Nominee Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Uh...Nominee, you just reposted what was originally removed. LOL Oh shute. Didn't think that one all the way through! ha ha!
MMMillie Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 The Bible separates, many times the Lord Jesus Christ FROM that "one" God.So, now what?Not exactly. It is that you go beyond the Bible to get your definition of what exactly "one God" means.Ok, so what is the "more plausible" interpretation of these verses?Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: • • • 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:1 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. ......etc...Is it possible that the authors of the Synoptics differed entirely in their views of Jesus v. God compared with the author of John's prologue v. the author(s) of the body of the 4th Gospel? And that they all differed from the view of Paul? Both Paul in quoting the Christ Hymn in Philippians and the author of the Prologue clearly believed in some sort of pre-existence for Jesus, but do the Synoptics? Does Paul's pre-existent Christ comport well with the Logos of the Prologue? It seems fairly clear that Paul always distinguishes between Jesus/lord/kurios from God/theos, and though the Hymn speaks of some sort of equality between the two it doesn't, to me anyway, seem imply an identity. The body of the 4th Gospel massively subordinates Jesus to the Father.Were there very early on multiple Christianities? The writings of Paul seem to possibly suggest a greater schism between himself and Peter and the Jersualem community than does Acts. Beyond that Paul himself seems aware of multiple Christianities.
CV75 Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Long before Constantine and the Councils, and long before even the Apostolic Fathers, Jesus appeared in the Western Hemisphere and I assume taught the very same Christianity that he taught to his 12 Apostles and established in this original Church. This was long before the Great Apostasy that later wracked the original Church in the East. Of all the things that were later lost in that Great Apostasy, what specifically did Jesus teach in the Americas that were preserved in the Book of Mormon, protected from the later Apostasy an ocean and decades away?Related to altersteve's point i post #64, I’m not sure we can identify specifically what was lost from the East and retained in the records of the West since whatever is original to the Book of Mormon may be just that (such as the identification of the lost sheep, which were not made known to His followers in Jerusalem and perhaps such things as the writings of Joseph of Egypt; perhaps the prophecies involving the restoration; the Three Nephites, etc.).But some things I’ve noted about the “fullness of the gospel” which Christ likely taught during His mortal ministry and that are in the Book of Mormon might include:The “doctrine of Christ” as quoted from His own mouth (which would resolve many disputes about the first principles and ordinances, enduring to the end, and role of proper priesthood authority);The sealed portion of the Book of Mormon and the promise that the faithful will receive it;The directly quoted expression of Jesus’ joy (3 Nephi 27:30);The role of America and the restoration through the Gentiles (2 Nephi, 3 Nephi);The role of the descendants (remnant) of Joseph in the last days;Such things as Jesus spake in 3 Nephi and 18:37; 17;16;The latter-day Seer spoken of in 2 Nephi 3:12, 24;The order of Judgment under Christ’s direction (1 Nephi 12:9);How people are received unto baptism (Moroni 6);Authority over the Sacrament (3 Nephi 18:5).
MMMillie Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Did these ancient Christians in the ancient Americas know of and practice baptism for the dead? Did they know about Temple marriage? Actually, did Jesus establish Temple Marriage as part of his original church in the East? If so, where might it have been performed and by whom?
Stormy Waters Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 When it comes to the doctrine of the trinity it seems people who read the Bible often come to different conclusions. As has been pointed out evangelicals, Jehovahs's Witnesses, and Mormons all interpret this doctrine in significantly different ways. If this is a fundamental doctrine, why didn't God make it clear and concise? Why leave us in this state of confusion?
Nominee Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 When it comes to the doctrine of the trinity it seems people who read the Bible often come to different conclusions. As has been pointed out evangelicals, Jehovahs's Witnesses, and Mormons all interpret this doctrine in significantly different ways. If this is a fundamental doctrine, why didn't God make it clear and concise? Why leave us in this state of confusion?He did not leave us. We have the prophets, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and modern day revelation directly from God. As an LDS, I do not feel that I or the world I live in has been left in confusion at all. The clear and concise truth is available to all, the question is whether or not it is accepted by all.
MMMillie Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 When it comes to the doctrine of the trinity it seems people who read the Bible often come to different conclusions. As has been pointed out evangelicals, Jehovahs's Witnesses, and Mormons all interpret this doctrine in significantly different ways. If this is a fundamental doctrine, why didn't God make it clear and concise? Why leave us in this state of confusion?There are, of course, those mistaken souls who believe that it's all man-made to begin with, or that man has created God in his own image more than the other way around. Or that the authors of the various books of the New Testament really had fundamentally different views and beliefs about Jesus, and about Christ, and about God.Myself, a lot of things often strike me as extremely curious about how God does His business. In the end, I think it mostly relates to testing and finding the most genuine, choice and elect sheep who will follow Him to the ends of Heaven and Earth in worthiness and faithfulness, with the innocence of children.
CV75 Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Did these ancient Christians in the ancient Americas know of and practice baptism for the dead? Did they know about Temple marriage? Actually, did Jesus establish Temple Marriage as part of his original church in the East? If so, where might it have been performed and by whom?I can't tell from what is written in the Book of Mormon; I've seen some scholars describe the temple motif in many of the Book of Mormon passages and also some temple-like activities. I would think that He would have established the same temple practices in both places (it has been suggested that when He and His angels ministered to the chidlren, He was administering a temple sealing rite).I understand that there are some scholarly studies of non-canonical religious texts cioncerning His introducing temple ceremonies (inlcuding marriage) to His followers in the East. Hopefully someone can pipe in with exact references as I don't follow it all that closely. Edited January 14, 2012 by CV75
3DOP Posted January 16, 2012 Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Romans 12:55 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.add: I should clarify that 3DOP's post asking why LDS (belonging to the one true church) should care what those of another faith say or do ~pained me. My answer is because as an LDS I am a Christian and therefore I care about all God's children, my brothers and sisters. I am concerned with the salvation of every living soul, not just my own.Hi Nominee,I think if I had been clearer, perhaps your pain could have been mitigated.To clarify, I want the typical confident anti-LDS/anti-Catholic Evangelical to be saved too. But according to my faith, such an one has little to add to a discussion of what church I should attend or what doctrines I should believe. I apologize if my cynical reference to "Bible Christianity Boy" was understood as not caring if American Evangelicals go to Hell. I meant that the Evangelical doesn't understand the book he has. The book he has is too small anyway. The church he attends is not the one true visible church by his own admission. If I had only his little bible and attended one of his many optional churches, I might have to care about what the Evangelical has to say. But I don't have his little Bible. Instead of one of his dozens or hundreds of churches, I trust that I am a member of the one, true, visible Church that Christ founded on the Apostles. That is in large part why he opposes my faith and yours. Neither can co-exist with his. Unlike hundreds of differing visible Evangelical churches that are all okay (according to them when they talk to us but who can't even go to church together), the Catholic Church won't admit to being one of many, or somewhat true. I care about his salvation, but Small Bible Evangelical with his thousands of somewhat true churches doesn't have anything to say to me.3DOP Edited January 16, 2012 by 3DOP
Nominee Posted January 16, 2012 Posted January 16, 2012 Hi Nominee,I think if I had been clearer, perhaps your pain could have been mitigated.To clarify, I want the typical confident anti-LDS/anti-Catholic Evangelical to be saved too. But according to my faith, such an one has little to add to a discussion of what church I should attend or what doctrines I should believe. I apologize if my cynical reference to "Bible Christianity Boy" was understood as not caring if American Evangelicals go to Hell. I meant that the Evangelical doesn't understand the book he has. The book he has is too small anyway. The church he attends is not the one true visible church by his own admission. If I had only his little bible and attended one of his many optional churches, I might have to care about what the Evangelical has to say. But I don't have his little Bible. Instead of one of his dozens or hundreds of churches, I trust that I am a member of the one, true, visible Church that Christ founded on the Apostles. That is in large part why he opposes my faith and yours. Neither can co-exist with his. Unlike hundreds of Evangelical churches that are all okay (according to them), the Catholic Church won't admit to being one of many, or somewhat true. I care about his salvation, but Small Bible Evangelical with his thousands of somewhat true churches doesn't have anything to say to me.3DOP Thank you for relieving some of my pain. I get what you mean.
Vance Posted January 16, 2012 Posted January 16, 2012 Hi Nominee,I think if I had been clearer, perhaps your pain could have been mitigated.To clarify, I want the typical confident anti-LDS/anti-Catholic Evangelical to be saved too. But according to my faith, such an one has little to add to a discussion of what church I should attend or what doctrines I should believe. I apologize if my cynical reference to "Bible Christianity Boy" was understood as not caring if American Evangelicals go to Hell. I meant that the Evangelical doesn't understand the book he has. The book he has is too small anyway. The church he attends is not the one true visible church by his own admission. If I had only his little bible and attended one of his many optional churches, I might have to care about what the Evangelical has to say. But I don't have his little Bible. Instead of one of his dozens or hundreds of churches, I trust that I am a member of the one, true, visible Church that Christ founded on the Apostles. That is in large part why he opposes my faith and yours. Neither can co-exist with his. Unlike hundreds of differing visible Evangelical churches that are all okay (according to them when they talk to us but who can't even go to church together), the Catholic Church won't admit to being one of many, or somewhat true. I care about his salvation, but Small Bible Evangelical with his thousands of somewhat true churches doesn't have anything to say to me.3DOPAmen!
Vance Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 It is so very convienient that Bowman ignores my posts. Because he is totally incapable of addressing this issue.Bowman is trying to shift the argument away from the Bible because he is losing.The Bible is very clear that the "one God" is "the Father" and that "the Father" isn't Jesus Christ.So, if Jesus is divine then there MUST BE more than one divine being/person/entity.John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Ah, what did Jesus know about this topic compared to the "Biblical Christians"?The Bible separates, many times the Lord Jesus Christ FROM that "one" God.So, now what?Not exactly. It is that you go beyond the Bible to get your definition of what exactly "one God" means.Ok, so what is the "more plausible" interpretation of these verses?Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: • • • 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:1 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.2 Cor. 1: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;Col. 1: 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,1 Thes. 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you. • • • 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.2 Thes. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, aunto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.Rom. 1: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.Rom. 15: 6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.Gal. 1: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,Eph. 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.Philip. 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.Philip. 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.2 Thes. 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,1 Tim. 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.2 Tim. 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.Philem. 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.1 Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,2 Jn. 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.These verses show, without doubt, that the concept of God as held by Bowman is TOTALLY WITHOUT Biblical basis. 1
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