inquiringmind Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) A question occurred to me as I was reading Alma 43:38 today.While on the other hand, there was now and then a man fell among the Nephites, by their swords and the loss of blood, they being shielded from the more vital parts of the body, or the more vital parts of the body being shielded from the strokes of the Lamanites, by their breastplates, and their armshields, and their head-plates; and thus the Nephites did carry on the work of death among the Lamanites.I've read things like this (in the book of Mormon) before (one example that comes to mind is "they buried their weapons of peace, or weapons of war")I'm sure this pattern of speech is used quite often in the Book of Mormon (I think almost as often as "and it came to pass"), and it seems an odd way of speaking,Does this pattern occur for some reason?Has anyone ever noticed it?Did Joseph (or anyone else) ever comment on it? Edited June 14, 2012 by inquiringmind
CASteinman Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) It may have something to do with either the engraving process on the plates (you can't erase) or it may be residual errors from the translation process Edited June 14, 2012 by CASteinman
Darren10 Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) I'm no expert but this may have something to do with how people spoke anciently. I've read in a few places how the "if/then" conditional in Hebrew used the word "and" which is awkward English but perfectly good Hebrew. "ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost," originally read, "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart with real intent having faith in Christ and he will manifest the truth of it unto you". (Red bold mine). I believe this was an attempt to make what is a perfectly good Hebraic expression more compatible to modern English.http://www.jefflinds...es.shtml#nature Edited June 14, 2012 by Darren10
Darren10 Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 It may have something to do with either the engraving process on the plates (you can't erase) or it may be residual errors from the translation processHuh? All you have to do is highlight the error and tap "Delete".
Michael Sanders Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 It's called a "no erasure" http://www.restoredcovenant.org/Document.asp?CAT=Insights&DOC=No+ErasersMike SandersBook of Mormon BelieverIndependence, MO
Maestrophil Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 It doesn't seem so odd to me if the "or" functions as "in other words" . Then we have "they being shielded from the more vital parts of the body, in other words, the more vital parts of the body being shielded from the strokes of the Lamanites, by their breastplates, and their armshields, and their head-plates"
bcuzbcuz Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 A question occurred to me as I was reading Alma 43:38 today.While on the other hand, there was now and then a man fell among the Nephites, by their swords and the loss of blood, they being shielded from the more vital parts of the body, or the more vital parts of the body being shielded from the strokes of the Lamanites, by their breastplates, and their armshields, and their head-plates; and thus the Nephites did carry on the work of death among the Lamanites.I've read things like this (in the book of Mormon) before (one example that comes to mind is "they buried their weapons of peace, or weapons of war")I'm sure this pattern of speech is used quite often in the Book of Mormon (I think almost as often as "and it came to pass"), and it seems an odd way of speaking,Does this pattern occur for some reason?Has anyone ever noticed it?Did Joseph (or anyone else) ever comment on it?Some people have the habit of repeating repeating themselves for more effect or if they think people have not understood. I tend to say everything two time two times.
Michael Sanders Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 It doesn't seem so odd to me if the "or" functions as "in other words" . Then we have "they being shielded from the more vital parts of the body, in other words, the more vital parts of the body being shielded from the strokes of the Lamanites, by their breastplates, and their armshields, and their head-plates"That is true in many cases, but here is an example of a clarification to an engraved phrase which is obviously not what the abridger was intending to write: "And Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city of Bountiful..." Clearly not digging a ditch around the entire land, just to fortify the city. This type of thing in not uncommon. When you think faster than you can write. Hence, a "no eraser" clarifying word like "or" or "or rather."Mike SandersBook of Mormon BelieverIndependence, MO
inquiringmind Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 It may have something to do with either the engraving process on the plates (you can't erase) or it may be residual errors from the translation processThank you.
Craig Paxton Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 I'm no expert but this may have something to do with how people spoke anciently. Wow Darren...I've finally found something that you and I can agree on...I too believe that ancient American Nephites spoke in Olde King James English
Kenngo1969 Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 One possibility is that Joseph Smith is guileless, and that the Book of Mormon came forth pretty much in the manner in which he said it did. Another possibility is that he said, "If we're going to claim this story came forth on plates, we can't make it sound as though 'Mormon' and 'Moroni' never made any mistakes they couldn't have erased, so we'll put in an occasional, 'Oops! What I meant to write there was ...'"
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Wow Darren...I've finally found something that you and I can agree on...I too believe that ancient American Nephites spoke in Olde King James EnglishStraw man alert.
Craig Paxton Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Mola Ram Suda Ram and his wife dancing to my strawman being burned... Edited June 14, 2012 by Craig Paxton
inquiringmind Posted June 15, 2012 Author Posted June 15, 2012 One possibility is that Joseph Smith is guileless, and that the Book of Mormon came forth pretty much in the manner in which he said it did. Another possibility is that he said, "If we're going to claim this story came forth on plates, we can't make it sound as though 'Mormon' and 'Moroni' never made any mistakes they couldn't have erased, so we'll put in an occasional, 'Oops! What I meant to write there was ...'"But did Joseph himself ever say anything unerasable mistakes?
robuchan Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I'm no expert but this may have something to do with how people spoke anciently. I've read in a few places how the "if/then" conditional in Hebrew used the word "and" which is awkward English but perfectly good Hebrew. "ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost," originally read, "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart with real intent having faith in Christ and he will manifest the truth of it unto you". (Red bold mine). I believe this was an attempt to make what is a perfectly good Hebraic expression more compatible to modern English.http://www.jefflinds...es.shtml#natureWith the "Others" theory, don't we have to toss out all the Hebraic "bullseyes"? Wouldn't all that be gone after being absorbed into the Mayan culture for 1,000 years?
TomesD Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 That is true in many cases, but here is an example of a clarification to an engraved phrase which is obviously not what the abridger was intending to write: "And Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city of Bountiful..." Clearly not digging a ditch around the entire land, just to fortify the city. This type of thing in not uncommon. When you think faster than you can write. Hence, a "no eraser" clarifying word like "or" or "or rather."Mike SandersBook of Mormon BelieverIndependence, MOYes, this makes sense to me. These seem to be many cases in which the use of an idiom in another language does not quite translate. In this case, not only do you have a need to qualify the thing being said, but also economize on the space being use, hence the use of 'or' instead of something like 'in other words'.
Aliwe Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 I've read things like this (in the book of Mormon) before (one example that comes to mind is "they buried their weapons of peace, or weapons of war")Back in the Gipper's day they called the MX warhead the Peacekeeper Missile.
Palerider Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 I think this was simply Joseph's attempt to clarify something that wasn't coming off the way he wanted. If you do a search on "in other words" in the Doctrine and Covenants you see it (a lot) in it's expanded version.One begins to wonder why the Lord is having trouble expressing himself verbally when giving a revelation..........
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