100 Earth Like Planets Within 30 Light Years

[Sethbag]

That's cool, and it sounds like a cool book. The whole doctrine itself is based on the assumption that the intelligent beings on these other planets are the spirit offspring of Elohim. If you allow for them to be something other, then it's game on.

As for the spirit offspring of Elohim, LDS teachings seem to draw enough of a link between the form of the physical body and the form of the spirit, that it's hard to imagine any spirit offspring of Elohim being anything but homo sapiens in form.

[Stargazer]

I think there was some sort of large-scale amnesty a year or two back, but it took me quite a while to muster the desire to post again on this board. I had a brief spree around Christmastime or thereabouts.

Well, good to see you anyway.

What do you think about that Mormon folk doctrine? Did you ever hear it from anyone? What I heard was that Jesus died to save everyone on all the planets in the universe, and that we were on the most wicked planet of all, the only planet wicked enough, in fact, to kill its own God.

I think that the folk doctrine, if that is what it is, is reasonable. I have heard it much the way I think pretty much everyone else has heard it: through the FPR-vine. I don't know if it is actual doctrine, but I have heard it posited even further, that is that He was sent to the only people who would kill their own God. And that's one part of it that makes me reserve judgement. It's too pat, for some reason I can't put my finger on.

I just thought now that there may be a large number of planets with life on them 30 light years away, we might get some further light and knowledge on the subject in a few generations.

There has been recent work on discerning which of the stars within about 300 ly started out in the same stellar nursery / star cluster that the Sun started out in. The sun is reckoned as having orbited the galactic center about 27 times since it lit up, and though they may have spread out quite a bit since then, the main sequence stars which started life in the sun's birth cluster should all pretty much have the same orbital velocity and roughly the same orbital vector. Some of the newer instruments (including one which was built to the purpose of locating such stars) are already examining candidates.

And another interesting wrinkle is that there are supposedly huge numbers of brown dwarfs and orphan planets out there which could serve as stepping stones for physical exploration. They've found one brown dwarf with an extremely low surface temperature -- as low as a human body! Such bodies could be ram-scooped for fuel, assuming a fusion-powered spacecraft, since they would be nearly pure hydrogen. The one I am referring to is WISE 1828_2650, and is only 30ish ly away!

Exciting times we live in!

[Tarski]

Actually there is reason to think intelligent life on other planets could be human like.

What?

Is there a compelling reason why the development of the brain will not follow a distinct bipedal path absent of other evidence?

Yes, we know that evolutionary products depend on myriad random historical contingencies. Besides, evolution isn't a path. It isn't a line heading for a goal. It is a branching process.

[Sethbag]

Well, good to see you anyway.

Thanks, you too!

I think that the folk doctrine, if that is what it is, is reasonable. I have heard it much the way I think pretty much everyone else has heard it: through the FPR-vine. I don't know if it is actual doctrine, but I have heard it posited even further, that is that He was sent to the only people who would kill their own God. And that's one part of it that makes me reserve judgement. It's too pat, for some reason I can't put my finger on.

Maybe because it sounds like a blatant attack against the god-killing Jews.

And another interesting wrinkle is that there are supposedly huge numbers of brown dwarfs and orphan planets out there which could serve as stepping stones for physical exploration. They've found one brown dwarf with an extremely low surface temperature -- as low as a human body! Such bodies could be ram-scooped for fuel, assuming a fusion-powered spacecraft, since they would be nearly pure hydrogen. The one I am referring to is WISE 1828_2650, and is only 30ish ly away!

Exciting times we live in!

Maybe Brigham Young was right when he talked about man living on the Sun. Only, he meant WISE_1828_2650, but he just called it "the Sun" because he couldn't have known it would eventually be called WISE_1828_2650. Is that brown dwarf a star-like body that failed to ignite due to insufficient mass, or a remnant of a previously-burning star that has gone through its death throes? It's been a while since I read about star types, and I've forgotten.

[Bill Hamblin]

I know intergalactic space aliens are not only humanoid, but nearly genetically identical to Terrans. I've seen it on Star Trek.

[KevinG]

I know intergalactic space aliens are not only humanoid, but nearly genetically identical to Terrans. I've seen it on Star Trek.

In fact Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans and Earthlings were split off of a common ancestor with really funky DNA. I saw that episode too.

[Jeff K.]

Yeah, that would be really cool, wouldn't it? Plus it would totally make Joseph Smith not look so stupid for doing that.

Yeah, like Moses talking to a rock, or some guy putting mud on his eyes.

[Jeff K.]

What?

Yes, we know that evolutionary products depend on myriad random historical contingencies. Besides, evolution isn't a path. It isn't a line heading for a goal. It is a branching process.

I disagree in the sense that you haven't countered the argument merely explained a process which does not negate the outcome. The goal may follow a similar path for intellectual development, smaller limbs to expend more energy on the brain for example, tool manipulation resulting from smaller limbs and greater intellect.

[Jeff K.]

I think the LDS are uniquely badly positioned on this, actually. Most other Christians believe in a God devoid of body, parts, or passions, and believe that the form of the human being is not directly patterned after the form of deity. They might well have an easier time dealing with grossly non-humanoid intelligent life forms, since humanoid form isn't required. Mormons, on the other hand, believe that homo sapiens is patterned physically on the form of God, and that as people on other planets would be the spirit offspring of this same being, must share the same form. Evolution then rears its ugly head and makes this a difficult proposition. If your God is just pure energy, or some formless megabeing apart from us puny humans, there's no good reason that being couldn't just as easily by the God of TjayT's octopodes.

Your selective use of christian position is interesting, but unfortunately overlooks the rather obvious "Man in his own image" which surmises similar imagery. Not to mention the unique earth centrism of most christian religious sects, versus a less centrist LDS point of view. I realize your dislike for the church colors your response but you should look at the entire context rather than merely kicking in a limited selective point.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Jeff K.

[LDSToronto]

The scriptures have addressed these other worlds. For example, this earth is the most wicked, the only one where Christ would be killed.

CFR. The closest any scripture comes is Moses 7:36 - Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

H.

Edited March 30, 2012 by LDSToronto

[LDSToronto]

Through their scriptures, delivered to them by their own prophets and Apostles.

No. They would have their own scriptures.

I can't see how you would know this, but let's follow the thread. When you say that alien beings have their own scriptures, do you mean that alien beings have different stories of Jesus and his works on Earth?

Or do you mean something else?

H.

[Stargazer]

There has been recent work on discerning which of the stars within about 300 ly started out in the same stellar nursery / star cluster that the Sun started out in. The sun is reckoned as having orbited the galactic center about 27 times since it lit up, and though they may have spread out quite a bit since then, the main sequence stars which started life in the sun's birth cluster should all pretty much have the same orbital velocity and roughly the same orbital vector. Some of the newer instruments (including one which was built to the purpose of locating such stars) are already examining candidates.

And another interesting wrinkle is that there are supposedly huge numbers of brown dwarfs and orphan planets out there which could serve as stepping stones for physical exploration. They've found one brown dwarf with an extremely low surface temperature -- as low as a human body! Such bodies could be ram-scooped for fuel, assuming a fusion-powered spacecraft, since they would be nearly pure hydrogen. The one I am referring to is WISE 1828_2650, and is only 30ish ly away!

Exciting times we live in!

Well, I see that I didn't finish the thought in relation to the OP topic. The reason why finding the sun's siblings that originated from the same starbirth cloud is that the siblings would exhibit a similar metalicity, which both suggests an increased likelihood of having rocky planets, and an increased likelihood of having rocky planets like our own solar system's.

[Stargazer]

Maybe because it sounds like a blatant attack against the god-killing Jews.

I'm not all that into political correctness, but I suppose there's that.

Maybe Brigham Young was right when he talked about man living on the Sun. Only, he meant WISE_1828_2650, but he just called it "the Sun" because he couldn't have known it would eventually be called WISE_1828_2650. Is that brown dwarf a star-like body that failed to ignite due to insufficient mass, or a remnant of a previously-burning star that has gone through its death throes? It's been a while since I read about star types, and I've forgotten.

I doubt Brigham was thinking like that, actually. He might have been speaking off the top of his head, rather than using his prophetic organ.

WISE 1828+2650 is the archetype of its particular class of brown dwarf, which is, the Y sprectral type, it being of the Y0 subtype. And the term "brown dwarf" always meant a protostar that failed to ignite because of insufficient mass. Stars that were previously burning and have gone through their death throes are of numerous different types, including red dwarfs, white dwarfs, and neutron stars, There may be a few others, including some that have been theorized but not yet found.

[Stargazer]

I know intergalactic space aliens are not only humanoid, but nearly genetically identical to Terrans. I've seen it on Star Trek.

And they can interbreed with terran humanoids, producing viable and fertile offspring.

[TJayT]

I think the LDS are uniquely badly positioned on this, actually. Most other Christians believe in a God devoid of body, parts, or passions, and believe that the form of the human being is not directly patterned after the form of deity. They might well have an easier time dealing with grossly non-humanoid intelligent life forms, since humanoid form isn't required. Mormons, on the other hand, believe that homo sapiens is patterned physically on the form of God, and that as people on other planets would be the spirit offspring of this same being, must share the same form. Evolution then rears its ugly head and makes this a difficult proposition. If your God is just pure energy, or some formless megabeing apart from us puny humans, there's no good reason that being couldn't just as easily by the God of TjayT's octopodes.

In the end it would all depend on exactly what the alien religion looked like. If they also accepted a higher power composed of matter then I don't think the Lds would have a hard time switching from "our God has a body that looks like ours" to "our God has a body".

Still this all would depend on if they actually had a religion that we could recognize or relate to, or if they ever had or still had religions in the first place.

[thesometimesaint]

TJayT:

Octopeds are relatively smart for ocean creatures. Probably intelligent in the bird to mouse range. No where near primate let alone human intelligence levels. On other planets? Who knows, but I'd be surprised because on this planet land based bipeds have such an advantage.

[LeSellers]

I can't see how you would know [that a hypothetical extra-terrestrial civilization would have its own prophets, Apostles, and scriptures],

You really have to be kidding, right?

The Jaredites, the Nephites, the Salem Canaanites, all had their own prophets and scriptures, but none of it is in the Bible. God sent them prophets to announce His Gospel because they were His children, just as much as the Hebrews.Israelites.Jews were His children.

If there are (and I am convinced there are) other planets peopled by His children, and they are subject to the Great Plan of Happiness (and this, too, is true), then they must know about the Gospel, including the Atonement of Christ. Anything else is ridiculous to the extreme.

When you say that alien beings have their own scriptures, do you mean that alien beings have different stories of Jesus and his works on Earth?

About as different as the Book of Mormon is compared to the New Testament of the accounts of Jesus performing the Atonement in the land of Jerusalem while they were in the land of Zarahemla. Maybe somewhat more because the Nephites had access to Isaiah, Zenos, Nehum, and Zenock—but not Malachi

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Octopeds are relatively smart for ocean creatures. Probably intelligent in the bird to mouse range. No where near primate let alone human intelligence levels. On other planets? Who knows, but I'd be surprised because on this planet land based bipeds have such an advantage.

Not least of which is fire. For those who espouse evolution, fire probably contributed as much to the current state of humanity as random (or controlled) mutations and interplanetary radiation.

Having opposable thumbs is also a great advantage over other gripping mechanisms, and our odd larynx, with the attendant power of speech puts us light years ahead of any other known and most imagined* species.

* Only thought-projection or mind-reading may surpass speech.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

From us of us whom espouse evolution.

The human genome is about 250,000 years old. Fire controlled by man about 50,000-100,000 years old. It helped us by allowing us to migrate out of central Africa to the cooler regions of the Earth. Which is a good thing, but not much of a factor in our evolution as a species.

[TJayT]

TJayT:

Octopeds are relatively smart for ocean creatures. Probably intelligent in the bird to mouse range. No where near primate let alone human intelligence levels. On other planets? Who knows, but I'd be surprised because on this planet land based bipeds have such an advantage.

I would argue that trying to conform Gods eternal and infinite creations to our limited and finite experiences on this Earth just points to our tendance of pride and arrogance. Still it's not like we're ever going to find out in our lifetimes. It's fun to think about though.

[thesometimesaint]

Always fun, but until we have actual contact with an ALF of approximate human intelligence all we can really go one is what is on this planet.

[LDSToronto]

You really have to be kidding, right?

No - I don't know that it necessarily follows that prophets on Earth means that there are prophets on other planets.

About as different as the Book of Mormon is compared to the New Testament of the accounts of Jesus performing the Atonement in the land of Jerusalem while they were in the land of Zarahemla. Maybe somewhat more because the Nephites had access to Isaiah, Zenos, Nehum, and Zenock—but not Malachi

Are you saying, then, that alien scriptures contain accounts of Earthly events? Or did God and Christ have direct dealings with beings on other planets? That is, did Christ visit other planets, do miracles, give sermons, etc? Did God create peoples, lead them, perform miracles a la The Red Sea, Jonah and the Giant Fish, Burning Bush, etc?

H.

[LeSellers]

No - I don't know that it necessarily follows that prophets on Earth means that there are prophets on other planets.

It does. How else would He communicate with His children there?

Are you saying, then, that alien scriptures contain accounts of Earthly events? Or did God and Christ have direct dealings with beings on other planets? That is, did Christ visit other planets, do miracles, give sermons, etc? Did God create peoples, lead them, perform miracles a la The Red Sea, Jonah and the Giant Fish, Burning Bush, etc?

The two (direct contact and use of earthly events in "alien" scripture) are not mutually exclusive any more than they were among the Nephites.

I don't know the history of any planet but this one. I surmise from the parallel between the Nephites and Saints on other planets that God would do very much the same kinds of things on His other creations as He did on this one.

Lehi

[LDSToronto]

It does. How else would He communicate with His children there?

Maybe he visits them directly, uses technology to communicate, sends direct written messages, communicates through animals, etc... I can think of a lot of ways that he does it without using prophets like he does on earth.

The two (direct contact and use of earthly events in "alien" scripture) are not mutually exclusive any more than they were among the Nephites.

I don't know the history of any planet but this one. I surmise from the parallel between the Nephites and Saints on other planets that God would do very much the same kinds of things on His other creations as He did on this one.

So it's possible then that there are an infinite number of scriptural accounts, each residing on another planet?

H.

[LeSellers]

Maybe he visits them directly, uses technology to communicate, sends direct written messages, communicates through animals, etc... I can think of a lot of ways that he does it without using prophets like he does on earth.

While you can think of ways He might do so, it is His pattern is to use prophets and scripture (that the prophets write) to communicate officially with His people.

We have direct, individual communication with Him, too, but it's not binding on anyone but the recipient. God has always worked to create a "Zion people" on this planet, from among those who belong to His church. We have several earthly examples of His succeeding if only for a short time. That's His pattern. There is nothing but vain imagination to suggest He'd act in any other way merely because among an other set of His children.

So it's possible then that there are an infinite number of scriptural accounts, each residing on another planet?

Not only possible, I'd say the probability is 1.

Lehi