Bom Geo-Why Care?

[Gervin]

If one studies the Book of Mormon lomg enough they will have the natural curiosity of wanting to know about the geography of the said events.

Actually, a cursory reading can bring about a natural curiosity about the geography described in the Book. The Book's introduction calls it, in part, a history. It's natural to want to know if the history described is fictional or real.

I myself have set out on that conquest many a time only to realize that we can theorize all we want and it still doesn't add to our evidence for the book being true.

An investigation of the Book's historical claims does not necessarily require an investigation of the religious claims.

If we cannot see that truth and are looking for physical evidence to bolster our belief in it's validity then we miss the point of the book itself that it was written for us so that we can know what type of men we ought to be in our hearts.

Physical evidence helps to provide context and, perhaps, to some degree indicate that the described history of places and cultures are not fictional. I see no reason to tie it to belief.

God already has revealed to us at least in part the actual location of the Hill Cumorah. In due time he may teach us the location of other places also.

Why would God have a vested interest in teaching about locations? Also, what is the actual location of the Hill C?

[Palerider]

I would say that geographic, archaeological, and historic knowledge adds immeasurably to our understanding of the Bible. It provides place context, adds to cultural insights, and verifies scriptures. When Jesus, in Capernaum, refers to a millstone around someone's neck it's helpful to know that this city was the center of basalt production of millstones. The discovery of Hezekiah's Tunnel verified 2 Kings 20:20. The discovery of the Madaba Map, likewise, verifies Biblical sites.

The Book of Mormon claims that it is, in part, a history. If it describes a true history then finding the location of the events, cities, and cultures in the Book could very well verify and compliment this history.

Excellent!

[Palerider]

Actually, a cursory reading can bring about a natural curiosity about the geography described in the Book. The Book's introduction calls it, in part, a history. It's natural to want to know if the history described is fictional or real.

An investigation of the Book's historical claims does not necessarily require an investigation of the religious claims.

Physical evidence helps to provide context and, perhaps, to some degree indicate that the described history of places and cultures are not fictional. I see no reason to tie it to belief.

Why would God have a vested interest in teaching about locations? Also, what is the actual location of the Hill C?

Saved me a bunch of typing here. Excellent response.

[Rob Osborn]

Actually, a cursory reading can bring about a natural curiosity about the geography described in the Book. The Book's introduction calls it, in part, a history. It's natural to want to know if the history described is fictional or real.

An investigation of the Book's historical claims does not necessarily require an investigation of the religious claims.

Physical evidence helps to provide context and, perhaps, to some degree indicate that the described history of places and cultures are not fictional. I see no reason to tie it to belief.

As LDS though, we need the testimony of the words- the teachings of Christ to know if it is true. Moroni doesn't challenge us to ask where the events took place, that was not his intent for us to find the truth. The truth he wanted us to find- what he challenges us with, is if the teachings of Christ as found within the context of the BoM are just and true, not where Zarahemla was. I agree that adding physical evidence helps to provide context but we should not rest the case of whether or not the book is true or false based upon whether or not we can find immediate yet selfishly gratifying evidence. We must first accept it on faith. In due time all truth will be revealed to those who diligently seek Christ.

Of the many times I have searched for evidences I have found myself always coming back to the same conclusions- I may or maynot have a valid theory or idea about the geography but that in no way should determine if the teachings of the book are true or false. It is far too easy to be wrong in great magnitudes and not even realize it and if one were to stake exact claims as does the limited geographic modelists do, they thus limit their scope and even perhaps limit the scope of real truth of the BoM and where it rests- not in giving an exact geographic profile, but rather in giving the reader the knowledge of Christ.

Why would God have a vested interest in teaching about locations?

Also, what is the actual location of the Hill C?

God has a vested interest in teaching his gospel and to the convincing of them who truly search him of his ways and doctrine. It's all line upon line. The hill Cumorah is in upstate New York according to the revealed truth.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[LeSellers]

The hill Cumorah is in upstate New York according to the revealed truth.

I have never seen such "revealed truth". In fact, I have seen quite a bit of controversy on the matter, including General Authorities. Even Joseph Smith (who did not call the hill near his Palmyra home "Cumorah" until after Oliver gave it that title, if even then) did not make any categorical statements as to where the Book of Mormon events and specifically the final battles among the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

"Glad tidings from Cumorah" is a phrase fraught with ambiguity. He specifically said that Lehi landed in Peru (a region much larger in the XVII & XIX than the country with that name today. He often referred to news from Central and Mesoamerica as substantiating the Book of Mormon. We have a map from Brigham showing the travels of Moroni, and they end in present-day New York, but begin in southern Mexico (as I recall, I don't have the map in front of me), and pass through Manti, Utah, where that last Nephite dedicated a Temple site (only one of several, if I remember correctly).

The statement that the location of Cumorah is resolved by revelation seems a stretch, at best, and I do not accept it on its face.

Lehi

[Calm]

We have a map from Brigham showing the travels of Moroni, and they end in present-day New York, but begin in southern Mexico (as I recall, I don't have the map in front of me), and pass through Manti, Utah, where that last Nephite dedicated a Temple site (only one of several, if I remember correctly).

This one?: http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/18-moroni-last-nephite-prophets

[Rob Osborn]

I have never seen such "revealed truth". In fact, I have seen quite a bit of controversy on the matter, including General Authorities. Even Joseph Smith (who did not call the hill near his Palmyra home "Cumorah" until after Oliver gave it that title, if even then) did not make any categorical statements as to where the Book of Mormon events and specifically the final battles among the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

"Glad tidings from Cumorah" is a phrase fraught with ambiguity. He specifically said that Lehi landed in Peru (a region much larger in the XVII & XIX than the country with that name today. He often referred to news from Central and Mesoamerica as substantiating the Book of Mormon. We have a map from Brigham showing the travels of Moroni, and they end in present-day New York, but begin in southern Mexico (as I recall, I don't have the map in front of me), and pass through Manti, Utah, where that last Nephite dedicated a Temple site (only one of several, if I remember correctly).

The statement that the location of Cumorah is resolved by revelation seems a stretch, at best, and I do not accept it on its face.

Lehi

The church seems to believe that the hill Cumorah is in upstate New York-

http://lds.org/scrip...hoto-2?lang=eng

http://lds.org/scriptures/history-maps/map-2?lang=eng

Perhaps I am mistaken?

Edited January 3, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[LeSellers]

The church seems to believe that the hill Cumorah is in upstate New York-

http://lds.org/scrip...hoto-2?lang=eng

http://lds.org/scrip.../map-2?lang=eng

Perhaps I am mistaken?

Indeed, you are.

Neither of these identifies the New York Hill Cumorah with the final battlefields of the Jaredites or Nephites/Lamanites. They use a modern name for the hill where Moroni hid the plates and where he showed them to Joseph.

The issue is that there are (at least) two "Hills Cumorah", just as there are (at least) two places called "Paris", and (at least) two called "Athens", and (at least) two called "Rome". People didn't confuse Troy, Ohio, with Troy of Ilium (or is it the other way 'round?) before Schliemann located it, but it seems many have conflated the Hill Cumorah in New York with the hill of the same name in ????.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

This one?

The very one.

Thank you,

Lehi

[blueadept]

What does knowing where the Bible took place add to understanding it? It would be of inestimable value if we could have that additional knowledge of the BOM. That became clear to me when Brant used Mesoamerican cultures to explain some BOM events. If nothing else, trying to add some geography provides mental images that make it easier to remember things. The problem is when people create unprovable theories and turn it into a hobbyhorse....or as we are seeing now, a sole source of income that relies on maintaining that particular construction, right or wrong. That also goes for any tour that is showing people where the BOM happened. So I think we should welcome every attempt to use the BOM to relate to a geography as long it is considered to be just a theory that can be discarded or changed at any time.

It is wise for us to thus keep an open mind and realize that all possiblities are open but that we shouldn't rest our entire testimony on someones pet theory of the which we have seen shattered on many occasion. In due time the Lord will teach us the truth regarding the actual physical location of the evnts in the BoM. God already has revealed to us at least in part the actual location of the Hill Cumorah. In due time he may teach us the location of other places also.

While the BoM is a nice theory for me, I believe it's still wise to keep an open mind about the possibilities of its truthfulness. So BoM geography provides that for me.

[Rob Osborn]

Indeed, you are.

Neither of these identifies the New York Hill Cumorah with the final battlefields of the Jaredites or Nephites/Lamanites. They use a modern name for the hill where Moroni hid the plates and where he showed them to Joseph.

The issue is that there are (at least) two "Hills Cumorah", just as there are (at least) two places called "Paris", and (at least) two called "Athens", and (at least) two called "Rome". People didn't confuse Troy, Ohio, with Troy of Ilium (or is it the other way 'round?) before Schliemann located it, but it seems many have conflated the Hill Cumorah in New York with the hill of the same name in ????.

Lehi

Pet theories can lead many a man to question their tetimony. As far as the church is concerned, there is only one hill Cumorah- that which is known in upstate New York. Regardless of what some believe, the church is of the official knowledge that the same hill Cumorah in which Moroni buried up the plates is the same hill cumorah that Joseph was led to in finding the plates. Your opinion that there must be at least 2 separate hill Cumorahs is unoffiocial and definatly a position not held by the church.

[Rob Osborn]

While the BoM is a nice theory for me, I believe it's still wise to keep an open mind about the possibilities of its truthfulness. So BoM geography provides that for me.

The truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is found through taking upon oneself the challenge of Moroni in actually reading the book, pondering it in ones heart and praying for a confirmation of that truth. If one cannot find the book to be true in this way, he shall never find the truthfulness of the book in any other manner. The truthfulness of the book is in the teachings of Jesus Christ, not in whether or not archaeologists find physical evidence of the which is still prone to a myriad of opinion and debate.

[LeSellers]

As far as the church is concerned, there is only one hill Cumorah- that which is known in upstate New York. Regardless of what some believe, the church is of the official knowledge that the same hill Cumorah in which Moroni buried up the plates is the same hill cumorah that Joseph was led to in finding the plates.

While the Moroni buried the plates in the same hill where he told Joseph to dig them up, that does not have any bearing on where the Mormon lost his final battle with the Lamanites, nor where Shiz died at the hands of Coriantumr. Moroni spent two decades fleeing the Lamanites. He spent (one would think) a good deal of that time translating and redacting the book of Ether, as well as writing in his father's book, as well as his own. He had to mine ore to make additional plates, found, and enscribe them, too To assume he spent that time, in fear for his life, in the same place his enemies were searching for him is incredible. We know, as illustrated here, that Moroni wandered considerably during that time. "One Cumorah" is nonsensical.

Lehi

[Rob Osborn]

While the Moroni buried the plates in the same hill where he told Joseph to dig them up, that does not have any bearing on where the Mormon lost his final battle with the Lamanites, nor where Shiz died at the hands of Coriantumr. Moroni spent two decades fleeing the Lamanites. He spent (one would think) a good deal of that time translating and redacting the book of Ether, as well as writing in his father's book, as well as his own. He had to mine ore to make additional plates, found, and enscribe them, too To assume he spent that time, in fear for his life, in the same place his enemies were searching for him is incredible. We know, as illustrated here, that Moroni wandered considerably during that time. "One Cumorah" is nonsensical.

Lehi

I have never read of any theory of why two cumorah's would make sense over one Cumorah. Every theory out there has to go in opposite directions of where the church stands officially. The church has never even alluded to there being more than one Cumorah. The only ones who do so are those of unofficial status. From my own research into the matter- even my own theories, I have come to find that until the hill in upstate New York can be ruled out, it very well is or could be the very hill Cumorah as mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Indeed, it fits well into the wording of the BoM and is only discounted because of the nearsightedness theories of mere men. Most of these theories hinge off of how far indians can travel and migrate, especially when fleeing for their lives. And yet, we know that the American Indian in more modern times (Joseph Smith's day and before) traveled at times thousands of miles for refuge or in fleeing for their pursued lives. Many who disbelieve the New York Cumorah as being the final battle place of the BoM peoples do so in complete disregards for the actual historical value of th eartifacts found in said area when the white man first arrived and started documenting the facts. What were those facts? The facts that led some to believe that the areas around the finger lakes in Upstate New York was the final battle place of two great civilizations- where they destroyed each other. The facst are that in those days it was entirely common to unearth the myriads of bones of men and spear-points of a warring but now vanished society, of the which the modern indian had no recollection or knowledge of these races who lived so war-like. The ruins of ancient earthen forts and make-shift burials in and around those long aged fortifications points to the fact that at some time in history, great and destructive battles were fought up the Ohio river valley and into New York where, as it appears, the civilzations that were came into total destruction. Ancient Mining operations around the great lakes regions are well known. Artifacts of these mines are abundant, there is no mistake, whoever did live here and worked the region was a vast society spanning thousands of miles incorporating many complex trade routes spanning into Central America.

The evidence has been documented, it has been written for those willing to seek out that truth and what we can see and know is that if some think there is a lack of evidence for civilizations battling it out in this area to the end, then they are gravely mistaken.

Why are so many in doubt that this is the same hill? Because they have not thought about the entire aspect of the civilization capabilities of the Nephites and Lamanites. They tend to think of them as some small group incapable of traveling more than 4oo miles, even if it meant that the entire nation would have to flee to another region to escape wrath. Instead, this group believes it was only possible to live in a small condensed area where even 100 miles in any one direction would go undiscovered for hundreds of years.

Of course, we know that all that is just the mere thinking of man and it just shows how foolishly he can be led to believe in the foolish thinking of man.

The testimonies remain, and as it stands, officially, there is only one hill Cumorah, one place where Mormon deposited the enitre Nephite records and one place where Moroni delivered up the records. That place- the hill in upstate New York.

[blueadept]

The truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is found through taking upon oneself the challenge of Moroni in actually reading the book, pondering it in ones heart and praying for a confirmation of that truth. If one cannot find the book to be true in this way, he shall never find the truthfulness of the book in any other manner. The truthfulness of the book is in the teachings of Jesus Christ, not in whether or not archaeologists find physical evidence of the which is still prone to a myriad of opinion and debate.

I took the challenge and didn't have it confirmed for me. That said, it didn't seem reasonable to take your 'all or nothing' stance with my LDS wife on this and it seems better to be open to the possibilities.