Were The Brass Plates In Egyptian?

[Bill Hamblin]

Mosiah 1:2-4 reads as follows:

2 And it came to pass that he had three sons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning theprophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers [on the Plates of Nephi, etc.], which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord.

3 And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, ….

4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptianstherefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

As generally interpreted, this verse is understood to imply that the Brass Plates were written in the “language of the Egyptians.” However, there are two sets of records mentioned in this passage, the Book of Mormon plates mentioned in 1:2, and the “Plates of Brass” mentioned in 1:3. The question becomes, what is the antecedent of “these plates” in 1:4a? Are they the Book of Mormon Plates? Or are they the Plates of Brass?

I think it is possible to read this passage with the antecedent of “these plates” being not the Plates of Brass, but the Plates of the Book of Mormon from 1:2. In that case, the Book of Mormon is written in Hebrew language and reformed Egyptian script, and thus it is necessary to know “the language of the Egyptians” in order to read them. If this is correct, then the language of the Brass Plates is not described in this passage, and would presumably be Hebrew.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Bill Hamblin

[altersteve]

This makes sense to me, as I don't understand why the brass plates would be written in Egyptian.

[Nominee]

I don't know... the fact that 1:3 comes after 1:2 combined with Nephi's show of decent and I think usually straight forward sentence construction causes the antecedent of "these plates" to be in reference to the plates of brass. It could go the other way as you have described but I have to admit that it would not be my conclusion. Still, my assessment is based solely on syntax.

[Sevenbak]

This makes sense to me, as I don't understand why the brass plates would be written in Egyptian.

I think it makes perfect sense that the Brass Plates were written in Egyptian. They are the record of the tribe of Joseph, started by Joseph, likely when he was the high muckety muck to Pharaoh.

I hope there's another copy of them somewhere hidden in the sand in the middle east. Law of witnesses and all that... I always thought it would be really cool for some Arab to find a scroll of Zenos's olive tree allegory.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Sevenbak

[Calm]

While possible, it seems rather strange to talk about whether or not Lehi could read the plates that he himself and Nephi wrote (Lehi being the "he having been taught in....), assuming here that Jacob didn't start writing on them until after Lehi had died. It's understandable that if he and Nephi taught a lot of prophecies themselves that they might have a difficult time keeping track of them and therefore Lehi would consult the plates to refresh his memory but why would anyone bother making a point of saying the man could read what he himself had written?

I can't remember if the small plates indicate that there was much more of Lehi's teachings that did not get put on them. Since the small plates were dedicated to the religious side of Nephite life, I would assume that most if not all of his teachings were transferred onto them and if so, we could get a fair idea of how difficult it would be for Lehi to keep track of his own prophecies over the years.

I supposed one could assume that the prophecies and commandments from the brass plates had been transferred to the plates of Nephi for Lehi to use as a memory aid, but why since he could read the brass plates directly, especially if they were in Hebrew?

Also when one gets down to verse 6, it states:

6 O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true, and also that these records are ^atrue. And behold, also the plates of Nephi,

It would seem that Benjamin has been talking about one set of plates for verse 4 and 5 in that the overall theme appears to me to focus on one set of plates and the effect of having them to teach from on them as opposed the Lamanites. And verse six indicates that set of plates is the brass one due to its shift to the Plates of Nephi in the second sentence.

Edited January 12, 2012 by calmoriah

[J Green]

Nice catch.

Another option: Could the "all these things" make both the Nephite plates and the brass plates the antecedents for "these plates"?

Edited January 12, 2012 by J Green

[Calm]

Another option: Could the "all these things" make both the Nephite plates and the brass plates the antecedents for "these plates"?

I added a comment about verse 6. If the "all these things" in verse 4 are the same as "these things" in verse 5 and "these records" in verse 6, it would seem that it is just the brass plates being discussed....at least to me.

[Nominee]

The semi-colon behind "these plates" attaches it to "these engravings" more than a period would. The "for" after the semi-colon and the "therefore" further on ties both "these plates" and "these engravings" directly to the "language of the Egyptians." Okay, and "all these things" is followed by a comma that makes one continuous sentence including "these plates." SO ~ Whether "all these things" is referring to one or both sets of plates, the plates being discussed are in the Egyptian language. IMO, syntax says brass plates only. But its fun to wonder and try to discern!

[Calm]

The semi-colon behind "these plates" attaches it to "these engravings" more than a period would. The "for" after the semi-colon and the "therefore" further on ties both "these plates" and "these engravings" directly to the "language of the Egyptians." Okay, and "all these things" is followed by a comma that makes one continuous sentence including "these plates." SO ~ Whether "all these things" is referring to one or both sets of plates, the plates being discussed are in the Egyptian language. IMO, syntax says brass plates only. But its fun to wonder and try to discern!

But since the punctuation did not come in the original and was not put in by Joseph or even Oliver (I think it was the printer, Grandin), I don't think it should be given much weight in determining what goes with what.

*****Sometimes it's fun to remove the punctuation and see if one can come up with a different setup that still makes sense.

Edited January 12, 2012 by calmoriah

[Bill Hamblin]

The phrase "these plates" is often used in the BOM to refer to the plates the author is actually writing on, which might support my reading.

Historically speaking, if the Brass Plates contained an early version of the Old Testament, which was certainly in Hebrew, then it is possible that the Brass Plates were in Hebrew. From the historical perspective, it makes more sense for the Brass Plates to have been in Hebrew, which would indicate that "these plates" in Egyptian would be the BOM plates.

Modfied to help Alpha-Betha.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Bill Hamblin

[Nominee]

It is 1:3 in its entirety that pulls me away from your reading.

"And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God. 4)For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings,..."

Edited January 12, 2012 by Nominee

[cdowis]

This makes sense to me, as I don't understand why the brass plates would be written in Egyptian.

Give it some thought==

This is the record of Joseph, and contains the writings of Moses.... this is the part of the plates written in Egyptian. and contained the history of Joseph.

The BOM also tells us that they were written in Hebrew, and that is why their language was not corrupted like the Mulekites.

[aleph]

As most biblical scholars believe that the first written versions of the Torah appeared during the Babylonian exile, speculating on the nature of a pre-exile version written in brass is very enlightening.

Can we next start a thread on whether Adam and Eve had belly buttons?

[LeSellers]

Can we next start a thread on whether Adam and Eve had belly buttons?

You could, if you went to Social Hall, and entered a few posts in "A Three Word Story". You only need 2 or 3 more to qualify to start a new topic.

However, I strongly petition you to make your contributions to that topic connect, in some way, even trivially, to the existing, ongoing sentence. Many seem merely to post three words without any logical tie to what's "going on" in the story.

Meanwhile, in Cleveland, ...

Lehi

[LeSellers]

As most biblical scholars believe that the first written versions of the Torah appeared during the Babylonian exile, speculating on the nature of a pre-exile version written in brass is very enlightening.

We Saints know that Adam could (and did) write, and keep records. We know that Moses actually did write something like the Torah (with, perhaps, the exception of Deuteronomy).

The existence of the Brass Plates fits perfectly within what we know to be true. It's attested and re-attested in our scriptures, independent of the Bible itself.

Lehi

[aleph]

Agreed,

But all we know is that Nephi made the record following: language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

Which I take to mean he was literate in Egyptian.

​Speculating as to whether the brass plates were in Egyptian or Hebrew when there is very little in the BOM to indicate which, and as there are no analogs with which we can compare. Well it is just an exercise in speculation.

As long as we are going to pursue this type of academic naval gazing I am only suggesting we truly focus on navels.

[Bill Hamblin]

Agreed,

But all we know is that Nephi made the record following: language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

Which I take to mean he was literate in Egyptian.

​Speculating as to whether the brass plates were in Egyptian or Hebrew when there is very little in the BOM to indicate which, and as there are no analogs with which we can compare. Well it is just an exercise in speculation.

As long as we are going to pursue this type of academic naval gazing I am only suggesting we truly focus on navels.

You know what? I don't participate in 99% of the discussions here. If you're not interested in this topic, why don't you just ignore it?

[aleph]

No, no, sorry. This thread intrigues me. I will just shut up now and quietly follow.

I am very interested in seeing the conclusions.

[Bill Hamblin]

It is 1:3 in its entirety that pulls me away from your reading.

"And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God. 4)For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings,..."

That's a good point.

An interesting possibility is that the most archaic Joseph (of Egypt) material was in Egyptian, but most of the rest in Hebrew. This would then require knowing Egyptian to read the all plates, even if you could read most of them knowing only Hebrew.

[aleph]

Historically speaking, if the Brass Plates contained an early version of the Old Testament, which was certainly in Hebrew. From the historical perspective, it makes more sense for the Brass Plates to have been in Hebrew, which would indicate that "these plates" in Egyptian would be the BOM plates.

Ok, I am not being quiet. I apologize in advance.

Bill the above paragraph confuses me. The use of the "if" clause, followed by "which" and then the "certainly in Hebrew". Could you clarify that statement as I am not following it.

Also, could you please supply a reference that would support the assertion that a per-exile version of the Torah written upon "these plates" being the plates of brass, would certainly be in Hebrew.

I am trying to follow, but I must be a little dense.

[Bill Hamblin]

Ok, I am not being quiet. I apologize in advance.

Bill the above paragraph confuses me. The use of the "if" clause, followed by "which" and then the "certainly in Hebrew". Could you clarify that statement as I am not following it.

Also, could you please supply a reference that would support the assertion that a per-exile version of the Torah written upon "these plates" being the plates of brass, would certainly be in Hebrew.

I am trying to follow, but I must be a little dense.

No. You're clearly an insincere troll. Sorry.

[aleph]

No, I am sincerely trying to parse that statement and you are trying to misrepresent my position.

I am just asking for some clarification.

Is the phrase supposed to be:

Historically speaking, if the Brass Plates contained an early version of the Old Testament, then it was certainly in Hebrew. From the historical perspective, it makes more sense for the Brass Plates to have been in Hebrew, which would indicate that "these plates" in Egyptian would be the BOM plates.

Or perhaps:

Historically speaking, if the Brass Plates contained an early version of the Old Testament, which was certainly in Hebrew, from the historical perspective, it makes more sense for the Brass Plates to have been in Hebrew, which would indicate that "these plates" in Egyptian would be the BOM plates.

As it stands I am not quite parsing it and am merely seeking clarification. I understand the use of the word "which" is a bit ambiguous in English and so I am just trying to understand.

The which following the if implies certainty of "certainly in Hebrew" and so could you please supply some supporting material and or clarification.

Thank you.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No. You're clearly an insincere troll. Sorry.

Trolololol

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No, I am sincerely trying to parse that statement and you are trying to misrepresent my position.

It is transparently obvious what you are doing.

[Bill Hamblin]

Trolololol

Excellent singing voice! But that face!