let you know that professionally I have written a number of business plans, and so I am not entirely unacquainted with what types of research and analysis go into product decision-making.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[robuchan]

Actually, if it is market research that is specific to the location, then I would have a point.

It is.

Care to try again?

(I should let you know that professionally I have written a number of business plans, and so I am not entirely unacquainted with what types of research and analysis go into product decision-making.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That's fabulous. Apparently none of your business plans were related to soft drink sales to BYU students or you would already know how dumb you look not giving up on this point.

Read the comments at BCC. Read the link at comment 78 to a BYU sports message board with 20 comments on a thread calling Jenkins a liar. These are BYU sports fans not borderlanders.

Where do you live, Wade? I'm assuming you don't live near Provo. Did you attend BYU? This is laughable to everyone associated with BYU and the Provo community.

[wenglund]

That's fabulous. Apparently none of your business plans were related to soft drink sales to BYU students or you would already know how dumb you look not giving up on this point.

You are here inanely rephrasing your previous assertion. Sorry, but that isn't a valid substitute for critical analysis. Rather, it is fallacious.

If you are incapable on your own of thinking critically about this, that is okay. I can be of some assistance. Let me be of help by asking a few critical questions:

1) Generally speaking, are you at all familiar with what kinds of research and analysis that is involved in making wise product decisions, particularly for specific locations (perhaps you have heard the quote about "location, location, location"?)?

2) If so, could you list a couple of the more important ones that come to mind?

Once you have answered these questions, I have several more to ask--which I trust will demonstrate who actually is looking dumb holding on to their point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[robuchan]

You are here inanely rephrasing your previous assertion. Sorry, but that isn't a valid substitute for critical analysis. Rather, it is fallacious.

If you are incapable on your own of thinking critically about this, that is okay. I can be of some assistance. Let me be of help by asking a few critical questions:

1) Generally speaking, are you at all familiar with what kinds of research and analysis that is involved in making wise product decisions, particularly for specific locations (perhaps you have heard the quote about "location, location, location"?)?

2) If so, could you list a couple of the more important ones that come to mind?

Once you have answered these questions, I have several more to ask--which I trust will demonstrate who actually is looking dumb holding on to their point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't have time to waste on your games. You can assume I know plenty about business to understand this issue.

[The Grimace]

Is it me or does this thread violate a couple of rules:

Personal Squabbles. If you have a bone to pick with someone else, this is not the place to do it.

Attempting to provoke people

[The Grimace]

(I should let you know that professionally I have written a number of business plans, and so I am not entirely unacquainted with what types of research and analysis go into product decision-making.)

Writing a business plan is one thing, successful execution is something else. Your business plan could be filled with all kinds of incorrect assumptions and data. So tell us, Wade, were your business ventures a success, financially?

[robuchan]

Is it me or does this thread violate a couple of rules:

Personal Squabbles. If you have a bone to pick with someone else, this is not the place to do it.

Attempting to provoke people

I agree. And I should probably quite before I get thread banned. Sorry mod's. But please note I didn't start it.

[wenglund]

Is it me or does this thread violate a couple of rules:

Personal Squabbles. If you have a bone to pick with someone else, this is not the place to do it.

Attempting to provoke people

It's you. The thread is not intended to provoke, but to exercise our critical thinking skills. I am simply using the exchange between robuchan as a means of facilitating critical thought.

And, I haven't just limited my responses to what robuchan has said. I have also examined some of your banal responses so as to further the object lesson.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I don't have time to waste on your games. You can assume I know plenty about business to understand this issue.

Unlike you, I am not into baseless assumptions. In fact, that is one of the key points of this thread. Instead, I prefer to reserve judgment until after I am in possession of the necessary and relevant data. You have yet to give any indication that you understand enough about business to be in a position to rationally declare my statement "dead wrong." You have simply dismissed and are now running away when I gave you a reasonable chance to substantiate your claim.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[robuchan]

Unlike you, I am not into baseless assumptions. In fact, that is one of the key points of this thread. Instead, I prefer to reserve judgment until after I am in possession of the necessary and relevant data. You have yet to give any indication that you understand enough about business to be in a position to rationally declare my statement "dead wrong." You have simply dismissed and are now running away when I gave you a reasonable chance to substantiate your claim.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well since you know by now that everyone remotely associated with BYU knows the Carrie Jenkins statement is laughable, I think you're taking a good strategy, isolating on my business experience. Alas, you're wrong on that, too. But I'll let you win because I have no interest listing my business credentials here.

[wenglund]

Writing a business plan is one thing, successful execution is something else. Your business plan could be filled with all kinds of incorrect assumptions and data.

I don't disagree. However, your point, as with much of what you have said here, isn't relevant to my critical analysis of robuchan's claim.

So tell us, Wade, were your business ventures a success, financially?

Not that it is any of your business or the least bit relevant to the issue at hand, but who said anything about them being "my" business ventures?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Well since you know by now that everyone remotely associated with BYU knows the Carrie Jenkins statement is laughable, I think you're taking a good strategy, isolating on my business experience.

You keep making fallacious appeals to ridicule as though this somehow substantiates your point. It doesn't. It simply demonstrate a lack of critical thought on your part.

I am touching on your business experience as a means of encouraging you to think critically and so that perhaps you may realize that because you haven't been thinking critically you may be falsely projecting about me being "dead wrong" and "looking dumb."

Alas, you're wrong on that, too.

I am wrong to not to make assumption about what pertinent business experience you may have, but to wait until you demonstrate one way or the other? How so? I am sorry, but you aren't making sense.

But I'll let you win because I have no interest listing my business credentials here.

That's fine. I wasn't looking to win, nor was I asking for your business credentials (do you always have this much trouble not getting things straight?). I simply asked what you might know about the kinds of research and analysis that go into product decision-making for a specific location, and this so as to move forward with critically testing the claim you leveled against me. If you don't wish to work with me in rationally substantiate your claim, that is your choice. I can move forward without you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DBMormon]

wade you broke the rules

I realize that critical thinking is a bit much for you.

It's only a matter of time

[robuchan]

You keep making fallacious appeals to ridicule as though this somehow substantiates your point. It doesn't. It simply demonstrate a lack of critical thought on your part.

I am touching on your business experience as a means of encouraging you to think critically and so that perhaps you may realize that because you haven't been thinking critically you may be falsely projecting about me being "dead wrong" and "looking dumb."

I am wrong to not to make assumption about what pertinent business experience you may have, but to wait until you demonstrate one way or the other? How so? I am sorry, but you aren't making sense.

That's fine. I wasn't looking to win, nor was I asking for your business credentials (do you always have this much trouble not getting things straight?). I simply asked what you might know about the kinds of research and analysis that go into product decision-making for a specific location, and this so as to move forward with critically testing the claim you leveled against me. If you don't wish to work with me in rationally substantiate your claim, that is your choice. I can move forward without you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Please don't feel restrained by my lack of interest in discussing landmark marketing product research studies with you. Move forward by all means.

It's a little silly to joust over credentials on a topic like this, but I hope you trust me that I know what I'm talking about. Business studies are not like scientific studies. Studies are expensive and data is never perfect. I can tell you with 100% surety that there is so much anecdotal evidence that there is a high demand for caffeine beverages at BYU that no study is needed. The cost of an experiment would be lower than a study. You throw out Diet Coke in a vending machine and see what happens. That is your market study. The bookstore doesn't do a research study every time they think about changing inventory.

You suggesting that discussion and analysis of the concept of marketing product research is warranted is further evidence you don't know what you're talking about on this issue.

[Nemesis]

Wade,

There is a reason why threads are closed. Don't do this again.

Nemesis