Lgt And The Lamanites Of Ammon'S Mission

[robuchan]

The elements are certainly correct. There are Amalekites/Amlicites (two names for the same group, just spelled differently, see Skousen) and the Amulonites. They are now considered Lamanites because of their defection from the Nephites. There are other Lamanites who are other than the Amalekites/Amlicites or Amulonites. Why would the non-Nephite deserters be "actual Lamanites"? Well, it might be because of descent. That is certainly an option. Of course, since the intent of this section it to distinguish between the kind of Lamanite who was and was not converted, it could also refer to a Lamanite who had never been a Nephite.

How would we know which one. We could elect to say that "actual descendant" means traceable lineage. That is a possible reading, and certainly a literal one, and a "plain" one. The problem is, who declared them to of that lineage? Where do we have the record or the person (or persons) who recited lineage so that the Nephite annalist would know that they were "actual Lamanites?" If we assume that the Book of Mormon references real people, then there was no point at which the people called Lamanites would have demonstrated their lineage. Therefore, the most likely source of this label is from the Nephite recorder, and that person's assumption of what a person's heritage was. Considering that we are, at this time about 500 years later, it would be surprising if anyone took the time to provide the necessary genealogy to the Nephite recorder.

So, our literal reading is correct only if we posit that there was divine inspiration that made it correct on the plates and then assured that it was translated without change to the Book of Mormon. That is a faith position, but not one for which I can accumulate any actual evidence.

Given the impossibility of any recorder actually knowing the Lamanite lineages of all people who converted, it is therefore more likely that you are dealing with the literary necessity of distinguishing "old Lamanites" from "new Lamanites."

Would lineage be easily identified with skin color?

[thesometimesaint]

Not necessarily. I'm darker than both my bio-sibs. Plus I tan easily while they burn.

In the case of the BoM the Lamanites, and Nephites became indistinguishable pretty early on.

[Kevin Christensen]

Would lineage be easily identified with skin color?

Brant posted this on the FAIR blog on May 21st.

http://www.fairblog.org/2012/05/21/if-lamanites-were-black-why-didnt-anyone-notice/

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[zerinus]

In the case of the BoM the Lamanites, and Nephites became indistinguishable pretty early on.

How do you know?

[cdowis]

Just recently, someone pointed out the account of the Mulekites being involved in wars before they moved to Zarahelma, which means, of course, there were non-Nephite, non-Lamanite people to fight with.

They simply may have been fighting among themselves over the kingship, as recorded in Ether.

Please ignore.

Edited June 1, 2012 by cdowis

[zerinus]

They simply may have been fighting among themselves over the kingship, as recorded in Ether.

That is exactly what is implied:

Omni 1:

17 And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time; and their language had become corrupted; and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator; and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could understand them.

When no one else is mentioned, the implication is that they had war among themselves.

[mrmandias]

This doesn't agree with how God has said He communicates with mankind:

2 Nephi 31:

3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

D&C 1:

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

D&C 133:

57 And for this cause, that men might be made partakers of the glories which were to be revealed, the Lord sent forth the fulness of his gospel, his everlasting covenant [i.e. the Book of Mormon], reasoning in plainness and simplicity—

I agree that God spoke to the Nephites according to their understand, and Joseph Smith according to his.

What I don't agree is that God spoke to the Nephites and Joseph Smith according to ours.

[robuchan]

Brant posted this on the FAIR blog on May 21st.

http://www.fairblog....-anyone-notice/

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I'm aware of this interpretation, but it's awkward and unnecessary. Brant rejects the literal interpretation of "actual descendant" because it's too difficult to determine who are literal descendants, but assuming skin color correlates to bloodline is a reasonable assumption.

[Brant Gardner]

Assuming, however, that it is the former; then I would say that we basically have no option but to take the words of the book at face value,

I can agree that the text is either historical or it isn't. That is a reasonable dichotomy. I cannot, however, agree that assuming historicity requires that I take an ahistorical or even inerrant approach to the text. That doesn't follow. I understand that we differ on this, and I grant that you believe that your position is to be preferred. I simply don't agree that it is the only possible faithful position.

We either take the words of the presumed historian on trust, that he knows what he is talking about; or else we reject the entire thing as fiction or fraud. I don’t see a middle ground.

It is abundantly clear that you don't see a middle ground. I do.

All we need to assume is that the narrator (presumably Mormon) knew what he was talking about.

We can make that assumption only if we also assume that Mormon was not only inspired by the recipient of divine comprehension when he wrote. I can see that as a position that one might take, but it doesn't fit with any other scriptural text in the LDS tradition. I see no reason to privilege the Book of Mormon as a unique production among all scripture. It is pretty darn special, but I still see humans involved with the text.

We simply do not know what kind of documents and information the narrator had access to. In the absence of the necessary information, we have no choice but to assume that he knew what he was talking about, and that he was making correct use of the documentary evidence at his disposal.

We can make reasonable assumptions about the nature of the texts at his disposal based on the way he constructed his text and what he copied from the sources and what he summarized. We can make further assumptions based on who the record keepers were, and finally, based on the nature of ancient literacy and communication between different peoples. We really can have a surprising amount of information about his sources.

[Brant Gardner]

When no one else is mentioned, the implication is that they had war among themselves.

What I found was that the text is pretty consistent is using war to indicate marshall action against outsiders and contention to indicate such action inside the community.

[thesometimesaint]

Zerinus:

It says so in the BoM.

[thesometimesaint]

How do you know?

Because the BoM says so.

[volgadon]

Zerinus' "either-or" posts remind me a little of this. It is a fairly well known story.

Yes, sir. Certainly, it was I who found the body. This morning, as usual, I went to cut my daily quota of cedars, when I found the body in a grove in a hollow in the mountains. The exact location? About 150 meters off the Yamashina stage road. It's an out-of-the-way grove of bamboo and cedars.

[Freedom]

I am confused what the controversy is. I am likely a dependent of a guy named Mo who lived in what is now Scotland 2,000 years ago. Does this therefore prove that there are no Chinese people in Vancouver? I do not understand why having a group of lamanites being a descendant to of Laman prove that all lamanites must be a descendant of Laman and that Laman is the only ancestor.

As for a descendant not being a descendant: when does this occur? In most messo american genealogy. Is that proof enough? If this book takes place in messo america, and if most messo american genealogy is intentionally and openly distorted as a matter of course, should we not consider that claims of links to important ancestors should not be taken literally? You have to put the text into the context of the culture from whence it sprang.

You also have to consider the intent of the book. it is a book of sharp contrasts and over simplifications to drive home a point. King Noah is sharply contrasted with King Benjamin. Nephi (and the Nephites of the story line) is contrasted with Laman (and the Lamanites of the story line). So when the book was edited, this simple contrast was carried out. The editor pulled out stories that specifically drew out this contrast. There is also a clear exodus theme throughout the book. Events of great significance were glanced over if they did not fit into the literary theme. Stories that demonstrated the contrast between the Nephite line and the Lamanite line were stressed, stories that focused on groups with no clear link to this heritage were edited out.

[Log]

Brant posted this on the FAIR blog on May 21st.

http://www.fairblog....-anyone-notice/

I don't think I am alone in finding Brant's arguments unpersuasive.

[zerinus]

I agree that God spoke to the Nephites according to their understand, and Joseph Smith according to his.

What I don't agree is that God spoke to the Nephites and Joseph Smith according to ours.

God speaks to us in the Book of Mormon and through Joseph Smith according to our understanding.

[zerinus]

I can agree that the text is either historical or it isn't. That is a reasonable dichotomy. I cannot, however, agree that assuming historicity requires that I take an ahistorical or even inerrant approach to the text. That doesn't follow.

Except that the position I articulated was neither ahistorical nor inerrant.

I understand that we differ on this, and I grant that you believe that your position is to be preferred. I simply don't agree that it is the only possible faithful position.

I believe it is the most reasonable one; whereas yours is a highly unreasonable one.

It is abundantly clear that you don't see a middle ground. I do.

A middle ground where? There is no middle ground where there is no information to provide us with one.

Not necessarily. All we need to assume is that the narrator (presumably Mormon) knew what he was talking about. He had the necessary information or documentation (what they were is irrelevant, because we have no way of knowing anyway) to be able to correctly come to that conclusion.

We can make that assumption only if we also assume that Mormon was not only inspired by the recipient of divine comprehension when he wrote. I can see that as a position that one might take, but it doesn't fit with any other scriptural text in the LDS tradition. I see no reason to privilege the Book of Mormon as a unique production among all scripture. It is pretty darn special, but I still see humans involved with the text.

You are ignoring the detail I had mentioned:

1. The Book of Mormon is a miraculous production.
   
2. We have no access to the original historical sources used for its compilation or production.
   
3. We cannot make any assumptions about the contents of the book, the method of its creation and compilation, and any possible errors/omissions made during its composition, except what is evident from the text itself. We are entirely dependent on the text of the book itself for any information about the book.
   
4. None of the assumptions you have made about the Book of Mormon is supported by the text of the book. On the contrary, the contents and text of the book militates against your assumptions. Your assumptions are based on absence of evidence rather than evidence found within the book. You argue from silence, not from evidence found within the book.
   

We can make reasonable assumptions about the nature of the texts at his disposal based on the way he constructed his text and what he copied from the sources and what he summarized. We can make further assumptions based on who the record keepers were, and finally, based on the nature of ancient literacy and communication between different peoples. We really can have a surprising amount of information about his sources.

Except that those assumptions make no sense when reduced to concrete results and compared to the actual text of the book.

[zerinus]

What I found was that the text is pretty consistent is using war to indicate marshall action against outsiders and contention to indicate such action inside the community.

I find no such evidence. On the contrary, evidence seems consistent to the contrary:

1 Nephi 9:

4 Upon the other plates should be engraven an account of the reign of the kings, and the wars and contentions of my people; wherefore these plates are for the more part of the ministry; and the other plates are for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions of my people.

1 Nephi 12:

3 And it came to pass that I beheld many generations pass away, after the manner of wars and contentions in the land; and I beheld many cities, yea, even that I did not number them.

1 Nephi 19:

4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the other plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

2 Nephi 5:

34 And it sufficeth me to say that forty years had passed away, and we had already had wars and contentions with our brethren.

2 Nephi 26:

2 For behold, I say unto you that I have beheld that many generations shall pass away, and there shall be great wars and contentions among my people.

Jacob 3:

13 And a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, which now began to be numerous, cannot be written upon these plates; but many of their proceedings are written upon the larger plates, and their wars, and their contentions, and the reigns of their kings.

Jacob 7:

26 And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.

Enos 1:

23 And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.

Jarom 1:

13 And it came to pass that two hundred and thirty and eight years had passed away—after the manner of wars, and contentions, and dissensions, for the space of much of the time.

Omni 1:

10 Behold, I, Abinadom, am the son of Chemish. Behold, it came to pass that I saw much war and contention between my people, the Nephites, and the Lamanites; and I, with my own sword, have taken the lives of many of the Lamanites in the defence of my brethren.

17 And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time; and their language had become corrupted; and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator; and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could understand them.

Mosiah 9:

13 Therefore it came to pass that king Laman began to stir up his people that they should contend with my people; therefore there began to be wars and contentions in the land.

Mosiah 29:

7 And now if there should be another appointed in his stead, behold I fear there would rise contentions among you. And who knoweth but what my son, to whom the kingdom doth belong, should turn to be angry and draw away a part of this people after him, which would cause wars and contentions among you, which would be the cause of shedding much blood and perverting the way of the Lord, yea, and destroy the souls of many people.

14 And even I myself have labored with all the power and faculties which I have possessed, to teach you the commandments of God, and to establish peace throughout the land, that there should be no wars nor contentions, no stealing, nor plundering, nor murdering, nor any manner of iniquity

36 Yea, all his iniquities and abominations, and all the wars, and contentions, and bloodshed, and the stealing, and the plundering, and the committing of whoredoms, and all manner of iniquities which cannot be enumerated—telling them that these things ought not to be, that they were expressly repugnant to the commandments of God.

Alma 3:

25 Now all these things were done, yea, all these wars and contentions were commenced and ended in the fifth year of the reign of the judges.

Alma 16:

1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, on the fifth day of the second month, there having been much peace in the land of Zarahemla, there having been no wars nor contentions for a certain number of years, even until the fifth day of the second month in the eleventh year, there was a cry of war heard throughout the land.

Alma 28:

9 And this is the account of the wars and contentions among the Nephites, and also the wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites; and the fifteenth year of the reign of the judges is ended.

Alma 35:

13 And the people of Ammon departed out of the land of Jershon, and came over into the land of Melek, and gave place in the land of Jershon for the armies of the Nephites, that they might contend with the armies of the Lamanites and the armies of the Zoramites; and thus commenced a war betwixt the Lamanites and the Nephites, in the eighteenth year of the reign of the judges; and an account shall be given of their wars hereafter.

15 Now Alma, being grieved for the iniquity of his people, yea for the wars, and the bloodsheds, and the contentions which were among them; and having been to declare the word, or sent to declare the word, among all the people in every city; and seeing that the hearts of the people began to wax hard, and that they began to be offended because of the strictness of the word, his heart was exceedingly sorrowful.

Alma 48:

20 And thus they went forth, and the people did humble themselves because of their words, insomuch that they were highly favored of the Lord, and thus they were free from wars and contentions among themselves, yea, even for the space of four years.

Alma 50:

21 And we see that these promises have been verified to the people of Nephi; for it has been their quarrelings and their contentions, yea, their murderings, and their plunderings, their idolatry, their whoredoms, and their abominations, which were among themselves, which brought upon them their wars and their destructions.

Alma 51:

9 But behold, this was a critical time for such contentions to be among the people of Nephi; for behold, Amalickiah had again stirred up the hearts of the people of the Lamanites against the people of the Nephites, and he was gathering together soldiers from all parts of his land, and arming them, and preparing for war with all diligence; for he had sworn to drink the blood of Moroni.

22 Behold, it came to pass that while Moroni was thus breaking down the wars and contentions among his own people, and subjecting them to peace and civilization, and making regulations to prepare for war against the Lamanites, behold, the Lamanites had come into the land of Moroni, which was in the borders by the seashore.

Alma 60:

16 Yea, had it not been for the war which broke out among ourselves; yea, were it not for these king-men, who caused so much bloodshed among ourselves; yea, at the time we were contending among ourselves, if we had united our strength as we hitherto have done; yea, had it not been for the desire of power and authority which those king-men had over us; had they been true to the cause of our freedom, and united with us, and gone forth against our enemies, instead of taking up their swords against us, which was the cause of so much bloodshed among ourselves; yea, if we had gone forth against them in the strength of the Lord, we should have dispersed our enemies, for it would have been done, according to the fulfilling of his word.

Alma 62:

44 And Pahoran did return to his judgment-seat; and Helaman did take upon him again to preach unto the people the word of God; for because of so many wars and contentions it had become expedient that a regulation should be made again in the church.

Helaman 3:

14 But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.

17 And now I return again to mine account; therefore, what I have spoken had passed after there had been great contentions, and disturbances, and wars, and dissensions, among the people of Nephi.

22 And it came to pass that the wars and contentions began to cease, in a small degree, among the people of the Nephites, in the latter end of the forty and eighth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

Helaman 11:

1 And now it came to pass in the seventy and second year of the reign of the judges that the contentions did increase, insomuch that there were wars throughout all the land among all the people of Nephi.

3 Nephi 2:

11 And it came to pass in the thirteenth year there began to be wars and contentions throughout all the land; for the Gadianton robbers had become so numerous, and did slay so many of the people, and did lay waste so many cities, and did spread so much death and carnage throughout the land, that it became expedient that all the people, both the Nephites and the Lamanites, should take up arms against them.

Ether 11:

7 And they hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord, because of their wicked combinations; wherefore, there began to be wars and contentions in all the land, and also many famines and pestilences, insomuch that there was a great destruction, such an one as never had been known upon the face of the earth; and all this came to pass in the days of Shiblom.

Also (in case you are looking for a loophole), I do not consider Nephites and Lamanites to be "outsiders" in the sense that you might be considering. They were part of the same "community," just as the Mulekites would have been among themselves.

Edited June 2, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

Zerinus:

It says so in the BoM.

Because the BoM says so.

Where?

[zerinus]

I am confused what the controversy is. I am likely a dependent of a guy named Mo who lived in what is now Scotland 2,000 years ago. Does this therefore prove that there are no Chinese people in Vancouver? I do not understand why having a group of lamanites being a descendant to of Laman prove that all lamanites must be a descendant of Laman and that Laman is the only ancestor.

As for a descendant not being a descendant: when does this occur? In most messo american genealogy. Is that proof enough? If this book takes place in messo america, and if most messo american genealogy is intentionally and openly distorted as a matter of course, should we not consider that claims of links to important ancestors should not be taken literally? You have to put the text into the context of the culture from whence it sprang.

Except that the Book of Mormon is the story of a group of people who emigrated to the Americas and developed as an isolated group. The Book of Mormon itself provides no information about the Nephites (or Lamanites) coming into contact with any other pre-existent groups. Any assumptions made to that effect are just assumptions, and ones which are militated against by the text of the book. The text of the Book of Mormon not only does not give us reasonable justification to make those assumptions, but positively discriminates against making such assumptions.

[Brant Gardner]

I believe it is the most reasonable one; whereas yours is a highly unreasonable one.

Which tells me that we have no reason to continue this conversation.

[zerinus]

Which tells me that we have no reason to continue this conversation.

Probably a wise choice.

[cdowis]

Except that the Book of Mormon is the story of a group of people who emigrated to the Americas and developed as an isolated group. The Book of Mormon itself provides no information about the Nephites (or Lamanites) coming into contact with any other pre-existent groups. Any assumptions made to that effect are just assumptions, and ones which are militated against by the text of the book. The text of the Book of Mormon not only does not give us reasonable justification to make those assumptions, but positively discriminates against making such assumptions.

Do you know what an ox is? Please tell us about a self-castrating ox.

What is the opposite of "wild", such as a "wild goat" vs a "goat"?

These are not assumptions but direct references in the BOM text.

Edited June 2, 2012 by cdowis

[robuchan]

Which tells me that we have no reason to continue this conversation.

At any rate, thanks for your participation in the thread, Brant.

[zerinus]

At any rate, thanks for your participation in the thread, Brant.

The real LGT itself is also an interesting subject of discussion. While there is no doubt (indeed inevitable) that the handful of Nephites and Lamanites (and Mulekites), during the initial stages of their occupation of the land, must necessarily have occupied a very small geographical area(s), compared to the vast areas of the two continents; that need not necessarily be true as the development of their history progresses. The Book of Mormon tells the story of several groups of Nephites (and Lamanites) breaking off, and travelling great distances towards the north country. Here is an example:

Helaman 3:

3 And it came to pass in the forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.

4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.

12 And it came to pass that there were many of the people of Ammon, who were Lamanites by birth, did also go forth into this land.

So how far did they go? Could it mean as far as the Great Lakes, or even further? We have no way of knowing. No assumptions can be made about how far they went and how large an area they occupied. Here are a couple more:

Alma 63:

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.

8 And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not.

9 And it came to pass that in this year there were many people who went forth into the land northward. And thus ended the thirty and eighth year.

3 Nephi 7:

12 Therefore, Jacob seeing that their enemies were more numerous than they, he being the king of the band, therefore he commanded his people that they should take their flight into the northernmost part of the land, and there build up unto themselves a kingdom, until they were joined by dissenters, (for he flattered them that there would be many dissenters) and they become sufficiently strong to contend with the tribes of the people; and they did so.

13 And so speedy was their march that it could not be impeded until they had gone forth out of the reach of the people. And thus ended the thirtieth year; and thus were the affairs of the people of Nephi.

Edited June 2, 2012 by zerinus