Were The Brass Plates In Egyptian?

[aleph]

In a discussion about; whether a pre-exile version of the Torah (for which there is no analog), that is written upon plates of brass (for which there is no Hebrew/Jewish analog), when all we have is a couple of statements from the BOM that describe what we know of the plates and or "teachings" of Nehpi and his descendants is: the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians, you are all going to call me a troll when I can't parse a muddled statement and call for a reference when some one says "certainly in Hebrew" presupposing the argument of the topic of the discussion.

Wow.

Is name calling allowed behavior on this board? And is that how you always react when someone actually approaches these topics with a modicum of rigour?

I mean: if we are actually going to seriously discuss this topic, then let's discuss it seriously.

[aleph]

So are we going to elevate this discussion past a bunch of group backslapping mental --removed by me-- "self abuse", by someone actually providing me with a reason that I should accept the certainty of the plates of brass being written in Hebrew, other than on Bill's say so?

aleph has left the building.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Minos

[Que]

For those of us that are not up to speed on all the issues, can someone clarify a few points?

What language do we guess Joseph would have used pre-slavery? (some kind of Sumerian/Akkadian something-or-other?)

Post slavery? - Add the Egyption of that time to his repetiore?

Would Moses some 400 years later have used the same language(s)? How about the rest of the Hebrews in Goshen? The Midianites?

Is there consensus on when "Hebrew" came to be?

What other pertinent writings do we have consensus as existing pre-exile? If not the Torah, at least the tablets of Moses... they were written and then saved - what language do we assume/surmise they were written in?

Thanks for your indulgence.

Q

ps - they got them out of the navel reserve...

[aleph]

Given the premise that Nephi could read and write Egyptian, can the argument be made that he could read and write Hebrew?

[LeSellers]

Given the premise that Nephi could read and write Egyptian, can the argument be made that he could read and write Hebrew?

What would stop him?

I read and write English, French, Italian, and Greek. I have little or no incentive to read or write any of them except English. Nephi, on the other hand, had a great need to read both Hebrew (his native tongue—the Jews didn't pick up Aramaic until a century later), and Egyptian due to his father's business (this is an assumption, but there is much to suggest it), a business he might inherit at some point, or compete with were Laman the heir.

Lehi

Edited January 13, 2012 by LeSellers

[Cushan Rishathaim]

Mosiah 1:2-4 reads as follows:

As generally interpreted, this verse is understood to imply that the Brass Plates were written in the “language of the Egyptians.” However, there are two sets of records mentioned in this passage, the Book of Mormon plates mentioned in 1:2, and the “Plates of Brass” mentioned in 1:3. The question becomes, what is the antecedent of “these plates” in 1:4a? Are they the Book of Mormon Plates? Or are they the Plates of Brass?

I think it is possible to read this passage with the antecedent of “these plates” being not the Plates of Brass, but the Plates of the Book of Mormon from 1:2. In that case, the Book of Mormon is written in Hebrew language and reformed Egyptian script, and thus it is necessary to know “the language of the Egyptians” in order to read them. If this is correct, then the language of the Brass Plates is not described in this passage, and would presumably be Hebrew.

For historical reasons, I like this proposal. However, it seems to me that the phrase "these engravings" in verse 4 points specifically to the Brass Plates:

If Lehi had not "been taught in the language of the Egyptians," then he could not have "read these engravings."

It seems from my perspective that the only "engravings" that Lehi would have had access to (other than his own writings) would have been the Brass Plates. Hence, the phrase "these engravings" that Lehi read via his knowledge of the "language of the Egyptians" appears to refer to the Brass Plates, a fact which suggests that the Brass Plates were written with an Egyptian script.

Again, I prefer Dr. Hamblin's reading from a historical perspective, so if there is a way to make sense of the above observation in another way, I would be happy to see it.

[Cushan Rishathaim]

It's interesting that Mosiah 1:2 states that "the prophecies" had been "spoken by the mouths of their fathers." In terms of the Old Testament, these prophecies spoken by the Nephite fathers were clearly spoken in Hebrew. Moreover, I believe the use of "mouth" in this passage proves intriguing.

From an English perspective, one would expect the text to simply read "the prophecies spoken by their fathers" (no need to add the "mouth" imagery). This is clearly a Hebraism reflective of the use of "mouth" imagery in the Hebrew Bible.

Each of the Major Prophets contains the symbolic use of the mouth as an allusion to the prophetic call (Isaiah 6:7; Jeremiah 1:9; Ezekiel 3:1-3). The motif reflects the fact that prophets were the "mouth" of God: "Thou [Jeremiah] shalt be as my [God's] mouth" (Jer. 15:19).

Thus, the allusion to "prophecies" spoken "by the mouths of their fathers" in this Book of Mormon passage, not only points to Hebrew prophecies (the spoken language of those prophets), but also provides an impressive link with biblical conceptions.

[betha]

What would stop him?

I read and write English, French, Italian, and Greek. I have incentive to read or write any of them except English. Nephi, on the other hand, had a great need to read both Hebrew (his native tongue—the Jews didn't pick up Aramaic until a century later), and Egyptian due to his father's business (this is an assumption, but there is much to suggest it), a business he might inherit at some point, or compete with were Laman the heir.

Lehi

Historically speaking, if the Brass Plates contained an early version of the Old Testament, which was certainly in Hebrew. From the historical perspective, it makes more sense for the Brass Plates to have been in Hebrew, which would indicate that "these plates" in Egyptian would be the BOM plates.

In accordance with what has been demonstrated as passing logic, reason and scholarship on this thread,

I propose with absolute absolute certainty:

The language on the plates of brass was ancient Cherokee.

Nephi used to fly around Jerusalem on a pink unicorn.

What would stop him?

[Bill Hamblin]

In accordance with what has been demonstrated as passing logic, reason and scholarship on this thread,

I propose with absolute absolute certainty:

The language on the plates of brass was ancient Cherokee.

Nephi used to fly around Jerusalem on a pink unicorn.

What would stop him?

Nincompoopery is not permitted on this thread.

[betha]

As any conclusion or even discussion of what language was on the brass plates can only be based on a couple of indirect references, generating nothing but a lot of conjecture.... this thread is nothing but an exercise in Nincompoopery

[Bill Hamblin]

As any conclusion or even discussion of what language was on the brass plates can only be based on a couple of indirect references, generating nothing but a lot of conjecture.... this thread is nothing but an exercise in Nincompoopery

Thankful for your helpful contribution.

Mods, could you show Betha to the door? Thanks

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As any conclusion or even discussion of what language was on the brass plates can only be based on a couple of indirect references, generating nothing but a lot of conjecture.... this thread is nothing but an exercise in Nincompoopery

You know, sock puppets are not allowed.

[betha]

Seeing as I understand the nature of the internet...... they can ban me all day. I can always come back at my discretion.

[Nominee]

Seeing as I understand the nature of the internet...... they can ban me all day. I can always come back at my discretion.

Why?

[altersteve]

Seeing as I understand the nature of the internet...... they can ban me all day. I can always come back at my discretion.

I'm pretty sure they're able to ban your IP address too.

[betha]

Then I just get a proxy.

[betha]

I do cyber security for a living.... I am pretty sure short of blocking the internet, or eliminating all new hotmail accounts, or all new accounts, I can create a new account at my discretion.

[Bill Hamblin]

I do cyber security for a living.... I am pretty sure short of blocking the internet, or eliminating all new hotmail accounts, or all new accounts, I can create a new account at my discretion.

So charming! Cyber-stalking! I suspect it requires a certain degree of neurosis to do this, doesn't it? But why would anyone want to?

[betha]

Who is stalking? I am just saying banning me, or IP blocking me is ineffective. I have no neurosis, but having certainity about the language on a set of plates you've never seen, and to which there are 2-3 indirect references sounds like psychosis to me.

[Nominee]

Who is stalking? I am just saying banning me, or IP blocking me is ineffective. I have no neurosis, but having certainity about the language on a set of plates you've never seen, and to which there are 2-3 indirect references sounds like psychosis to me.

Why are you here? In this thread?

[Cobalt-70]

Mosiah 1:2-4 reads as follows:

...

As generally interpreted, this verse is understood to imply that the Brass Plates were written in the “language of the Egyptians.” However, there are two sets of records mentioned in this passage, the Book of Mormon plates mentioned in 1:2, and the “Plates of Brass” mentioned in 1:3. The question becomes, what is the antecedent of “these plates” in 1:4a? Are they the Book of Mormon Plates? Or are they the Plates of Brass?

I think it is possible to read this passage with the antecedent of “these plates” being not the Plates of Brass, but the Plates of the Book of Mormon from 1:2. In that case, the Book of Mormon is written in Hebrew language and reformed Egyptian script, and thus it is necessary to know “the language of the Egyptians” in order to read them. If this is correct, then the language of the Brass Plates is not described in this passage, and would presumably be Hebrew.

I see that Cushan Rishathaim beat me to this observation, but it's clear to me that the passage is saying that the Brass Plates were in Egyptian. It says "he [Lehi] having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings and teach them to his children...." The only engravings that Lehi would have read are the Brass Plates, given that the Plates of Nephi didn't exist yet.

[betha]

I want to see the conclusions drawn from this rousing discussion.

I mean, if you are going to claim with certainty the language of the brass plates, well I am interested in seeing you support that assertion.

[Nominee]

I want to see the conclusions drawn from this rousing discussion.

I mean, if you are going to claim with certainty the language of the brass plates, well I am interested in seeing you support that assertion.

Oh.

[Bill Hamblin]

I see that Cushan Rishathaim beat me to this observation, but it's clear to me that the passage is saying that the Brass Plates were in Egyptian. It says "he [Lehi] having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings and teach them to his children...." The only engravings that Lehi would have read are the Brass Plates, given that the Plates of Nephi didn't exist yet.

The problem is there are two sets of plates mentioned. In 1:2 it talks about the prophesies of the fathers = the (Lost) book of Lehi, books of Nephi, etc. The second set of plates are the "brass plates" in 1:3. The question is, are the plates that you need to know Egyptian to read as described in 1:4 the Nephite plates of 1:2 or the brass plates of 1:3. Does the "these plates" in 1:4a refer to the Nephite plates of 1:2 or the brass plates of 1:3. Are the things Lehi could not have remembered in 1:4 his revelations (from the Lost book of Lehi), or the materials on the brass plates (or both).

Furthermore, even if the "these plates" of 1:4 refer to the brass plates, it is possible that some of the writings on the brass plates (the Joseph of Egypt material) were in Egyptian and the rest in Hebrew. Thus, needing to know Egyptian to read the brass plates does not necessarily mean all the brass plates are in Egyptian. If only some of them are, you would still need to know Egyptian to read them.

[Bill Hamblin]

I want to see the conclusions drawn from this rousing discussion.

I mean, if you are going to claim with certainty the language of the brass plates, well I am interested in seeing you support that assertion.

Quit being an obnoxious dim-wit. The thread is a question: "Were the Brass Plates in Egyptian." No one is claiming to know "with certainty." We are exploring the possibilities. We are examining the implications of a careful reading of the text. That's all.