The Epistle Of Jude And Endowment Connections

[wenglund]

So awash was Palmyra and Kirtland with news of Free Masonry that Joseph mentioned it zero times in his Hhistory of the Church prior to 1842.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Mike Reed]

So awash was Palmyra and Kirtland with news of Free Masonry that Joseph mentioned it zero times in his Hhistory of the Church prior to 1842.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If Joseph Smith doesn't mention things explicitly, then we can conclude that those things didn't have a significant presence... gotcha. Step outside your bubble, Wade. This stuff isn't hard to find out. People have written books on the history of anti-Masonry/freemasonry. Some libraries will even let you read them for free.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Mike Reed

[mfbukowski]

An interesting article:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=12&num=1&id=310

There are apparent masonic references in the Book of Mormon; interpreting them is another matter.

[wenglund]

If Joseph Smith doesn't mention things explicitly, they we can conclude that those things didn't have a significant presence... gotcha. Step outside your bubble, Wade. This stuff isn't hard to find out. People have written books on the history of anti-Masonry/freemasonry. Some libraries will even let you read them for free.

I see. The absence of any mention of Masonry in Joseph's journal and the History of the Church prior to 1842, is entirely meaningless when determining how awash Joseph's personal world was, in meaningful ways, with the subject--particularly if the subject is supposedly having a significant impact on the formulation of various beliefs and practices in the Church over which he is the prophet? Are you kidding me?

Your a funny guy, Mike. Can you say, "theory laden" and "coinfirmation bias"? LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited November 9, 2011 by wenglund

[Mike Reed]

with the subject--particularly if the subject is supposedly having a significant impact on the formulation of various beliefs and practices in the Church over which he is the prophet? Are you kidding me?

No. I am not kidding you. If you knew anything about the anti-masonic backlash, you would know that this was a time for proponents of the craft to "hunker down" and weather the storm. It wasn't until the 1840s that most proponents felt safe enough to publically discuss their fondness of the craft.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Mike Reed

[mfbukowski]

On the other hand....

[Mike Reed]

An interesting article:

http://maxwellinstit...12&num=1&id=310

There are apparent masonic references in the Book of Mormon; interpreting them is another matter.

Yeah. This this is one of the articles that George Oliver and I plan to respond to.

[mfbukowski]

Yeah. This this is one of the articles that George Oliver and I plan to respond to.

He's getting a little old, it's good to know that his jaw is still intact. Or is he responding by ouija board?

[Mike Reed]

He's getting a little old, it's good to know that his jaw is still intact. Or is he responding by ouija board?

Heh... Nah. He's been reincarnated.

[wenglund]

No. I am not kidding you. If you knew anything about the anti-masonic backlash, you would know that this was a time for proponents of the craft to "hunker down" and weather the storm. It wasn't until the 1840s that most proponents felt safe enough to publically discuss their fondness of the craft.

Even were I to grant your fairly reasonable claim of "hunkering down" and a dearth of public expressions favorable to Free Masonry during the 1830's, this wouldn't apply to private journals and letters--materials comprising the HoC.

Besides, Joseph was hardly a wilting violet when it came to expressing his beliefs. Look at how he was persecuted for his religious beliefs, and yet he kept on speaking. Were he to have personally been awash with favorable information about Masonry, particularly in such a way that it significantly impacted foundational documents and sacred practices in the church, I highly doubt that he would have been entirely silent about it in public, let alone in private material.

So, I am sorry, but I am not buying what seems to me to be a hyper-exaggeration on your part, though I suppose it is possible that the Smith farmhouse in Palmyra and Joseph's several residents in Kirtland, may have been the vortex of ancient and modern data back in the day--that is, if one is to believe the critics regarding all the resources Joseph is alleged to have been intimately familiar with in order to supposedly produce the LDS system of belief naturalistically.

Thanks,, -Wade Englund-

[Mike Reed]

Even were I to grant your fairly reasonable claim of "hunkering down" and a dearth of public expressions favorable to Free Masonry during the 1830's, this wouldn't apply to private journals and letters--materials comprising the HoC.

You presume that Joseph Smith did not mention (implicitly or explicitly) it in the 1830's. I reject this presumption.

Besides, Joseph was hardly a wilting violet when it came to expressing his beliefs. Look at how he was persecuted for his religious beliefs, and yet he kept on speaking.

Ah yes... with regard to things like his united firm revelation and polygamous relationships, he was no coward. He boldly declared them to the world! Oh wait... weren't there denials and encrypted documents?

So, I am sorry, but I am not buying what seems to me to be a hyper-exaggeration on your part

I am not asking you buy it. I merely advise you to do your homework before you pretend to be informed on a topic you know little or nothing about.

though I suppose it is possible that the Smith farmhouse in Palmyra and Joseph's several residents in Kirtland, may have been the vortex of ancient and modern data back in the day

This is about freemasonry and how Masons imagined "celestial masonry." Joseph's development of the endowment was consistent with these ideas. And no... I am not arriving to this conclusion by piecing together obscure sources scattered throughout in the US and Europe. I am focusing my studies primarily on the Christianization movement, which emerged shortly after the revolution and culminated in Joseph's day.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Mike Reed

[wenglund]

You presume that Joseph Smith did not mention (implicitly or explicitly) it in the 1830's. I reject this presumption.

I presumed nothing. I simply reported my word search findings in the HoC. Listen and learn.

Ah yes... with regard to things like his united firm revelation and polygamous relationships, he was no coward. He boldly declared them to the world! Oh wait... weren't there denials and encrypted documents?

Try thinking a little deeper about this, and perhaps it may dawn on you that you wouldn't have been able to make this smug sneer were there no public or private expressions about these things. And, ask yourself whether the encrypted documents were public or private, then listen and learn.

I am not asking you buy it. I merely advise you to do your homework before you pretend to be informed on a topic you know little or nothing about.

Perhaps in all your self-vaunted education you failed to learn something so simple as one isn't pretending to be informed on a subject when one simply purports the results of a words search of the HoC. Listen and learn.

This is about freemasonry and how Masons imagined "celestial masonry." Joseph's development of the endowment was consistent with these ideas. And no... I am not arriving to this conclusion by piecing together obscure sources scattered throughout in the US and Europe. I am focusing my studies primarily on the Christianization movement, which emerged shortly after the revolution and culminated in Joseph's day.

I am only speaking here, on this thread, about what did or didn't show up in Joseph's journals and the HoC, and what that may suggest about his personal exposure, in any meaningful way, to Free Masonry. Please try and stay focused. In other words, listen and learn.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

I think it is important to realize that our faith in the endowment has little to do with what masonic activity was or was not happening in Western New York in the early to mid 19th century. and if it does, we probably need to re-examine why we might imagine such things are important.

The bottom line is that Joseph was inspired by God, and that God has given us the sublime gift of being able to become like him. The metaphors we use are tools to assist us in further understanding the process and God's wisdom. They are pedantic devices like the methods we use to first learn mathematical concepts like multiplication and division, which become less and less relevant to the techniques and learning devices we first used when we were young, as we grow in our knowledge,

There comes a time when counting on our fingers is no longer relevant.

[Calm]

I think it is important to realize that our faith in the endowment has little to do with what masonic activity was or was not happening in Western New York in the early to mid 19th century. and if it does, we probably need to re-examine why we might imagine such things are important.

The bottom line is that Joseph was inspired by God, and that God has given us the sublime gift of being able to become like him. The metaphors we use are tools to assist us in further understanding the process and God's wisdom. They are pedantic devices like the methods we use to first learn mathematical concepts like multiplication and division, which become less and less relevant to the techniques and learning devices we first used when we were young, as we grow in our knowledge,

There comes a time when counting on our fingers is no longer relevant.

Using math as a tool to assist us in tithing changes nothing of the sacredness of the act.

Focusing on the tool rather than on what the tool helps us accomplish really misses the point, IMO.

[mfbukowski]

Using math as a tool to assist us in tithing changes nothing of the sacredness of the act.

Focusing on the tool rather than on what the tool helps us accomplish really misses the point, IMO.