The Curse Of Cain

[ERayR]

That was my inference from what Steve said. You are conflicting my view with his I believe. He stated that the priesthood started with Adam so I supposed the logical assumption that everyone held the priesthood since we are all descended from Adam. Not that I believe this train of thought.

It does not logically follow that because everyone decended from Adam that everyone holds the priesthood.

[Jesterss]

It was not "genetic", it was patrilineal; there's a difference.

"Patrilineality (or agnatic kinship) is a system in which one belongs to one's father's lineage.^[1] It generally involves the inheritance of property, names or titles through the male line as well."

Perhaps the definition of patrilineal will help. But genetically, all males receive their Y chromosome from their father, hence, it is patrilineal that males become males. Just as it is patrilineal that the descendants of levi would all be part of the levitical priesthood.

It still required ordination. See Ex 20:23~29.

Dressing Eleazar in the clothing of the High Priest was the equivalent of laying on of hands (both are symbolic), and it was the way Moses demonstrated to the Israelites the transfer of the Priesthood to the son of Aaron.

Exodus 20 doesn't appear to be the correct reference. Not finding what you are discussing here. But I know what you're referring to. Anyway, your reference to clothing being equivalent to laying on of hands is interesting. As a symbolic gesture sure, that may be an inference that can be made, if there is supporting evidence. I don't see much supporting evidence for that inference though, other than it's plausible.

This also illustrates the superiority of Moses compared to the High Priests Aaron and Eleazar, and because it was a Priesthood act, Moses must have held a higher Priesthood than his brother(-in-law) or his nephew.

Not necessarily. Just because someone is above these priests, it does not necessitate that they are a priesthood holder, we know moses is indeed a prophet, but not necessarily a priest.

and who is the brother(-in-law) you speak of? are you saying Aaron was Moses' brother-in-law? not actual brother? or what?

Edited October 13, 2011 by Jesterss

[Jesterss]

It does not logically follow that because everyone decended from Adam that everyone holds the priesthood.

If one understands that the priesthood was of patrilineal descent, from among the tribe of lehi, then yes it would logically follow that any descendant of Adam could hold the priesthood.

Perhaps like the others you believe it is a position to be ordained, but is it? We know that the bible talks about the tribe of levi given cities inside the other tribes land and that their birthright is to be priests and receive tithing. Therefore, it is their birthright, meaning it is not ordained by a humanly practice, rather by their simple birth. That would be the ordainment.

[Jesterss]

Except that that's not logical at all, nor is it supported by the Bible like you claim it is. Like Lehi said, the Levitical priesthood was patrilineal, not genetic. It was passed down from father to son, but an ordination was still needed. The Levites were not born with priesthood authority. So all you're doing is distorting LDS belief here.

Do you not believe that the tribe of levi had the birthright to be priests to the people in the city's and of lands of the other tribes?

Edit: I should clarify that I am referring to priests after the role of priest was conferred upon Aaron. So from Aaron down, so more accurately aaronic "priest"hood at this point. Not necessarily that all Levites were "priests" but all levites did have the right to perform washing ceremonies and receiving tithes.

the priesthood was supposed to go to moses, but he argued with God, and instead, it was conferred upon Aaron.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Jesterss

[LeSellers]

"Patrilineality (or agnatic kinship) is a system in which one belongs to one's father's lineage.^[1] It generally involves the inheritance of property, names or titles through the male line as well."

Perhaps the definition of patrilineal will help. But genetically, all males receive their Y chromosome from their father, hence, it is patrilineal that males become males. Just as it is patrilineal that the descendants of levi would all be part of the levitical priesthood.

While it is true that we inherit our maleness from our fathers, and that that inheritance is genetic, it is not true that everything we inherit from our fathers is genetic. I inherited my family name from my father, but it is not written in my genes.

My quibble with your statement was that you had said that the Priesthood passed down from father to son through the Aaronic line was genetic. It is not. And, as I reflect on it, that's not a quibble; it's substantive.

Exodus 20 doesn't appear to be the correct reference. Not finding what you are discussing here.

Sorry, it was Numbers 20.

your reference to clothing being equivalent to laying on of hands is interesting. As a symbolic gesture sure, that may be an inference that can be made, if there is supporting evidence. I don't see much supporting evidence for that inference though, other than it's plausible.

There is nothing to support the idea that the Priesthood was genetic, that's not even possible.

Yet, God explicitly told Moses how to pass the Priesthood from the father (Aaron) to the son (Eleazar). It was a public ceremony, and it was highly symbolic. The High Priest's office was almost defined by the garments he wore. Taking them from Aaron and putting them on Eleazar was the means by which Eleazar was installed as the High Priest. It was his ordination. If we go back to the point where Aaron himself was called as the High Priest, we see this:

41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

Thou shalt ... consecrate them". "Consecrate" is to make them holy. This was done by laying hands on them, and pronouncing a prayer, exactly as we do in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today. Notice that Eleazar had already been ordained a Priest (at the same time his fatehr was), but that it still took an additional ordination for him to become the High Priest.

Just because someone is above these priests, it does not necessitate that they are a priesthood holder, we know moses is indeed a prophet, but not necessarily a priest.

No one has claimed Moses was a "priest". We are saying that he held a higher priesthood. There's a difference.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

the priesthood was supposed to go to moses, but he argued with God, and instead, it was conferred upon Aaron.

Please show this.

Aaron and their sister Miriam were far worse rebels than Moses even approached.

Lehi

[Jesterss]

No one has claimed Moses was a "priest". We are saying that he held a higher priesthood. There's a difference.

If you are not a priest, how then can you be of the "priest"hood ?..

[Zakuska]

If you are not a priest, how then can you be of the "priest"hood ?..

Moses was a Priest of the order of Melquesidek, the Higher Priesthood.

Genesis 14:18

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Remember Jethro his Father in law was a Priest in the Melchizedek order as well.

Exodus 18:1

1 When Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father in law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt;

Edited October 13, 2011 by Zakuska

[LeSellers]

If you are not a priest, how then can you be of the "priest"hood ?..

The "Priesthood" is a term we use as a verbal shorthand to mean "the authority and power of God delegated to men to accomplish His works of righteousness and salvation". You'll admit that the latter is a mouthful. It encompasses several offices—not all of them are "priests".

The word "order" is often used (although not too frequently by us Saints) as a substitute for "Priesthood", as when Apollos called Jesus a member of the Order of Melchizedek.

Lehi

[Jesterss]

The "Priesthood" is a term we use as a verbal shorthand to mean "the authority and power of God delegated to men to accomplish His works of righteousness and salvation". You'll admit that the latter is a mouthful. It encompasses several offices—not all of them are "priests".

The word "order" is often used (although not too frequently by us Saints) as a substitute for "Priesthood", as when Apollos called Jesus a member of the Order of Melchizedek.

Lehi

But then you are changing Moses title as Prophet. Your whole argument is based on the changing of context and titles to fit anyone who is righteous. So if someone is anything that even resembles being righteous and doing right by God, or commandments by God, then they are considered part of the priesthood?

[Jesterss]

Moses was a Priest of the order of Melquesidek, the Higher Priesthood.

Genesis 14:18

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Remember Jethro his Father in law was a Priest in the Melchizedek order as well.

Exodus 18:1

1 When Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father in law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt;

Where was Moses ever ordained by men to be a priest? Did he get annointed with oil and wear garments or receive the laying on of hands?

[altersteve]

If you are not a priest, how then can you be of the "priest"hood ?..

Holding the priesthood is not simply being a priest. A priest is merely one of the offices of the Aaronic priesthood, and so are deacon and teacher.

Do you not believe that the tribe of levi had the birthright to be priests to the people in the city's and of lands of the other tribes?

They had the birthright, yes, but they still needed to be ordained. As Lehi said, see Numbers 20:23–29.

But then you are changing Moses title as Prophet. Your whole argument is based on the changing of context and titles to fit anyone who is righteous. So if someone is anything that even resembles being righteous and doing right by God, or commandments by God, then they are considered part of the priesthood?

Again, no. You must be ordained to hold the priesthood, it's not merely anyone who is righteous or holy. And nobody is "changing Moses title as Prophet."

[altersteve]

Where was Moses ever ordained by men to be a priest? Did he get annointed with oil and wear garments or receive the laying on of hands?

If he holds the priesthood, which he did, then yes.

[Zakuska]

If he holds the priesthood, which he did, then yes.

He married the Priest of Midians Daughter. He better have had the Priesthood.

[Jesterss]

Holding the priesthood is not simply being a priest. A priest is merely one of the offices of the Aaronic priesthood, and so are deacon and teacher.

How are deacon and teacher in the priesthood? The word priest exists in the meaning of priesthood for a reason. It's not deaconhood or teacherhood or MediatorsPlusTeachersToGodHood....

They had the birthright, yes, but they still needed to be ordained. As Lehi said, see Numbers 20:23–29.

For the sake of progression I will go along with this.

Again, no. You must be ordained to hold the priesthood, it's not merely anyone who is righteous or holy. And nobody is "changing Moses title as Prophet."

Now, when was Moses ordained?

[LeSellers]

if someone is anything that even resembles being righteous and doing right by God, or commandments by God, then they are considered part of the priesthood?

No. We've said this before: anyone who holds the Priesthood must have that power explicitly conferred on him, and then, in order to use it, he must be ordained to one or another office within the Priesthood.

Further, any action he takes must be with the consent (or directive) of the one appointed over him and who holds the keys of that office. Ultimately, all Priesthood actions are by the keys held by the President of the High Priesthood, who is also (a second calling and office) the president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Lehi

[Jesterss]

He married the Priest of Midians Daughter. He better have had the Priesthood.

And by inference that you believe the priest of midian conferred the priesthood upon Moses? So it is by inference again that you believe he held the priesthood.

[altersteve]

How are deacon and teacher in the priesthood? The word priest exists in the meaning of priesthood for a reason. It's not deaconhood or teacherhood or MediatorsPlusTeachersToGodHood....

Once again, the priesthood is not simply being a priest. You're showing a severe lack of understanding of what the priesthood really is. Deacons, teachers, and priests all hold the Aaronic priesthood, just as elders, high priests, patriarchs, seventies, and apostles hold the Melchizedek priesthood.

Now, when was Moses ordained?

No idea.

[Maidservant]

According to Lawrence Gardner:

"The story can now be progressed by considering the oldest Grant of Arms in sovereign history - an entitlement which denoted the Messianic Dragon bloodline for all time. The Sumerians referred to this insignia as the Gra-al, but biblical history refers to it as the Mark of Cain. This Mark is portrayed by the modern Church as if it were some form of curse, but it is not defined as such in the Bible. Genesis actually relates that, having got into an argument with Jehovah over a matter of sovereign observance, Cain feared for his life. Consequently, the Lord placed a mark upon Cain, swearing sevenfold vengeance against his enemies....The Sumerian Gra-al, which biblical tradition calls the Mark of Cain, was an emblem dignified as the Cup of the Waters, or the Rosi-Crucis (the Dew Cup), and it was identified in all records (including those of Egypt, Phoenicia and the Hebrew annals) as being an upright, centered Red Cross within a Circle. Throughout the ages it was developed and embellished, but it has always remained essentially the same and is recognized as being the original symbol of the Holy Grail."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wowie. Wowie.

It does say straight up in Genesis that the mark was a mark for protection so that he would not be killed, which is interesting since you would think God would want to exact the death penalty for a murder especially a murder done from the standpoint of a combination.

In any case, the Book of Jasher is very interesting on the matter of Cain. It does speak of a curse, but the curse is like this: "And it shall be when thou shalt till it, it shall no more give thee its strength as in the beginning, for thorns and thistles shall the ground produce, and thou shalt be moving and wandering in the earth until the day of thy death." Which is an echo of the curse of Adam, no different in fact, so what is the point of repeating it as a curse to murder when it should already have been in place a la Adam's transgression? [intuhresting . . . curioser and curioser . . .]

As far as Cain being cast out, he was not cast out that far since all of Adam's descendants remained in knowledge of one another in terms of society (according to the Book of Jasher), and in fact, Lamech a descendant of Cain who married Adah and Zillah, these women were descendants of Seth (Seth-Enosh-Cainan-Adah and Zillah), so that when Tubal-Cain was born, he was descendant of both Seth and Cain.

So whatever Cain's condition, and what it may or may not have had to do with skin color (I think absolutely nothing), or even with priesthood (when a man is excommunicated, do we excommunicate his kids permanently through the ages?), it did not prevent intermarriage, at least according to this record (The Book of Jasher).

altersteve:

Now-a-days we have a pretty well established method of dealing with the Priesthood holders who murder for gain. I'm not sure Adam did too, but it isn't beyond the possible/probable. It does make sense for him to leave Adams Priesthood family, and take a wife not of the Priesthood lineage of Adam.

Well, he married one of his brother's daughters, however that would be. Moses 5:28.

[LeSellers]

How are deacon and teacher in the priesthood? The word priest exists in the meaning of priesthood for a reason. It's not deaconhood or teacherhood or MediatorsPlusTeachersToGodHood....

For the sake of progression I will go along with this.

Now, when was Moses ordained?

By Jethro/Reuel (the friend of God), while he was tending his father-in-law's sheep, before he turned aside to see the Burning Bush.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

And by inference that you believe the priest of midian conferred the priesthood upon Moses? So it is by inference again that you believe he held the priesthood.

We have direct revelation on the matter. See Doctrine and Covenants, section 84.

Lehi

[shalamabobbi]

John 21:25

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

He must either have wasted a great deal of time on unimportant matters or those things were significant and important and the Bible is not the ultimate manual of the kingdom of God.

"Upon this rock I will build my church" wasn't referring to the Bible..

On topic token:

The curse of Cain was he was made the wandering bigfoot..

[Zakuska]

Now, when was Moses ordained?

The Same way John the Baptist was ordained. He got his Priesthood from his father.

[Jesterss]

Once again, the priesthood is not simply being a priest. You're showing a severe lack of understanding of what the priesthood really is. Deacons, teachers, and priests all hold the Aaronic priesthood, just as elders, high priests, patriarchs, seventies, and apostles hold the Melchizedek priesthood.

You're going to have to paint me a biblical picture here, on this one, because this is where I am seriously not understanding how you are getting from point A to point B. Where, in the bible, does it denote that Moses is a priesthood holder? So in order to answer this question, you're going to need to show me how one gets from being a prophet to one also being someone who holds the priesthood. Lehi has drawn some references but I still didn't see the connection. It was from Eleazor being clothed and somehow the connection can be referenced to laying on of hands (even though its not).. So paint me a picture here.

[Zakuska]

And by inference that you believe the priest of midian conferred the priesthood upon Moses? So it is by inference again that you believe he held the priesthood.

He Either got it from his father inlaw or his Hebrew Father.

Moses. Son of Amram (Ex. 6:16, 18, 20; 1 Chr. 6:1–3)

Amram

Amram. A Levite, son of Kohath (Num. 3:17–19; 1 Chr. 6:2–3, 18); married Jochebed and became father of Moses and Aaron (Ex. 6:18–20) and Miriam (Num. 26:59; 1 Chr. 6:3).

As we see the Levite Priesthood predate Moses and Aaron.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Zakuska