thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Craig Paxton:If your questions don't involve matters of faith or breaches of ethical conduct then you'll probably be just fine.
ksfisher Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 This is a poor example because I'm quite sure that the name of the river crossing was not used in the building of the testimony. If, however, you found out that the referenced miracles really didn't happen, but were exaggerations...Note: I am not claiming that the recorded miracles were exaggerations. I only supposed such to illustrate the fallacy of your argument.Yes, it is a poor example. If I had given it more thought I'm sure I could have thought of something that would have illustrated my point better.
Buzzard Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 The answer is quite simple. We High Priests have heard all the lessons dozens of times.To help us stay awake and give us something to talk about in group meetings,the Church wisely leaves many areas undefined. Everyone knows that.Besides, how boring it would be if there were no room for a bit of speculation!BernardAnd just where ARE the Ten tribes, anyway?Psst. Craig. You can think whatever you want in this Church, though if you can't answer the questions that open the Temple Recommend interview in the affirmative, you probable can't go there. What WILL get you into trouble and fast is to go around telling everyone you are right and the Brethren are out to lunch. Just ask Sonia Johnson or Bo Gritz.
CV75 Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Yes, it is a poor example. If I had given it more thought I'm sure I could have thought of something that would have illustrated my point better.I don't think it's all that bad--think of all the examples of imperfect people setting bad examples but were still able, in a shining moment or two, when they were at their best, to share a truthful message or tetsimony that brought someone into the Church. That is how I got into the Church! And as a new member, as "warts and all" we revealed, I still had my own tetsimony from the Lord to rely on.
Hamilton Porter Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Love this reply. I disagree. The Church should go into the biology/geology education business.
Hamilton Porter Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Hamilton Porter:We do it's called BYU. Lighten up, it was a joke.
Craig Paxton Posted June 18, 2012 Author Posted June 18, 2012 So since there is no official stance or position on how the creation actually took place I should be fine teaching a Sunday School class of teens about evolution as a more than likely explanation of how God created life? And I could also teach them that there was death prior to the fall despite the churches stance that there was no death? Right?I mean since there is no official stance on these and other topics…and I can believe what I want to believe…I should be completely safe to share my thoughts and beliefs with these teens right? If not why not? 1
Log Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 So since there is no official stance or position on how the creation actually took place I should be fine teaching a Sunday School class of teens about evolution as a more than likely explanation of how God created life? And I could also teach them that there was death prior to the fall despite the churches stance that there was no death? Right?I mean since there is no official stance on these and other topics…and I can believe what I want to believe…I should be completely safe to share my thoughts and beliefs with these teens right? If not why not?You can believe whatever you want - but it is inappropriate to teach positions and opinions opposed to the teachings of the duly appointed servants of the Lord when upon the Lord's errands. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) Craig Paxton:Sunday School is neither the time or the place for your personal speculations as to evolution, of death before the fall. Sunday School is the time and the place for the WHY God did it, not the HOW. Edited June 18, 2012 by thesometimesaint
altersteve Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 So since there is no official stance or position on how the creation actually took place I should be fine teaching a Sunday School class of teens about evolution as a more than likely explanation of how God created life? And I could also teach them that there was death prior to the fall despite the churches stance that there was no death? Right?I mean since there is no official stance on these and other topics…and I can believe what I want to believe…I should be completely safe to share my thoughts and beliefs with these teens right? If not why not?In an informal setting, yes, you can teach your opinions regarding these matters to your family, for example. But when teaching a Sunday School class, you are doing the Lord's work, and He has asked that we refrain from teaching our own personal speculations when doing so.
ksfisher Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) So since there is no official stance or position on how the creation actually took place I should be fine teaching a Sunday School class of teens about evolution as a more than likely explanation of how God created life? And I could also teach them that there was death prior to the fall despite the churches stance that there was no death? Right?I mean since there is no official stance on these and other topics…and I can believe what I want to believe…I should be completely safe to share my thoughts and beliefs with these teens right? If not why not?In general, I think we need to be careful sharing our own thoughts in a church setting. The difficulty is that because it is taught in church people may misinterpret what is being said as the actual church teaching on that subject. Especially if the class is composed of children, new converts, or newly returning members. (In High Priest's you can say anything, they can't hear what you're saying anyway).My wife related an experience to me she had in church yesterday. A sister in the ward, who is returning from inactivity and substance abuse problems, said that she had been taking a bible class in a ward building in the stake just south of us. The class instructor said that he was a former bishop. In the course of one class the instructor taught (or what this sister understood him to say) that when we die our spirits pass through the big dipper on the way to the spirit world. The sister was very confused as she had never heard this before and wanted to know where in the scriptures this was found.My wife was able to assure the sister that this teaching was not scripture based and only the teachers personal belief. 9 out of 10 of us would have recognized it as such, but this sister was very confused.In everything we teach we need to carefully consider the needs of the class as well as their level of understanding. Edited June 18, 2012 by ksfisher 1
Craig Paxton Posted June 18, 2012 Author Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) You can believe whatever you want - but it is inappropriate to teach positions and opinions opposed to the teachings of the duly appointed servants of the Lord when upon the Lord's errands.It appears that you want to have it both ways...we are free to believe whatever hasn't been nailed down we want...just don't share it. All I'm suggesting in my OP is that some clarity would be helpful. If members fell free to share there various beliefs...it would go a long way to actually fix this problem...then some clarification could take place. Edited June 18, 2012 by Craig Paxton
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Craig Paxton:Of course you can share it. As long as you clearly state that it is your personal opinion, and NOT Church teaching. However SS is still not the time or place for it.
Log Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 It appears that you want to have it both ways...we are free to believe whatever hasn't been nailed down we want...just don't share it. All I'm sugesting in my OP is that some clarity would be helpfulThere is no "both ways."Take a wise man for your example, if you will.This has always been the familiar scenario in the Church—people using perceived imperfections of the Church as a pretext for them to relax their own personal moral standards. The psychologists tell us regarding our own emotional feelings not to keep these feelings bottled up too tight, because it can lead to an explosion. So what should we do? Be like the importunate widow and complain; itemize your griefs, your doctrinal objections, your personal distastes to yourself, and then lay them all out in full detail before the Lord and get it out of your system. (You may wonder why people see me talking so much to myself.) With this understanding—you will do all this before the only Person qualified to judge either you or your tormentors. As you bring your complaints, be fully aware that he knows everything already—including everything there is to know about you.I commend the entire essay to anyone who cares to read it.
Craig Paxton Posted June 18, 2012 Author Posted June 18, 2012 Craig Paxton:Of course you can share it. As long as you clearly state that it is your personal opinion, and NOT Church teaching. However SS is still not the time or place for it.And how would I even KNOW that teaching evolutaion in a SS class is wrong without some carification? The church takes no stand on this truth....that is until someone actually dares teach it in SS.
Log Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 They give you a manual, and you have the scriptures. Choosing to contradict them is inappropriate.
Craig Paxton Posted June 18, 2012 Author Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) They give you a manual, and you have the scriptures. Choosing to contradict them is inappropriate.And there in lies the problem...the manual and the scriptures...contradict the scientific explanation for creation....all I'm asking for is that the church offer us a pathway forward...if that pathway IS the manuals, Ensign, Scripture...then IT is in conflict with reality...I'm merely asking for clarity and feel that it would be beneficial for the church to correct those of US who are in conflict with orthodox thinking. Edited June 18, 2012 by Craig Paxton
beckstcw Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 So evolution is contrary to the scriptures and manual?
jmason Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 In an informal setting, yes, you can teach your opinions regarding these matters to your family, for example. But when teaching a Sunday School class, you are doing the Lord's work, and He has asked that we refrain from teaching our own personal speculations when doing so.
Craig Paxton Posted June 18, 2012 Author Posted June 18, 2012 So evolution is contrary to the scriptures and manual?well some seem to think so....to the point that it can't be taught in a church setting...if it is...it shouldn't be taught...if it isn't then why not use it in a lesson
jmason Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 It really all depends on what the prevailing orthodoxy is. For example, six months ago in my ward Gospel Doctrine class the teacher referenced Glenn Beck, something he said, and an approving murmur rose up from the class signaling assent--or so it seemed to me. Nobody except me, it appeared, was bothered by the five minutes or so the teacher then spent in talking about what Glenn Beck said.Why? Because Glenn Beck is part of the prevailing orthodoxy of this particular ward.
Log Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) And there in lies the problem...the manual and the scriptures...contradict the scientific explanation for creation....all I'm asking for is that the church offer us a pathway forward...if that pathway IS the manuals, Ensign, Scripture...then IT is in conflict with reality...I'm merely asking for clarity and feel that it would be beneficial for the church to correct those of US who are in conflict with orthodox thinking.Choose ye this day your path. You already know what I think. I already know what you think. Just do what it is you want to do anyways. As MFB says, why stay in a church you don't believe in? Edited June 18, 2012 by Log
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2012 Posted June 18, 2012 Craig Paxton:And how would I even KNOW that teaching evolutaion in a SS class is wrong without some carification? The church takes no stand on this truth....that is until someone actually dares teach it in SS.That is a nice bit of sophistry.If your kids asks you if they may have an apple you don't launch into a prolonged discussion of the Pythagorean Theorem.The Brethren, and the manual itself explicitly says not to go off on tangential subjects.
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