Justification For The Mountain Meadows Massacre?

[frankenstein]

Then please explain the need for "cities of refuge".

Lehi

Written in the lds bible dictionary is that cities of refuge were for accidental homoicide, based on the record nephi,s action was no accident.

[Nevo]

Incidentally, just how many Mormons did die as a result of persecution in Missouri and Illinois? You appear to have a handle on a total number. I'm curious to know what it is and whether it includes those who suffered and died from exposure to the elements after being driven from their homes.

By my count, about 27 Mormons were killed by mobs/militia in Missouri and Illinois.

(Obviously many more Mormons died of sickness or exposure during the various migrations of the 1830s and 40s, which involved the movement of over ten thousand people.)

[Cobalt-70]

Your chronocentrism, specifically, your presentism, colors your view on this.

Please describe the law under which both Laban and Nephi lived that made this murder, as opposed to an execution.

You are the one who calls it murder: the burden is yours.

Vigilante execution of thieves were not okay under Biblical law. Even in Hebrew times, there was rule of law. An execution could not occur unless two witnesses of a crime testified before the judge. Deut. 17:6. If you did not heed the judge's authority, you yourself would be put to death. Deut. 17:8-13. If you took it upon yourself to kill someone, that was murder, unless either (1) you are the next of kin of someone who was killed and your victim was the killer, or (2) it was an accident, in which case it was manslaughter and you could avoid execution by fleeing to a city of refuge. See Exodus 21:12-14, NIV ("Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death.")

Besides, robbery and threats were not a capital offenses under Biblical law. Even if Nephi were the judge, he could not execute Laban for that.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[Scott Lloyd]

By my count, about 27 Mormons were killed by mobs/militia in Missouri and Illinois.

(Obviously many more Mormons died of sickness or exposure during the various migrations of the 1830s and 40s, which involved the movement of over ten thousand people.)

Thanks.

[LeSellers]

Written in the lds bible dictionary is that cities of refuge were for accidental homoicide, based on the record nephi,s action was no accident.

Homicide under the Law of Moses demanded an avenger of blood. The cities of refuge were there to protect those who kileed someone by accident, not to protect murderers.

The avenger of blood was charged with slaying the murderer whenever he found him unless he was in a city of refuge (there were six), and then if the avenger of blood requested it, the refugee was put on trial. If found guilty, he was then slain by the avenger of blood, not the community.

Nephi was the avenger of blood, he was not a murderer, in spite of your allegations. Those who bore false witness were to be punished with the same punishment that would have been meted out against the falsely accused if he were convicted. Laban accused Lehi's sons of being thieves and robbers. How should he have been punished?

Once again we see chronocentrism rearing its notoriously ugly head.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

(Obviously many more Mormons died of sickness or exposure during the various migrations of the 1830s and 40s, which involved the movement of over ten thousand people.)

Who would not have had to move absent the persecution by the Missourians, the Ohioans, the New Yorkers, and Pennsylvanians, and the Illinoisans.

All those deaths lie at the doors of the mobocrats. There were many hundreds, not to mention the wounded. Joseph Smith, Sen., died as a direct result of mob action, so did Emma's adopted son. Did you count those? How about those who froze to death on the western bank of the Mississippi, are they in your number?

The XIX gangs of Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York, Missouri, and Arkansas (inter alia) were just as vile and nefarious as any in Los Angeles or Chicago today; and every bit as deadly.

Lehi

Lehi

[Cobalt-70]

The murder of Laban was completely unnecessary from a practical standpoint.

He could have kidnapped Laban instead, but kidnapping was also a capital crime.

[Deborah]

He could have kidnapped Laban instead, but kidnapping was also a capital crime.

Good grief. Laban had already taken their property and threatened their lives. What could they do with him if the kidnapped him. He was a vindictive man who would have pursued them. In order to preserve their lives and the record Nephi reluctantly did as he was commanded.

I hate to see what would happen if certain people on this board were threatened by evil. I suppose they would cower and give in to the threats rather than take a stand.

[citizen28]

He could have kidnapped Laban instead, but kidnapping was also a capital crime.

Or, rather than 'deliver Laban into Nephi's hands', God could have found another way to dispose of him. Apparently, God felt it necessary for Nephi to get his hands dirty. Or maybe God felt it necessary to teach Nephi a lesson about obeying, even when the prospect of doing so offends your sensibilities.

[frankenstein]

Homicide under the Law of Moses demanded an avenger of blood. The cities of refuge were there to protect those who kileed someone by accident, not to protect murderers.

The avenger of blood was charged with slaying the murderer whenever he found him unless he was in a city of refuge (there were six), and then if the avenger of blood requested it, the refugee was put on trial. If found guilty, he was then slain by the avenger of blood, not the community.

Nephi was the avenger of blood, he was not a murderer, in spite of your allegations. Those who bore false witness were to be punished with the same punishment that would have been meted out against the falsely accused if he were convicted. Laban accused Lehi's sons of being thieves and robbers. How should he have been punished?

Once again we see chronocentrism rearing its notoriously ugly head.

Lehi

Whose blood was nephi avenging? That who did laban killl the made Belgium an avenger.

Secondly I only stated nephis action was not an accident it would week that in your haste to be offended you have made a false allegation.

[Cobalt-70]

Homicide under the Law of Moses demanded an avenger of blood. The cities of refuge were there to protect those who kileed someone by accident, not to protect murderers.

The avenger of blood was charged with slaying the murderer whenever he found him unless he was in a city of refuge (there were six), and then if the avenger of blood requested it, the refugee was put on trial. If found guilty, he was then slain by the avenger of blood, not the community.

Nephi was the avenger of blood, he was not a murderer, in spite of your allegations. Those who bore false witness were to be punished with the same punishment that would have been meted out against the falsely accused if he were convicted. Laban accused Lehi's sons of being thieves and robbers. How should he have been punished?

Nephi was not an avenger of blood, because Laban did not murder Nephi's next of kin. You didn't become an avenger of blood just because someone robbed you. If you "avenged" a robbery, you yourself were a murderer.

[Cobalt-70]

I hate to see what would happen if certain people on this board were threatened by evil. I suppose they would cower and give in to the threats rather than take a stand.

Well, we know what the Southern Utah Mormons did when they were "threatened by evil" in 1857.

[ERayR]

The unimaginative one, i.e. the most likely one...

I was once asked by a non-LDS friend if there was anything, God could/would not command. Based on scriptural accounts, he's capable of commanding the slaying of an unconscious, defenseless man (Nephi), the sacrifice of a child (Abraham & Isaac), and the killing of infants (1Sam 15 - if you accept it as translated correctly). On the other hand, God had never been known to command fornication or rape.

God obviously has a different perspective than you.

[why me]

Well, we know what the Southern Utah Mormons did when they were "threatened by evil" in 1857.

And of coarse this was only 13 years after the murder of Joseph and his brother Hyrum. And also just 12 or so years after the long trek westward to find a place to live and practice their faith. Memories were fresh in the minds of the saints. As I said, they were threatened by evil coming from california and from the federal government.

[Zakuska]

Nephi was not an avenger of blood, because Laban did not murder Nephi's next of kin. You didn't become an avenger of blood just because someone robbed you. If you "avenged" a robbery, you yourself were a murderer.

However... He was justified... You agreed earlier that Laban had attempted to Murder Nephi and his Brothers and then stold their Gold.

Attempted murder was punishable by Death.

Deuteronomy 19:18-21 says, "And the judges must search thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and has brought a false charge against his brother, 19 YOU must also do to him just as he had schemed to do to his brother, and you must clear away what is bad from your midst. 20 So those who remain will hear and be afraid, and they will never again do anything bad like this in your midst. 21 And your eye should not feel sorry: soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

God was the judge and Nephi exacted the judgment the law required and killed Laban with his own sword with which he had attempted to Kill Nephi with.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Zakuska

[ERayR]

The murder of Laban was completely unnecessary from a practical standpoint.

Well shucks why didn't you tell this to Nephi. You could have saved him some anguish.

[frankenstein]

However... He was justified... You agreed earlier that Laban had attempted to Murder Nephi and his Brothers and then stold their Gold.

Attempted murder was punishable by Death.

Deuteronomy 19:18-21 says, "And the judges must search thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and has brought a false charge against his brother, 19 YOU must also do to him just as he had schemed to do to his brother, and you must clear away what is bad from your midst. 20 So those who remain will hear and be afraid, and they will never again do anything bad like this in your midst. 21 And your eye should not feel sorry: soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

God was the judge and Nephi exacted the judgment the law required and killed Laban with his own sword with which he had attempted to Kill Nephi with.

Are you serious. You are using a verse about bearing witness to justify homicide? The irony of it all is this false witness you have given concerning the bible.

[Zakuska]

Are you serious. You are using a verse about bearing witness to justify homicide? The irony of it all is this false witness you have given concerning the bible.

Oh my, How quickly we forget the context...

We first are speaking about Murderers being put to death for their murders by the next of kin to someone who is murdered. (ie The Avenger of Blood)

Deut 19

19:11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:

"If any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die... Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him."

19:12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.

19:13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

Then we go into attempted murder by a single witness bearing false witness.

19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;

19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

There were 3 witnesses to the attempted murder of Nephi. Nephi, Laman and Lemuel.

Laban even bares false witness against them.

1 Nephi 3

13 And behold, it came to pass that Laban was angry, and thrust him out from his presence; and he would not that he should have the records. Wherefore, he said unto him: Behold thou art a robber, and I will slay thee.

They then went and tried to purchase the plates. To no avail.

Laban again attempts to murder them and robs them instead. So Laban has accused Nephi and co. of the very thing he himself did.

That isn't "Innocent Blood" and is the very definition of a false witness.

God was the judge, Nephi Laman and Lemuel were the witnesses, and God commanded Nephi to exacted what the law required.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Zakuska

[frankenstein]

Zakuska, your are stretching beyond reason. You have not shown in the least that attempted murder was a capital crime for the house of Israel. Moreover your use of verses about false witnesses is just nonsensical.

[Pahoran]

So then, when the call was made to "Do your duty!" If not a duty to God, then to whom or what?

Ah yes, the Jaybear method: argument by innuendo.

I shall answer your question with another: when Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson, A. P. Hill, Leonidas K. Polk, James Longstreet and Robert E. Lee -- all contemporaries of John D. Lee -- exhorted their troops to "do your duty," to what religious duty did they refer?

The MMM was carried out by units of the Utah militia, under the command of their militia officers. "Do your duty" was a standard piece of military phraseology at the time; thus, if indeed it was said, in the context of a military operation carried out by soldiers under military command, then it would have been referring to military duty.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

If you are a Mormon, especially if you came up through the Primary system and sang songs like "Follow the Prophet," and you believe that your priesthood leaders will never lead you astray, then there is a bit--just a bit--of John D. Lee in you.

Pure unadulterated anti-Mormon propaganda.

And an utterly inconscionable lie.

As you no doubt realise, Lee was not following the counsel of any Priesthood leaders when he set out to commit murder. The Southern Utah leaders did in fact ask for such counsel, but instead of waiting for it, they panicked and acted of their own volition.

Still, in order to make the MMM useful for anti-Mormon propaganda purposes, it is necessary to try to pretend that it was caused by something inherent in Mormon life and teaching.

It was not.

And no honest critic of the Church -- if such there be -- has ever claimed that it was.

Just so you know.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Skylla]

If you are a Mormon, especially if you came up through the Primary system and sang songs like "Follow the Prophet," and you believe that your priesthood leaders will never lead you astray, then there is a bit--just a bit--of John D. Lee in you. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. Whether it is good or bad really depends on what kind of people your priesthood leaders are. For Lee, not so good.

We're not going to tolerate comments like this. What you are implying is offensive. Next time you will face suspension from the board.

Skylla

[Cobalt-70]

However... He was justified... You agreed earlier that Laban had attempted to Murder Nephi and his Brothers and then stold their Gold.

Attempted murder was punishable by Death.

Deuteronomy 19:18-21 says, "And the judges must search thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and has brought a false charge against his brother, 19 YOU must also do to him just as he had schemed to do to his brother, and you must clear away what is bad from your midst. 20 So those who remain will hear and be afraid, and they will never again do anything bad like this in your midst. 21 And your eye should not feel sorry: soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

God was the judge and Nephi exacted the judgment the law required and killed Laban with his own sword with which he had attempted to Kill Nephi with.

Two problems with this. First, Nephi was not a judge, and therefore had no legal right to pass judgment on Laban, thereby taking the law into his own hands. Second, you are misconstruing this scripture, which has nothing to do with attempted murder. This scripture is about the penalty for bearing false witness in court.

[Cobalt-70]

19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

The crime here is perjury, not attempted murder.

[Zakuska]

Two problems with this. First, Nephi was not a judge, and therefore had no legal right to pass judgment on Laban, thereby taking the law into his own hands. Second, you are misconstruing this scripture, which has nothing to do with attempted murder. This scripture is about the penalty for bearing false witness in court.

1) I never said Nephi was a Judge. God was the Judge. Even in Deuteronomy.

19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

The crime here is perjury, not attempted murder.

So then according to your reading of the verse the one that was being wronged could only lie in return to about the person who was bearing false witness and trying to get him killed?

What don't you understand about "and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?

Edited October 31, 2011 by Zakuska