Lds Church Issues Statement Re: Church Finances

[cwald]

Okay. Can anyone here just explain to me, in simple terms, without getting personal and throwing me under the bus, why me as a tithe payer, cannot go into SLC HQ and ask for a church finance statement? I could do that for almost any other church, non profit, or government entity. Why will the church not tell me how my tithing funds are being used?

Edited July 13, 2012 by cwald

[KevinG]

Okay. Can anyone here just explain to me, in simple terms, without getting personal and throwing me under the bus, why me as a tithe payer, cannot go into SLC HQ and ask for a church finance statement? I could do that for almost any other church, non profit, or government entity. Why will the church not tell me how my tithing funds are being used?

I would start with the Bishop and Stake President and ask what is being done locally. There are a lot of reasons why you won't get a line item report. Privacy of those being helped is a biggie. The disbursement of church finds not being a part of your calling is another.

Of course these are my reasons not the brethrens. It might be worth you while to write a letter and ask if you have concerns about how the money is accounted for.

Edited July 13, 2012 by KevinG

[smac97]

This does appear to be a direct response to the Bloomberg article "How the Mormons Make Money" as it addresses many of the same issues.

Here's the cover of that issue:

[ERayR]

Okay. Can anyone here just explain to me, in simple terms, without getting personal and throwing me under the bus, why me as a tithe payer, cannot go into SLC HQ and ask for a church finance statement? I could do that for almost any other church, non profit, or government entity. Why will the church not tell me how my tithing funds are being used?

Not trying to be snarky but once you have donated it the money you donated is not yours. It belongs to the donee (in this case the church). All you need to do is ask the IRS for the Foorms 990 filed by the church.

[KevinG]

Oh. that's not a hit piece at all. I can tell by the respectful cover art.

[TAO]

Okay. Can anyone here just explain to me, in simple terms, without getting personal and throwing me under the bus, why me as a tithe payer, cannot go into SLC HQ and ask for a church finance statement? I could do that for almost any other church, non profit, or government entity. Why will the church not tell me how my tithing funds are being used?

I think the main reason is to prevent journalists who are out to get the church (like the ones that wrote the Bloomberg article) from trying to make mountains out of molehills in terms of small mistakes, or even things that weren't mistakes but appear to be to others. See the Magazine Article which smac posted for an example of what those sort of people do, and why you don't really want people like that getting their hands on the church financial statements. They'd pick it through looking for anything they could criticize.

In any case, I don't think most would like sharing their paychecks with their employer (and whomever that employer chooses to share that with), so yeah.

Edited July 13, 2012 by TAO

[Analytics]

Does DMC issue stocks and bonds?

I wasn't under the impression it was a publicly held corporation.

You don't have to be publically traded to issue stocks and bonds. 100% of the shares of DMC are owned by the Church. If the Church wanted to add money to this segment of its rainny-day fund, I would presume it would do so by purchasing newly-minted DMC securities. I suppose they could just transfer the money as owners equity, but I would think these guys would be more sophisticated than that.

[wenglund]

Okay. Can anyone here just explain to me, in simple terms, without getting personal and throwing me under the bus, why me as a tithe payer, cannot go into SLC HQ and ask for a church finance statement? I could do that for almost any other church, non profit, or government entity. Why will the church not tell me how my tithing funds are being used?

In a few words, it is none of your business. What you decide to offer as tithes, is your business, and between you and the Lord. However, once you offer your tithes, the money is no longer your's, but the Lord's. It then falls under his stewardship and those he has has chosen to lead his Church. It then is his and their business, not yours. And, his chosen leaders are accountable to him for how they use his funds, not you.

The good news is, you can trust in the Lord, and off-load the usurped responsibility of minding the Lord's business, which may free you up to better mind your own business.

I would have thought this obvious, particularly to those who correctly understand the principle of charity and love.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[KevinG]

As a state employee my salary and travel expenses were open record that could be looked up on line with a few clicks. That openness did nothing to change or modify the way I ran my business but it sure caused some dissension within departments when some managers salaries were found to be different for the same grade jobs.

So I guess my question to those who want the church to open their records is WHY? What purpose would that serve other than to assuage someones curiosity?

[ERayR]

You don't have to be publically traded to issue stocks and bonds. 100% of the shares of DMC are owned by the Church. If the Church wanted to add money to this segment of its rainny-day fund, I would presume it would do so by purchasing newly-minted DMC securities. I suppose they could just transfer the money as owners equity, but I would think these guys would be more sophisticated than that.

You do make a lot of assumptions for one having absolutely no clue.

[Mudcat]

I think people tithe in general because of a need for obedience and the expectation that their money will be used to promote continuing spread of the Gospel.

I am glad the CoJCoLDS talked about financial stuff and I do mean that seriously. However, the article only hints at disclosure.

Until they actually are willing to disclose the specifics of this information. What the CoJCoLDS does with it's money is about as accessable to a tithing member as the Holy of Holies was to the devout Jew in times past.

No doubt the faithful speculation is much different from critical speculation on the topic.

I think the notion that "Nearly 30,000 bishops who oversee their respective congregations have direct access to Church funds..." leaves one with the impression that all these bishops know whats going on with the financials.. and I don't that is accurate. It might be better said that 30,000 or so bishops have access to the petty cash and don't have a clue about the rest of it.

The money thing is one of my main crits against the CoJCoLDS. IMO it shows a lack of trust towards the members. Seems like a contributor, at the very least, if not the public, has a right to know what is done with the money they contribute. But CoJCoLDS members don't nor does anyone else.

Sorry to trip.. but I gotta say it.

President Monson tear down that wall.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Mudcat

[KevinG]

What you decide to offer as tithes, is your business, and between you and the Lord. However, once you offer your tithes, the money is no longer your's, but the Lord's.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I have always understood a key purpose of tithing and offerings is sacrifice. If the money was burned on an alter by command of the Lord I would still tithe. However I love the fact that it goes out into the world and does some good like building chapels and feeding the poor.

[KevinG]

Hey Mudcat. The Bishops are aware of every penny on the Ward level. The Stake Presidents are aware of every penny on the Stake Level. The regional Representatives are aware of every penny on the regional level. The Presiding Bishopric is aware of expenditures and income on a church wide level.

I still contend that people having the detailed expenditures for every department in the church will open it up to more damaging meddling than it does any constructive purpose.

Even in a private or government budget the information I can access as a shareholder or citizen is aggregated.

[KevinG]

As a state employee my salary and travel expenses were open record that could be looked up on line with a few clicks. That openness did nothing to change or modify the way I ran my business but it sure caused some dissension within departments when some managers salaries were found to be different for the same grade jobs.

So I guess my question to those who want the church to open their records is WHY? What purpose would that serve other than to assuage someones curiosity?

I will start a new thread on this...

[smac97]

Well, this is a rather annoying comment from Joanna Brooks:

Bloomberg Businessweek

reporter Caroline Winter is out today with her highly-anticipated article “

How the Mormons Make Money

,”a profile of LDS Church financial operations which features interviews with everyone from high-ranking executives of LDS Church-owned enterprises to leading scholars of Mormonism and rank-and-file members.

...

I’ve argued frequently here that those who fear Romney’s religion impacting his day-to-day conduct as president purposefully misunderstand his career. The

Bloomberg-Businessweek

article shows that Mormon institutional culture fully supports Romney’s profit-oriented, value-neutral approach to financial decision-making.

I've seen no evidence that the LDS Church has a "value-neutral approach to financial decision-making."

And if the LDS Church was not financially prudent, then people like Ms. Brooks would be bashing the Church for misappropriating the Widow's Mite. It's a Heads-I-Win-Tails-You-Lose proposition.

-Smac

[Evangeline]

For me, paying tithes is an act of faith -- faith in God, faith that the money belongs to Him, and faith that His chosen servants will use that money for His wise purposes.

I believe that faith is a critical component in allowing us to receive the miraculous blessings that come from obedience to this law.

[Mudcat]

Hey Mudcat. The Bishops are aware of every penny on the Ward level. The Stake Presidents are aware of every penny on the Stake Level. The regional Representatives are aware of every penny on the regional level. The Presiding Bishopric is aware of expenditures and income on a church wide level.

So the Bishops aren't aware on a Stake level, let alone, a Representative level, certainly not the regional Represantitives level nor the Presiding Bishopric's level. I think the article doesn't leave you with that impression.. but that seems to be the deal.

I still contend that people having the detailed expenditures for every department in the church will open it up to more damaging meddling than it does any constructive purpose.

If your church is doing something with the money it's members have contributed that is damaging or deconstructive I would agree.

Even in a private or government budget the information I can access as a shareholder or citizen is aggregated.

In either case the information accessable is much greater.

[cinepro]

In a few words, it is none of your business. What you decide to offer as tithes, is your business, and between you and the Lord. However, once you offer your tithes, the money is no longer your's, but the Lord's. It then falls under his stewardship and those he has has chosen to lead his Church. It then is his and their business, not yours. And, his chosen leaders are accountable to him for how they use his funds, not you.

The good news is, you can trust in the Lord, and off-load the usurped responsibility of minding the Lord's business, which may free you up to better mind your own business.

I would have thought this obvious, particularly to those who correctly understand the principle of charity and love.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

During those times when the Church has almost gone Church bankrupt, then is it my business? And during the decades when the Church did publish its financials, was it the members' business then, and then when Church leaders decided to stop doing so (coincidentally, at a time of great fiscal pressure), did it suddenly stop being our business?

[wenglund]

You don't have to be publically traded to issue stocks and bonds. 100% of the shares of DMC are owned by the Church. If the Church wanted to add money to this segment of its rainny-day fund, I would presume it would do so by purchasing newly-minted DMC securities. I suppose they could just transfer the money as owners equity, but I would think these guys would be more sophisticated than that.

While that is remotely possible, even given that DMC is private holding company, it wouldn't make sense to take tax-exempt dollars (tithes) and invest them in or pass them through taxable entities.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cwald]

I Appreciate the responses, except for this one.

In a few words, it is none of your business. What you decide to offer as tithes, is your business, and between you and the Lord. However, once you offer your tithes, the money is no longer your's, ....

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Nice Wade. That is going to make people want to go back to church and be a full tithe payer again. You do great job as an apologist.

[selek1]

I Appreciate the responses, except for this one.

Nice Wade. That is going to make people want to go back to church and be a full tithe payer again. You do great job as an apologist.

The wicked take the truth to be hard.

It was true in Jesus' time, it's just as true now...

[Maidservant]

That cover can't even be true, can it? Burger King pays taxes.

I am EXCITED to be in the fold of a Church that knows exactly what to do with money. I'm glad they want to own things that allow them to move the world as necessary, such as broadcast companies and whatnot.

Money is neutral. It's a tool. Money is energy. It's not what it is, it's what you do with it.

Should the church be subject to money? Or should money be subject to it?

Should the church try to make their for-profit industries non-profit? Wouldn't that be less honest? This way, they are clear that they are for-profit and pay taxes instead of trying to put it under a non-profit idea (if they even could under the laws, of course).

I am a person for whom this is a complete non-issue. I simply don't care what happens to the money, because what are the choices? Do they secretly own a poppy (heroin) farm in Afganistan? Funding love nests of secret girlfriends? OH MY GOODNESS, JESUS OWNS SOME HAMBURGERS!!!

And I love participating financially through my offerings.

By the way, Jesus was NOT a poor man. He may have not been swimming in it, but he was at least decently well off.

[Analytics]

Perhaps because of your myopic view of the world, you haven't been exposed to broader and more widely understood meaning of "rainy day fund,"--i.e. "Rainy day fund, rainy day reserve, or emergency fund are terms used to describe a reserved amount of money to be used in times when regular income is disrupted or decreased in order for typical operations to continue." The competent reader will note that the source of those funds is nowhere stated or implied presumably because the source isn't what is relevant as well as there is a broad range of sources for such funds.

They say the church has been blessed by, "simple but sound economic principles such as avoiding debt, living within one’s means, and setting aside funds for a rainy day." The Church also says, "The vast majority of the income used to manage the Church comes from tithing." So in this context, what is the straight-forward way to interpret the "simple but sound economic principles" that they describe? It's simple: don't spend every penny of the income you rely upon to manage the church--if you are having a good year, save some of it for a rainy day. Put the money you save to productive use so that it grows.

It amazes me how many things you got wrong in such a brief comment. The Church's statement about "vast majority" was in relation to Church expenses, not income.

They said, "The vast majority of the income used to manage the Church comes from tithing."

And even were we to grant, for the sake of argument, that the "vast majority" of income comes from tithes...

Yes, for the sake of argument, let's grant that they were being honest when they said, "The vast majority of the income used to manage the Church comes from tithing."

Rather, if you were to have read and comprehended the statement correctly, you would have understood it exactly as I said.

We can agree that I certainly don't have your understanding of finance.

[KevinG]

That is going to make people want to go back to church and be a full tithe payer again. You do great job as an apologist.

While I admit Wade's approach can be abrasive many of the issues you are discussing have been asked and answered many times (search the topic on this board). Instead of depending on other posters logic and arguments to make you feel good about paying tithing perhaps approaching the Lord in faith on the matter would be more productive.

[cwald]

The wicked take the truth to be hard.

It was true in Jesus' time, it's just as true now...

Thank you for not making it personal.