altersteve Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Yes. It matters a lot in whether you preach the true Jesus or "another" Jesus as the ApostlePaul warned about.CFR that Paul warned about preaching "another" Jesus.
orion88 Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 (edited) And that makes it doctrine? It's only doctrine if the united voice of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve declare it as such. If there is any disagreement among them, it's not doctrine.Church doctrine is anything your church publishes in its training manuals. After all,it's called "Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual ..."And current and past prophets have always clearly taught that Jesus has been God for eternity.Would you provide some official sources that clearly show what you just said.Keep in mind that the 1997 version of Gospel Principles contains the teaching by JosephSmith that Heavenly Father became God. This has since been removed from the 2009version.Thanks,Tony Edited October 30, 2011 by orion88
Kenngo1969 Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 I once had an interaction with an Evangelical on this Board who said, "My Jesus is from above; your Jesus is from below." I replied, "You mean, your Jesus is from Canada, and my Jesus is from Mexico? Well, there are a lot of 'em down there, except that they say it, 'Hay-SOOS.'" Sorry! Couldn't resist. Carry on! 1
Pahoran Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Church doctrine is anything your church publishes in its training manuals. After all,it's called "Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual ..."And so, we have yet another anti-Mormon who arrogantly insists that he gets to define our doctrine for us, then proceeds to arrogantly decide who is and isn't a Christian.In answer to your earlier question: of course JW's are Christians. Only the most insecure, censorious, nit-picking Pharisee would attempt to deny that obvious fact based upon such minute parsing of doctrinal claims.Why, even American Protestants (of all people) are Christians. That doesn't mean that they are right, of course.Regards,Pahoran 1
bluebell Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Yes. It matters a lot in whether you preach the true Jesus or "another" Jesus as the Apostle Paul warned about. Did Jesus and His apostles teach his premortal roots before they could determine whether or not someone was saved, or are your posts an example of 'extra biblical' teachings concerning salvation and being a follower of Christ? Do you believe Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians too when they teach Jesus is Michael the Archangel?Do they claim to be?
ebeddoulos Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Yes. It matters a lot in whether you preach the true Jesus or "another" Jesus as the ApostlePaul warned about.Do you believe Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians too when they teach Jesus is Michaelthe Archangel?I do. It has been my experience that the Jehovah's Witnesses with whom I am acquainted live far, far more Christ-like lives than the religious bigots who claim that they are not Christian. 2
maklelan Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I do. It has been my experience that the Jehovah's Witnesses with whom I am acquainted live far, far more Christ-like lives than the religious bigots who claim that they are not Christian.I'm surprised at the number of people who defend their sectarianism by assuming others are sectarian.
altersteve Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Church doctrine is anything your church publishes in its training manuals. After all,it's called "Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual ..."No. Once again, Church doctrine is anything in the scriptures and anything that the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve declare as such. Gospel "training manuals" are not the final word on doctrine.Would you provide some official sources that clearly show what you just said.Keep in mind that the 1997 version of Gospel Principles contains the teaching by JosephSmith that Heavenly Father became God. This has since been removed from the 2009version.Thanks,TonyFirst, I disagree that Joseph Smith taught that Heavenly Father "became God." Second, the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon, are clear that Jesus is the Eternal God, the Everlasting Father of heaven and earth. Something can't contradict what the scriptures say and still be official doctrine.
altersteve Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I once had an interaction with an Evangelical on this Board who said, "My Jesus is from above; your Jesus is from below." I replied, "You mean, your Jesus is from Canada, and my Jesus is from Mexico? Well, there are a lot of 'em down there, except that they say it, 'Hay-SOOS.'" Sorry! Couldn't resist. Carry on! This is brilliant.
Vance Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I do. It has been my experience that the Jehovah's Witnesses with whom I am acquainted live far, far more Christ-like lives than the religious bigots who claim that they are not Christian.THAT has been my experience as well.
Vance Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Bill McKeever banned me from Mormon Coffee because I would not answer a question from him about grace the way he wanted me to. Seriously.I insisted that we believe that we must keep the commandments to be saved, but that our obedience was not what created our salvation- only Christ did that.Bill would not allow me to dialogue with anybody else on the site until he felt I had satisfactorily answered his question- he removed my comments to others about other topics. I remained calm and I think reasonable in our dialogue. But ultimately, he kicked me off the site because I would not agree that we earn our salvation. I have since looked back to see if he had removed the discussion between us and found that he had indeed removed it. It was truly grotesque. They are all about smear and spin.I have been banned by them as well. They can't have a discussion until or unless they have complete control. Of course, it stands to reason that they are afraid of having an honest and open discussion.Have no fear though, LDSaints aren't the only ones that have trouble there.http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=783
Rob Bowman Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 ebeddoulos wrote:I do. It has been my experience that the Jehovah's Witnesses with whom I am acquainted live far, far more Christ-like lives than the religious bigots who claim that they are not Christian.And Dan wrote:I'm surprised at the number of people who defend their sectarianism by assuming others are sectarian.And Vance said "me too":THAT has been my experience as well.If any of you had bothered to study what Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe, you would know that they don't regard Mormons as Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they are the only true Christians.
bluebell Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 If any of you had bothered to study what Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe, you would know that they don't regard Mormons as Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they are the only true Christians.Why does that matter in regards to whether or not we believe they are Christians?I'm not trying to be snarky, i just sincerely don't understand the point of this post. Are you suggesting that one of the measuring sticks we should use as to whether or not someone is Christian is whether or not they believe we are? 3
Rob Bowman Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 bluebell,The posts to which I was responding contrasted the Jehovah's Witnesses as supposedly Christ-like people with the "religious bigots" who deny that Mormons are Christians (i.e., evangelicals). My point is that the Jehovah's Witnesses are also "religious bigots" by this standard, because they also deny that Mormons are Christians.Why does that matter in regards to whether or not we believe they are Christians?I'm not trying to be snarky, i just sincerely don't understand the point of this post. Are you suggesting that one of the measuring sticks we should use as to whether or not someone is Christian is whether or not they believe we are?
ERayR Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 ebeddoulos wrote:And Dan wrote:And Vance said "me too":If any of you had bothered to study what Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe, you would know that they don't regard Mormons as Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they are the only true Christians.Naturally they do, just as you do. The difference is they are not claiming others are not Christian or that they are worshipping a different Jesus.
Rob Bowman Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 ERayR,You wrote:Naturally they do, just as you do. The difference is they are not claiming others are not Christian or that they are worshipping a different Jesus.You simply don't know what you're talking about. Jehovah's Witnesses do claim that others are not true Christians. They also claim that others worship a false Jesus. I have been studying their religion for 35 years, written four books on their theology, and engaged them in discussion for thousands of hours. Their publications are full of statements criticizing the beliefs of those whom they say "claim" to be Christians. Good grief, Jehovah's Witnesses are one of the most strident, dogmatic religious groups you will ever encounter.
Vance Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 If any of you had bothered to study what Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe, . . . My statement was about their BEHAVIOR, not about their beliefs. . . . you would know that they don't regard Mormons as Christians.If that is true, unlike anti-Mormon Evangelicals, they don't make it a big deal, otherwise we would have heard about it.Jehovah's Witnesses claim that they are the only true Christians.I noticed that they didn't exclude any group from being "Christians" in that article. You will have to do better than that.
Vance Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 You simply don't know what you're talking about. Jehovah's Witnesses do claim that others are not true Christians. Bowman is equivocating again. Sorry but "true Christians" is not the same as "Christians".All I know is that the ones I have met and know have behaved a lot more "Christian" than all of the Evangelical anti-Mormons I have EVER encountered.
ERayR Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 ERayR,You wrote:You simply don't know what you're talking about. Jehovah's Witnesses do claim that others are not true Christians. They also claim that others worship a false Jesus. I have been studying their religion for 35 years, written four books on their theology, and engaged them in discussion for thousands of hours. Their publications are full of statements criticizing the beliefs of those whom they say "claim" to be Christians. Good grief, Jehovah's Witnesses are one of the most strident, dogmatic religious groups you will ever encounter.Pardon me if I don't accept your word for it. If you are as correct in your characterizations of the Jehovah's Witness as you are in your characterization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints then I really can't give it much credance at all. 3
Rob Bowman Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Vance,You wrote:Bowman is equivocating again. Sorry but "true Christians" is not the same as "Christians".Jehovah's Witnesses use both expressions exclusively for themselves. You are the one who is equivocating.All I know is that the ones I have met and know have behaved a lot more "Christian" than all of the Evangelical anti-Mormons I have EVER encountered.So now behavior defines who is "more 'Christian'" than another, and you feel quite comfortable judging us as less "Christian" than others, even as you complain if anyone denies that you are true "Christians." How tiresome, and how predictable.
Rob Bowman Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 ERayR,You wrote:Pardon me if I don't accept your word for it. If you are as correct in your characterizations of the Jehovah's Witness as you are in your characterization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints then I really can't give it much credance at all.I never ask anyone to take my word for anything. If you really want to know, go spend a few hours reading Watchtower literature for yourself. On the other hand, if you subscribe to the belief that ignorance is bliss, feel free to continue blissfully denying something without first investigating the matter.
altersteve Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 ERayR,You wrote:You simply don't know what you're talking about. Jehovah's Witnesses do claim that others are not true Christians. They also claim that others worship a false Jesus. I have been studying their religion for 35 years, written four books on their theology, and engaged them in discussion for thousands of hours. Their publications are full of statements criticizing the beliefs of those whom they say "claim" to be Christians. Good grief, Jehovah's Witnesses are one of the most strident, dogmatic religious groups you will ever encounter.True, but they don't have ministries and organizations dedicated to destroying the Church of Jesus Christ. I think that's what was meant by "religious bigot," although I agree that that word is a little harsh.
ERayR Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) ERayR,You wrote:I never ask anyone to take my word for anything. If you really want to know, go spend a few hours reading Watchtower literature for yourself. On the other hand, if you subscribe to the belief that ignorance is bliss, feel free to continue blissfully denying something without first investigating the matter.I assume you prescribe to this theory as you refuse to be taught and ignore corrections in your pronouncements of the beliefs of The COJCOLDS.Oh by the way I have probably been reading Watchtower a lot longer than you. Edited October 31, 2011 by ERayR
Vance Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Vance,Jehovah's Witnesses use both expressions exclusively for themselves.Well, you are going to have to prove it, because until you do, I am not buying it. You are the one who is equivocating.How so? Bald assertion won't do it. So now behavior defines who is "more 'Christian'" than another, and you feel quite comfortable judging us as less "Christian" than others,Notice that I am not denying that anyone is a "Christian". . . . even as you complain if anyone denies that you are true "Christians."More strawman from Bowman. How tiresome, and how predictable.
Rob Bowman Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 ERayR,You wrote:I assume you prescribe to this theory as you refuse to be taught and ignore corrections in your pronouncements of the beliefs of The COJCOLDS.Your statement is contrary to fact.You wrote:Oh by the way I have probably been reading Watchtower a lot longer than you.Okay, let's compare. I've been studying the Watchtower and its publications since 1975. There is also the matter of how intensive one's study has been. I have easily spent thousands of hours studying Jehovah's Witness literature and discussing theological matters with Jehovah's Witnesses.
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