Has The Church'S View Of Grace/Works Changed?

[Vance]

None of these verses comes even close to addressing the topic of understanding teachings from SCRIPTURE.

What are "scriptures" but written witnesses?

They are addressing men giving testimony to other men.

Isn't that what the epistles of Paul are as well?

You are taking them WAY out of context.

I don't see how. If it is a big deal to you, perhaps you could explain/show how I am misusing them.

Can you quote me or link me to anyone who has ever understood these verses to be talking about the nessecary of having two different authors of Scripture teach the same thing before it is acceptable?

From the 1828 dictionary.

WITNESS, n. 1. Testimony; attestation of a fact or event. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5. 2. That which furnishes evidence or proof. Laban said, this heap is a witness between me and thee this day. Genesis 31. 3. A person who knows or sees any thing; one personally present; as, he was witness; he was an eye-witness. 1 Peter 5. 4. One who sees the execution of an instrument, and subscribes it for the purpose of confirming its authenticity b his testimony. 5. One who gives testimony; as, the witnesses in court agreed in all essential facts. With a witness, effectually; to a great degree; with great force, so as to leave some mark as a testimony behind. He struck with a witness. [Not elegant.]

WITNESS, v.t. 1. To see or know by personal presence. I witnessed the ceremonies in New York, with which the ratification of the constitution was celebrated, in 1788. 2. To attest; to give testimony to; to testify to something. Behold, how many things they witness against thee. Mark 15. 3. To see the execution of an instrument, and subscribe it for the purpose of establishing its authenticity; as, to witness a bond or a deed.

WITNESS, v.i. 1. To bear testimony. The men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth. 1 Kings 21. 2. To give evidence. The shew of their countenance doth witness against them. Isaiah 3.

Isn't that what is recorded in "scripture"?

Ok, so the answer is NO, you don't have any other witnesses other than one verse from Paul.

I don't see how I am not using those verses in context. Paul is a witness. His witness is recorded in scripture. You, so far, can't provide another witness to this doctrine. (And personally, I think Paul's words are an extremely poor witness for it.)

The problem is, as I see it, that Calvin fabricated the doctrine and then went looking for verses that he could use to support it, rather than letting the scriptures speak to him.

Perhaps you thought your doctrine was beyond criticism. If so, this dialogue may have come as a big shock to you.

[wenglund]

So they can resist but they can't resist.

That is what is called a contradiction.

I see it somewhat differently. What I view him as saying is that when we choose to resist, our resistance is irresistible. It is like while I was at teen, there were times when I couldn't resist resisting my parents. On those occasions I was at once both resisting and not resisting in a non-contradictory, though oft quite stupid way,

I am not suggesting that I agree with him about God predetermining everything. I don't. I am just suggesting that his belief may not be unreasonable as he understand things.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CASteinman]

I see it somewhat differently. What I view him as saying is that when we choose to resist, our resistance is irresistible. It is like while I was at teen, there were times when I couldn't resist resisting my parents. On those occasions I was at once both resisting and not resisting in a non-contradictory, though oft quite stupid way,

I am not suggesting that I agree with him about God predetermining everything. I don't. I am just suggesting that his belief may not be unreasonable as he understand things.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Now I am entirely flummoxed. "we choose to resist, our resistance is irresistible" I have no idea how to parse that so it holds meaning for me. I also do not see how it relates to what he is saying.

It sounds to me like you are saying that our own wills are irresistible. Which -- if you are talking only about things that go on inside us -- is possibly the same thing as saying "we are unable to unthink a thought". Or "water is powerful wet stuff". But other than that, our wills are certainly resistible. At least mine is. My wife-- well so far, her will is an unstoppable force....

[wenglund]

It sounds to me like you are saying that our own wills are irresistible.

Yes. In some cases we can't resist our will to not resist the will of our spouses/significant-other. In this way the will of our spouse/significant-other also becomes irresistible to us.

Our will, then, is subjected to all sorts of irresistible wills. This works fine until the various irresistible wills, including our own, are at odds with each other.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zerinus]

The real dichotomy is not between grace versus works; but between works versus keeping the commandments. It is true that we cannot "earn" our way to heaven by our "works;" but it is equally true that we cannot be saved without repenting and keeping the commandants:

Luke 13:

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

3 Nephi 12:

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Those guys who have been arguing about grace versus works have got the wrong end of the stick.

[ERayR]

The real dichotomy is not between grace versus works; but between works versus keeping the commandments. It is true that we cannot "earn" our way to heaven by our "works;" but it is equally true that we cannot be saved without repenting and keeping the commandants:

Luke 13:

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

3 Nephi 12:

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Those guys who have been arguing about grace versus works have got the wrong end of the stick.

The works are covered by the third article of faith "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel".

What works - the.laws and ordinances of the Gospel

• 
  

[zerinus]

The works are covered by the third article of faith "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel".

What works - the.laws and ordinances of the Gospel

You still are not getting it. Think about it a bit more; the penny will drop eventually.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The real dichotomy is not between grace versus works; but between works versus keeping the commandments. It is true that we cannot "earn" our way to heaven by our "works;" but it is equally true that we cannot be saved without repenting and keeping the commandants:

Luke 13:

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

3 Nephi 12:

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Those guys who have been arguing about grace versus works have got the wrong end of the stick.

It is true no one can work their way into heaven...without grace nothing we did would matter. Paul was right that no man can boast. We are (and always have been) saved by grace. For those who believe that they are saved by works...they deny te atonement.

[zerinus]

It is true no one can work their way into heaven...without grace nothing we did would matter. Paul was right that no man can boast. We are (and always have been) saved by grace. For those who believe that they are saved by works...they deny te atonement.

Ditto.

[ERayR]

You still are not getting it. Think about it a bit more; the penny will drop eventually.

Oh I get it alright . Go back and find some of my posts on grace and works. The real relationship of grace and works can be found first in Mosiah 2:20-21. Then turn to James 2:15.

I always tell anyone who thinks works save them that works are not a payment plan.

[zerinus]

Oh I get it alright . Go back and find some of my posts on grace and works. The real relationship of grace and works can be found first in Mosiah 2:20-21. Then turn to James 2:15.

I always tell anyone who thinks works save them that works are not a payment plan.

You are still not getting it:

3 Nephi 12:

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

That is authoritative, eternal, and binding. It is eternal truth. We are all damned if we do not keep the commandments of God.

[JDave]

You are still not getting it:

Huh? You say ditto to Pa Pa, but then tell ERayR that he doesn't get it, though they both say the same thing. If you have a point to make, then make it. Telling other people they don't understand is a very confrontational and contentious way of making a point.

[zerinus]

Huh? You say ditto to Pa Pa, but then tell ERayR that he doesn't get it, though they both say the same thing. If you have a point to make, then make it. Telling other people they don't understand is a very confrontational and contentious way of making a point.

I thought I made it in my previous post.

[JDave]

I thought I made it in my previous post.

You could have done so without the preceding "you don't get it" statements.

[zerinus]

You could have done so without the preceding "you don't get it" statements.

That was demanded by his post. Try reading the rest of the conversation.

[Vance]

The problem, as I see it, is that people confuse Paul's usage of the word "works" with 'obedience to the commandments'. When I think it is rather clear from the context that he is referring to the performances of the law of Moses as understood by the Pharisees/Jews of THAT time.

Obedience to the commandments preceded the performances of the law of Moses by millennia. It is by obedience to the commandments that we fulfill our covenant of faith (or faithfulness).

The other side of the covenant is,

3 Nephi 12:20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

D&C 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

Obedience to the commandments (as covenanted) fulfills our part of the agreement. God is then obligated (by His word) to fulfill His part of the agreement.

BUT it is by His grace that He even offers the covenant to us in the first place.

So, even after ALL we can do (which is to obey His commandments by covenant), it is still by His grace that He saves us.

The works of the law of Moses have NOTHING to do with it, which I think is the point Paul makes.

[djholmess]

The problem, as I see it, is that people confuse Paul's usage of the word "works" with 'obedience to the commandments'. When I think it is rather clear from the context that he is referring to the performances of the law of Moses as understood by the Pharisees/Jews of THAT time.

Do you mean;

-Paul's contrast between works and faith was a contrast between works as properly defined in the laws and commandments of Moses

or

-Paul's contrast between works and faith was a contrast between works as defined as a misunderstanding of the laws and commandments of Moses wrongly practiced by the Jews of that time?

or something else?

Edited July 27, 2012 by djholmess

[Vance]

Do you mean;

-Paul's contrast between works and faith was a contrast between works as preperly defined in the laws and commandments of Moses

or

-Paul's contrast between works and faith was a contrast between works as defined as a misunderstanding of the laws and commandments of Moses wrongly practiced by the Jews of that time?

or something else?

IF (and that may be a big IF) I understand what you saying, I think the answer may be some of both.

I think that when Paul is contrasting between "faith" and "works" his is really contrasting between "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" and the non-gospel stuff that Moses added.

We believe that the gospel was given to Adam, and was had by Noah, and Abraham and Moses and others (See Heb 4:2, Gal 3:8 ). But the people of Moses wouldn't live it, so they were given a bunch of non-gospel stuff to lead them to Christ.

As I see it, THAT is why Paul says such things as,

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Edited to add, (Because, both Abraham and the Gospel preceded "the law" of Moses).

Acts 13:38 ¶ Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Unfortunately, Paul's usage of "the law" is not consistent thus causing confusion and misunderstanding.

Edited to add some more verses in hopes that it will clarify.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Vance

[ERayR]

That was demanded by his post. Try reading the rest of the conversation.

Zerinus I know my understanding can never match yours and that it is almost impossible to dialog with you so I will simply put you on ignore for now. Maybe I will try again but. . .

[djholmess]

IF (and that may be a big IF) I understand what you saying, I think the answer may be some of both.

I think that when Paul is contrasting between "faith" and "works" his is really contrasting between "the Gospel of Jesus Christ" and the non-gospel stuff that Moses added.

We believe that the gospel was given to Adam, and was had by Noah, and Abraham and Moses and others (See Heb 4:2, Gal 3:8 ). But the people of Moses wouldn't live it, so they were given a bunch of non-gospel stuff to lead them to Christ.

As I see it, THAT is why Paul says such things as,

Interesting, so how would you define what the 'gospel given to Adam' was? How did it differ to what was given to Moses?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You are still not getting it:

3 Nephi 12:

20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

That is authoritative, eternal, and binding. It is eternal truth. We are all damned if we do not keep the commandments of God.

Why we needed a Saviour...we cannot save ourselves. But once he came all who died as children are saved without any effort on their part.

[wenglund]

Interesting, so how would you define what the 'gospel given to Adam' was? How did it differ to what was given to Moses?

In simple terms, the gospel of Adam differed from the law of Moses in much the same way that the gospel of Christ differs from the law of Moses--the last shall be first and the first shall be last, and Moses is stuck in the middle.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Vance]

Interesting, so how would you define what the 'gospel given to Adam' was? How did it differ to what was given to Moses?

The Gospel can be summarized as,

1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,

2) Repentance (in other words, turning away from any disobedience/sin/ungodliness to obedience/righteousness/godliness)

3) Baptism, by immersion for the remission of sins

4) Reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost

5) Enduring to the end

In believing God and doing these, our (previous) disobedience is forgiven and we are "imputed for righteousness".

That is the gospel that was given to Adam and Abraham and Moses.

However,

If you will recall, the first set of "tablets" that Moses received from God were destroyed (by Moses) because of the wickedness of the people. Moses then received a lesser "law" the second time to be a "schoolmaster".

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Vance

[djholmess]

The Gospel can be summarized as,

1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,

2) Repentance (in other words, turning away from any disobedience/sin/ungodliness to obedience/righteousness/godliness)

3) Baptism, by immersion for the remission of sins

4) Reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost

5) Enduring to the end

Can you give me any OT verses that talk specifically about Adam, Noah or Abraham knowing/doing 1, 3, and 5, or is this just a BoM thing?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In simple terms, the gospel of Adam differed from the law of Moses in much the same way that the gospel of Christ differs from the law of Moses--the last shall be first and the first shall be last, and Moses is stuck in the middle.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Could you explain what you mean by gospel of Adam?