Temple Talk Guidelines

[thesometimesaint]

Senator:

That could be, but I've never felt a bit of hesitancy in asking quetions when I wanted to know.

[George Miller]

Mike Reed:

The biggest problems I have with trying to use the Masonic rituals as a proof text in the ceremony in LDS Temples is that the basics of the Temple ceremony were in place before JS was a Mason. Plus JS took so little of the Masonic, and added in his own definitions/understandings of that remainder. Plus we do have members here that are both. They say that there really is no connection.

I think that Mike hit this one on the head. Joseph Smith's knowledge of the Masonic ritual was deep and complicated WAY before Nauvoo. You suggest that Joseph Smith took "so little" from Masonry, however, you are SO wrong. In fact much of what is new in Mormonism is either directly or indirectly connected to Freemasonry. Joseph Smith almost wholesale KEPT the meanings and interpretations common in his day, so I disagree with you profoundly when you suggest that he added his own definitions and understandings. PLUS you DO have at least one member (I think you can count Kerry Shirts as a second) who will blatantly say THERE IS A CONNECTION.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[George Miller]

This is video is awesome:

This video is misguided and terribly misleading. While I have nothing but the highest regards for this brother, I disagree with the authors conclusions drastically. The misrepresentations and hand waving in this video are extremely problematic. It is clear from the presentation that not only has this author not mastered the requisite knowledge of 19th century Freemasonry necessary to put the subject into perspective, but his knowledge of the Book of Abraham and the translation process is woefully inadequate.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[George Miller]

The main objection that I have is that whether or not Joseph borrowed from Masonry is not in any way a doctrinal "gotcha" for church critics- and the main evidence I see for this is that ALL the early leaders of the church were themselves Masons and yet acknowledged the Endowment to be what it is, and that its source was inspired.

If those who were closest to Joseph and fellow members of his masonic lodge acknowledged the spiritual validity of the Endowment, and in fact passed it on to later generations, I don't think any of us are in a position to criticize their understanding of Joseph as a prophet and his restoration of the Endowment.

They were first hand witnesses to its development and sources, had the same associates Joseph did in their lodge etc, and they STILL ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THE ENDOWMENT WAS FROM GOD.

Yes but almost to a man these men ALSO believed that Freemasonry was from God, taught originally to Adam in the Garden of Eden, and passed down from father to son though the lines of the patriarchs until the secrets of Masonry were lost at the time of the death of Hiram Abiff. As such your objection is a distinction without a difference.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[George Miller]

[REPEAT]

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[Bill Hamblin]

I think that Mike hit this one on the head. Joseph Smith's knowledge of the Masonic ritual was deep and complicated WAY before Nauvoo. You suggest that Joseph Smith took "so little" from Masonry, however, you are SO wrong. In fact there is little new on Mormonism that is not either directly or indirectly connected to Freemasonry. Joseph Smith almost wholesale KEPT the meanings and interpretations common in his day, so I disagree with you profoundly that he added his own definitions and understandings. PLUS you DO have at least one member her who will blatantly say THERE IS A CONNECTION.

Well, of course, this is something to be demonstrate, not asserted.

[George Miller]

Well, of course, this is something to be demonstrate, not asserted.

And when Mike and I publish our papers you will see it demonstrated. Of course some of this was demonstrated at the most recent MHA conference where Mike and I both gave presentations. Of course as you are well aware, this is not the place to discuss such issues, as the content is inappropriate for this venue.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[altersteve]

Yes but almost to a man these men ALSO believed that Freemasonry was from God, taught originally to Adam in the Garden of Eden and passed down from father to son though the lines of the patriarchs until the secrets of Masonry were lost at the time of the death of Hiram Abiff. As such your objection is a distinction with a difference.

CFR that "all" early Church leaders believed that Freemasonry was from God.

[thesometimesaint]

Geoge Miller:

I'm not talking about Nauvoo but Palmyra.

[George Miller]

CFR that "all" early Church leaders believed that Freemasonry was from God.

Please don't put words in my mouth and please read the context in which what I said was given. Feel free to listen to the sixish hours of discussion at Mormon Expressions. The statements made by the membership of the church on the subject were based on this common belief about Masonry during Joseph Smith's lifetime.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[LDSToronto]

George is probably too modest to post this, so I will:

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/07/05/episode-144a-mormonism-and-masonry-the-background-part-1/

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/07/05/episode-144b-mormonism-and-masonry-the-background-part-2/

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/07/12/episode-145a-mormonism-and-masonry-into-the-restoration-part-1/

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/07/12/episode-145b-mormonism-and-masonry-into-the-restoration/

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/08/02/149-mormonism-and-masonry-the-book-of-abraham-and-nauvoo/

http://mormonexpression.com/2011/08/23/152-mormonism-and-masonry-part-4-joseph-smith-and-beyond/

These podcasts are a *must-listen* to understand the influence of masonry on Mormonism and the temple.

H.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well, of course, this is something to be demonstrate, not asserted.

Of course.

[Bill Hamblin]

And when Mike and I publish our papers you will see it demonstrated. Of course some of this was demonstrated at the most recent MHA conference where Mike and I both gave presentations. Of course as you are well aware, this is not the place to discuss such issues, as the content is inappropriate for this venue.

We'll see. I look forward to reading your papers. But making an argument, and actually demonstrating your claim are, of course, two different things.

[George Miller]

Geoge Miller:

I'm not talking about Nauvoo but Palmyra.

Palmyra ... but the Smith family's Masonic roots go all the way back to Vermont and continue into Palmyra with both Joseph Smith Sr. and Hiram Smith becoming Freemasons in New York. You seem unaware that the Morgan Affair also happened just south of Palmyra and the lodges that Joseph Smith Sr. and Hiram Smith joined were heavily involved in not only the kidnapping but also in the aftermath that followed.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[Bill Hamblin]

George is probably too modest to post this, so I will:

http://mormonexpress...kground-part-1/

http://mormonexpress...kground-part-2/

http://mormonexpress...oration-part-1/

http://mormonexpress...he-restoration/

http://mormonexpress...ham-and-nauvoo/

http://mormonexpress...ith-and-beyond/

These podcasts are a *must-listen* to understand the influence of masonry on Mormonism and the temple.

H.

I listened to all of these. Big on claims; but quite short on actual evidence, analysis and demonstration. I look forward to reading a peer reviewed published book on the topic.

[George Miller]

We'll see. I look forward to reading your papers. But making an argument, and actually demonstrating your claim are, of course, two different things.

As someone who has a PhD and teaches at your alma mater, I do think I understand this my dear Doctor Hamblin.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[Bill Hamblin]

Palmyra ... but the Smith family's Masonic roots go all the way back to Vermont and continue into Palmyra with both Joseph Smith Sr. and Hiram Smith becoming Freemasons in Palmyra. You seem unaware that the Morgan Affair also happened in Palmyra and the lodges that Joseph Smith Sr. and Hiram Smith joined were heavily involved in not only the kidnapping but also in the aftermath that followed.

Joseph Sr. and Hirum were involved in the kidnapping of Morgan!? I'd love to see the evidence for that claim!

[George Miller]

Joseph Sr. and Hirum were involved in the kidnapping of Morgan!? I'd love to see the evidence for that claim!

Please do not put words in my mouth Bill Hamblin. I think if you read through what I wrote you will see that you have misrepresented what I said. That is twice in last hour that someone on this forum has misrepresented my utterances.

Edited October 10, 2011 by George Miller

[Bill Hamblin]

As someone who has a PhD and teaches at your alma mater, I do think I understand this my dear Doctor Hamblin.

Well, a Ph.D. in Biology is a great achievement, but it doesn't necessarily help you write history any more than my Ph.D. in history would help me do biology. I'm simply expressing a healthy skepticism for rather grandiose claims for having demonstrated something that has yet to produce a single peer-reviewed published article or book. Skepticism is a good thing, right?

[LDSToronto]

Well, a Ph.D. in Biology is a great achievement, but it doesn't necessarily help you write history any more than my Ph.D. in history would help me do biology. I'm simply expressing a healthy skepticism for rather grandiose claims for having demonstrated something that has yet to produce a single peer-reviewed published article or book. Skepticism is a good thing, right?

Skepticism is good, Bill. Bias, not so much.

H.

[George Miller]

Well, a Ph.D. in Biology is a great achievement, but it doesn't necessarily help you write history any more than my Ph.D. in history would help me do biology. I'm simply expressing a healthy skepticism for rather grandiose claims for having demonstrated something that has yet to produce a single peer-reviewed published article or book. Skepticism is a good thing, right?

Last time I checked skepticism was a good thing. In fact I use it as a ready tool in all my analysis.

[Bill Hamblin]

Palmyra ... but the Smith family's Masonic roots go all the way back to Vermont and continue into Palmyra with both Joseph Smith Sr. and Hiram Smith becoming Freemasons in New York. You seem unaware that the Morgan Affair also happened just south of Palmyra and the lodges that Joseph Smith Sr. and Hiram Smith joined were heavily involved in not only the kidnapping but also in the aftermath that followed.

Whoops, sorry. The lodges were involved. Which means precisely nothing about the influence of Masonry on Mormonism.

[Senator]

We'll see. I look forward to reading your papers. But making an argument, and actually demonstrating your claim are, of course, two different things.

I'm quite familiar with this in sports.........but is this the intellectual equivalant of talking smack??

[mfbukowski]

Yes but almost to a man these men ALSO believed that Freemasonry was from God, ...

CFR that "all" early Church leaders believed that Freemasonry was from God.

Please don't put words in my mouth and please read the context in which what I said was given.

Oh, I can see where this is going. You made the statement and now you are denying it.

Show me how you were misquoted in any way.

[George Miller]

Whoops, sorry. The lodges were involved. Which means precisely nothing about the influence of Masonry on Mormonism.

Of course the Smith family's involvement in Freemasonry in New York would have "precisely nothing" to say say about potential "influence of Masonry on Mormonism."