Abrahamic Test

[Truth]

Have not been on in a while and saw this thread and wanted to add to it. In fact I was contemplating this very subject on my drive into work today.

I read an article in Meridian magazine online on this very subject, I believe it was from Truman Madsen and he was discussing with BH Roberts the reason for God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Madsen said he thought about it a moment and then said that it was because Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham. That Abraham needed to know how far he would go in following God. Also that we must each go through our own test. He then went on to discuss this regarding Zion's Camp and the results and leaders that came from that experience and who was faithful.

I have often wondered if everyone truly goes through this with many leading what seems (I know the operative word is seems) charmed lives. I have seen some of the worst people, disobedient to gospel principles who seem to prosper and do well. I can't seem to explain it, it has plagued me and in fact I think has been a part of my own test or series thereof.

I know my own test(s) have been ongoing for 17+ years and taken me to the very edge of the cliff a few times. Now it seems some blessings are coming as a result, not all that I have sought or need, but to some degree it seems, to me anyway, that some I have passed, I hope so anyway. Ultimately, the point being, I won't walk away from God, I wanted to at some points, it would have been easier in some ways, but I hope I have learned something of trusting in God. I think this is a huge point of the Abrahamic test. Abraham had to believe that despite Isaac's impending death, the Lord would still fulfill the promises made to Abraham.

[Duncan]

Have not been on in a while and saw this thread and wanted to add to it. In fact I was contemplating this very subject on my drive into work today.

I read an article in Meridian magazine online on this very subject, I believe it was from Truman Madsen and he was discussing with BH Roberts the reason for God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Madsen said he thought about it a moment and then said that it was because Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham. That Abraham needed to know how far he would go in following God. Also that we must each go through our own test. He then went on to discuss this regarding Zion's Camp and the results and leaders that came from that experience and who was faithful.

I have often wondered if everyone truly goes through this with many leading what seems (I know the operative word is seems) charmed lives. I have seen some of the worst people, disobedient to gospel principles who seem to prosper and do well. I can't seem to explain it, it has plagued me and in fact I think has been a part of my own test or series thereof.

I know my own test(s) have been ongoing for 17+ years and taken me to the very edge of the cliff a few times. Now it seems some blessings are coming as a result, not all that I have sought or need, but to some degree it seems, to me anyway, that some I have passed, I hope so anyway. Ultimately, the point being, I won't walk away from God, I wanted to at some points, it would have been easier in some ways, but I hope I have learned something of trusting in God. I think this is a huge point of the Abrahamic test. Abraham had to believe that despite Isaac's impending death, the Lord would still fulfill the promises made to Abraham.

Truman Madsen was talking with Pres. Hugh B. Brown about Abraham

[Deborah]

I have seen some of the worst people, disobedient to gospel principles who seem to prosper and do well. I can't seem to explain it, it has plagued me and in fact I think has been a part of my own test or series thereof.

Doesn't that irk? Talk about being fair (another thread). I've sometimes been tempted to chuck it all to see if I could then get some of that prosperity. Fortunately I stuck with it and though I'm not the most prosperous person I do have many blessings I never thought I'd get.

[krose]

How would you define "an Abrahamic Test"?

The Kobayashi Maru. The classic no-win scenario, wherein the only way to win is to change the rules (as illustrated by Captain Kirk's success).

[Maidservant]

A few thoughts, not all in an order or necessarily connected.

First of all, you may enjoy reading the Book of Jasher version of the sacrifice of Isaac. Also you should be aware, if you are not already, that it is likely that Isaac was an adult man (he is in Book of Jasher) and was a full, willing and knowledgable participant of the experience. It is also the Sacrifice of Isaac.

I have been studying the Old Testament for a long time and where most people see it as a record of a more primitive, even barbaric, version of religion . . . I find in it the most complete temple text from one end of it to the other (and indeed on another level, into the New Testament, culminating in the book of Revelation) and if you count the Adam and Eve story as equivalent to the present endowment as presented in our ceremonies, then you can see that the other initiations as represented by further stories in the Old Testament are either 1) not permitted to us yet; or 2) present but more deeply embedded in the endowment as it is . . . and I suspect a little of both.

In any case, I have been commenting on the Old Testament in various venues for a couple decades, but when I have come to the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, I have always said, "I cannot comment here, I am simply not spiritually perceptive at this time in my life," and basically left it; as well not being satisfied with the Sunday School answer of "It represents the Savior" even though that is also obviously true. But probably in the last 6 months ago, I have been tiptoeing around this perceptually and spiritually again lately, and have had a few things open to me. Perhaps I will manage to express them here.

One thing to see is that "to be placed on the altar" is the sign of what it means to come to earth (mortal life) from our previous home (premortal life) and to encounter the struggle here. To pass through mortal life -- we have been sacrificed, we are being sacrificed, we were and are willing to be sacrificed (Isaac) by coming here to earth . . . and sacrifice here does not only mean 'being killed' (nor 'giving up something good for something better') although certainly we have died by coming to this place (spiritually dead, separated from our Father in heaven) . . . sacrifice means being sanctified, holy, by our suffering (and here suffering doesn't just mean 'pain', although that is part of it . . . the suffering of pain AND patience AND love (see 1 Corinthians 13)). We are all upon the altar, and (because of the fall) we would die. Except, as signified by the ram in the thicket, a Savior has been provided for us, so that we do not die, but are saved. And we could go into this quite deeply, but that is the gist of it.

For me, my entire life has been an Abrahamic test (slash Eve test/sacrifice). Although there have been some specific moments that, unlike some other people perhaps, I have been completely aware of. I also know I have passed them, which might seem strange to others if they were to be looking at my life from the 'outside'. And I will say here that of course I am still full of weaknesses and mistakes and even sins, and my 'passing' the tests has nothing to do with me being such a good person then or now, I'm not really. I still am completely aware of how I disappoint my God. There is one test in particular that was a turning point in my life that provided the knowledge to me of who God is . . . not 'the church is true' or 'I'm good' or 'I'm going to make to the celestial kingdom' or anything from a page . . . but a breath, a wind, a fire of a Person, a Man . . . who wants me to know him, and who wants to know me . . . and who misses me from when I left . . . and for whom an outcome where I don't come home is unacceptable. So he and I agree on that . I also know something about myself from these tests (NOT what God knows about me, as he already knows) . . . my Father in heaven is never going to be able to get rid of me. He is stuck with me. :) And I'm stuck with him :) . He's my family, he's my friend, he's my teacher. We fight a lot, but we always manage to make up and start over again and keep going.

Oh . . . and to some posters who believe that some escape . . . no one does . . . everyone has their burdens, most we can't see . . . all are on the altar.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Maidservant