Grace In True Lds Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run

[Anakin7]

Over the years since my conversion to the LDS Church/Faith I have been constantly made aware by many an evangelical christian that LDS have a false concept and belief in the saving Grace of our Lord of Life/Lord/Saviour/Redeemer/God/King/Master Christ Jesus [ Not to mention that we also have Another/ Different/False Jesus to go along with the false Grace which leads to a false Gospel]. Why is this so ?. How and why are we percieved in that light ?. Any observations/Thoughts.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[LeSellers]

Well, it's because they, having no Priesthood (let alone Priesthood keys), cannot allow any salvific ordinances (since they cannot perform them). Thus, they must reject the biblical necessity of baptism, the laying on of hands, as well as all Temple ordinances.

All they are left with, then, is "faith". But "faith" (aka "belief") is biblically insufficient for salvation because even the demons believe tremble at Christ's presence and mission, yet they are anything but "saved".

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

¹⁹συ πιστευεις οτι ο θεος εις εστιν καλως ποιεις και τα δαιμονια πιστευουσιν και φρισσουσιν ²⁰θελεις δε γνωναι ω ανθρωπε κενε οτι η πιστις χωρις των εργων νεκρα εστιν

I quote the Greek so people can easily see that the word used in v 19 is "pist-", the same word translated "faith" elsewhere, including vv 17 and 20.

"Sola fede" is an extra-biblical notion invented by the Reformers to denigrate the Catholic Church and her priesthood. In doing so, however, they equally well undermined the true Church of Jesus Christ because she is founded on Priesthood and Priesthood keys, and without that Priesthood, she is just as ineffectual as any man-made church.

Lehi

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Over the years since my conversion to the LDS Church/Faith I have been constantly made aware by many an evangelical christian that LDS have a false concept and belief in the saving Grace of our Lord of Life/Lord/Saviour/Redeemer/God/King/Master Christ Jesus [ Not to mention that we also have Another/ Different/False Jesus to go along with the false Grace which leads to a false Gospel]. Why is this so ?. How and why are we percieved in that light ?. Any observations/Thoughts.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

It all started here with the re-definition of God..."own the definition, own the debate". So these struggle over "the right Jesus", in an effort to define him and by so doing define the apostate. Counter-cultist ministries such as "the board not to named" is a lucrative business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

[Jesterss]

Over the years since my conversion to the LDS Church/Faith I have been constantly made aware by many an evangelical christian that LDS have a false concept and belief in the saving Grace of our Lord of Life/Lord/Saviour/Redeemer/God/King/Master Christ Jesus [ Not to mention that we also have Another/ Different/False Jesus to go along with the false Grace which leads to a false Gospel]. Why is this so ?. How and why are we percieved in that light ?. Any observations/Thoughts.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

The simple answer is because non-LDS, believe in different scripture. You have what you call the extra biblical help and words from JS with the BOM plus the bible, others typically have just the bible or their church's creeds/faiths. If they don't agree, there's going to be contention, which is most often the case... The belief system is the mode of contention.

Edit: many evangelicals (good news), hold the belief that they should spread the good news. they act in much the same manner as mormon missionaries...

Edited October 6, 2011 by Jesterss

[Jesterss]

Well, it's because they, having no Priesthood (let alone Priesthood keys), cannot allow any salvific ordinances (since they cannot perform them). Thus, they must reject the biblical necessity of baptism, the laying on of hands, as well as all Temple ordinances.

All they are left with, then, is "faith". But "faith" (aka "belief") is biblically insufficient for salvation because even the demons believe tremble at Christ's presence and mission, yet they are anything but "saved".

I quote the Greek so people can easily see that the word used in v 19 is "pist-", the same word translated "faith" elsewhere, including vv 17 and 20.

"Sola fede" is an extra-biblical notion invented by the Reformers to denigrate the Catholic Church and her priesthood. In doing so, however, they equally well undermined the true Church of Jesus Christ because she is founded on Priesthood and Priesthood keys, and without that Priesthood, she is just as ineffectual as any man-made church.

Lehi

Would not the act of spreading the good news and word of jesus qualify as faith with works?

[LeSellers]

Would not the act of spreading the good news and word of jesus qualify as faith with works?

One of the serious misunderstandings in re: faith v. works is that there are (at least) two different kinds of "work", and typically both sides conflate the two.

The first "work" is good deeds". Both sides agree that these are the natural outgrowth of true conversion. But we spend a lot of times arguing over the "value" of these good works in salvation when, in fact, they have nothing to do with the question at all. A newly converted man leaves the chapel following his (baptism/confirmation) [altar call] and gets hit by a bus, dies immediately, and goes to judgment. He will, in both views, be "saved". [However, some Evangelicals go so far as to say that doing good deeds on purpose, i.e., with the goal in mind to do them, even for the glory of God, is an affront to God because they (the works) are an effort to "earn" one's salvation and demonstrate a severe lack of faith in Christ's Atonement and grace.]

The second kind of "work" encompasses Priesthood ordinances: baptism, confirmation/bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. We Saints know that baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation, Protestants (and, to a lesser degree, and only in some cases, Catholics) believe that baptism is only an outward sign of accepting Christ, that it is most definitively not a requirement for salvation at all.

It is the second on which our energies should be focused. Either baptism (for instance) is necessary or it is not. There is no third option (in spite of the Catholic opinion regarding "baptism of desire"). Then, that baptism must be performed by a legitimate Priesthood holder or it can be by anyone; again, there is no reasonable third alternative, no matter what Catholics claim in regards to baptism in emergencies. These assume third choices undermine the whole premise of baptism or priesthood. They also ignore 1 Cor 15:29, but we can expect little else from an apostate world.

"Sola fede" is unbiblical. (In fact, "sola scriptura" is equally unbiblical, but that's a new topic.) It is not consistent with "Mormonism". This does not mean that we Saints reject faith: it's not an all-or-nothing choice. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is, after all, the first principle of the Gospel. But it is no the only principle. And, even if it were, that would not mean there are no ordinances. The two concepts work in tandem to move us toward God and His kingdom.

Lehi

[Jesterss]

The first "work" is good deeds". Both sides agree that these are the natural outgrowth of true conversion. But we spend a lot of times arguing over the "value" of these good works in salvation when, in fact, they have nothing to do with the question at all. A newly converted man leaves the chapel following his (baptism/confirmation) [altar call] and gets hit by a bus, dies immediately, and goes to judgment. He will, in both views, be "saved". [However, some Evangelicals go so far as to say that doing good deeds on purpose, i.e., with the goal in mind to do them, even for the glory of God, is an affront to God because they (the works) are an effort to "earn" one's salvation and demonstrate a severe lack of faith in Christ's Atonement and grace.]

Value of course has nothing to do with it and I agree, in the end, it isn't up to us if we become saved or not, it is Jesus and God who will decide... So I agree that the value is definitely not what should be sought in this sense.. But you forget to mention the spreading of the gospel in this first "work(s)"... You only address some actions and the emphasis of value on them..

The second kind of "work" encompasses Priesthood ordinances: baptism, confirmation/bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. We Saints know that baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation, Protestants (and, to a lesser degree, and only in some cases, Catholics) believe that baptism is only an outward sign of accepting Christ, that it is most definitively not a requirement for salvation at all.

Evangelicals wouldn't disagree with the premise of baptism being a requirement... It is the difference in opinion on baptism that is the issue... you believe that it is by water, whereas others believe it is the act of accepting Jesus and being baptized in his Word. (That's my personal belief, doesn't qualify on the behalf of evangelicals)

It is the second on which our energies should be focused. Either baptism (for instance) is necessary or it is not. There is no third option (in spite of the Catholic opinion regarding "baptism of desire"). Then, that baptism must be performed by a legitimate Priesthood holder or it can be by anyone; again, there is no reasonable third alternative, no matter what Catholics claim in regards to baptism in emergencies. These assume third choices undermine the whole premise of baptism or priesthood. They also ignore 1 Cor 15:29, but we can expect little else from an apostate world.

Catholics are not among the evangelical movement... there are Evangelical Catholics, but not one and the same.. Evangelicals would argue that you take pieces of the puzzle and ignore the whole...

"Sola fede" is unbiblical. (In fact, "sola scriptura" is equally unbiblical, but that's a new topic.) It is not consistent with "Mormonism". This does not mean that we Saints reject faith: it's not an all-or-nothing choice. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is, after all, the first principle of the Gospel. But it is no the only principle. And, even if it were, that would not mean there are no ordinances. The two concepts work in tandem to move us toward God and His kingdom.

You have two different ideas or thoughts here that combine to one, but I didn't quite get it.. Scripture alone, then the first principle of the Gospel being faith... Perhaps more clarity on this?

[Anakin7]

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Temple archive - http://www.bible-researcher.com/grace.html

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - http://www.servantsnews.com/sn0211/grace.htm

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anakin7

[Questing Beast]

...The second kind of "work" encompasses Priesthood ordinances: baptism, confirmation/bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. We Saints know that baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation, Protestants (and, to a lesser degree, and only in some cases, Catholics) believe that baptism is only an outward sign of accepting Christ, that it is most definitively not a requirement for salvation at all.

It is the second on which our energies should be focused....

Lehi

I disagree, simply because after seeing to your own ordinances, what is left to "focus" on? Only ordinances for the dead. If we focus on that over good deeds, we focus on the dead in preference to the living. I don't believe that God is pleased with that kind of religion! Especially since "true religion" is outlined as ministering to the poor and needy. If ordinances (asserted priesthood works) for the dead are to be done, they surely must take second place to ministering to the wants and needs of others around us....

[KevinG]

I had a conversation with a local Baptist minister who said the Mormons "cheapen Jesus grace" by focusing on works. I told him that I think he had been misinformed as we believe we are "saved by grace after all we can do." He repeated that the "after all we can do" was cheapening God's grace.

I asked what the role of works was in his belief system. He told me that works are the proof that someone is truly converted and that you could tell if someone really wasn't saved if they weren't faithful.

He described God's grace like a lightbulb in a room, we just need to go into the room to have its light. I replied "don't we also have to have our eyes open?"

In the end the faith vs. works debate is a distinction without a difference for me. If we are saved we will do His will. If we do His will we are saved.

[Jesterss]

In the end the faith vs. works debate is a distinction without a difference for me. If we are saved we will do His will. If we do His will we are saved.

I would actually agree to this because, if we have his faith, we will also be doing his works... They typically go hand in hand.. So I don't get the whole works and faith argument myself..

[Cobalt-70]

In the end the faith vs. works debate is a distinction without a difference for me. If we are saved we will do His will. If we do His will we are saved.

I don't think it is a distinction without a difference. You cannot be saved by works alone, without faith. However, you can be saved by faith alone, without works (assuming, for some reason such as death or incapacitation, you do not have the chance to perform good works as a demonstration of your faith, or if you develop your faith after you have died).

Edited October 6, 2011 by Cobalt-70

[Anakin7]

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - http://www.bible.ca/s-faith-defined-basics.htm

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

True Grace - http://www.hallvwort....com/grace.html must be accessed/activated/Made alive in a persons spiritual/Temporal Life by way of True Faith - http://www.hallvworthington.com/George_Fox_Selections/FoxTrueFaith.html

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI Knight

Edited October 6, 2011 by Anakin7

[KevinG]

I don't think it is a distinction without a difference. You cannot be saved by works alone, without faith. However, you can be saved by faith alone, without works (assuming, for some reason such as death or incapacitation, you do not have the chance to perform good works as a demonstration of your faith, or if you develop your faith after you have died).

No one is sinless or perfect in the sense Jesus was so of course we will ultimately need to be saved by Christ's Atonement. Those who die in infancy are sinless and those who die before the age of accountability are covered by Christ's grace.

The real issue I have is someone telling me that I "cheapen God's grace" by teaching obedience to God is a requirement of our demonstration of said faith when the same person is willing to say if someone doesn't show works they don't really have faith.

Edited October 7, 2011 by DaddyG

[Cobalt-70]

No one is sinless or perfect in the sense Jesus was so of course we will ultimately need to be saved by Christ's Atonement. Those who die in infancy are sinless and those who die before the age of accountability are covered by Christ's grace.

The real issue I have is someone telling me that I "cheapen God's grace" by teaching obedience to God is a requirement of our demonstration of said faith when the same person is willing to say if someone doesn't show works they don't really have faith.

I think the sticking point is probably the "after all we can do" part, by Mormons imply that we can "do" something about our salvation without Jesus. For Protestants, the point is that nothing we can ever do on our own could ever move us even an inch towards our own salvation, given that we are carnal and depraved, and any amount of uncleanliness whatsoever will keep us out of the kingdom of heaven.

[Anakin7]

In The Book Of Mormon the "All we can do" was keeping the law of Moses but since Christs atoning Blood sacrifice on our behalf the "All we can do" [Having been Chrisianized for our day] is to have True Faith,True Repentance, And truly keep the 2 great commandments [Of which everything we do is to glofify/serve The Father and the Son] out of pure Love and Charity. We do them to show that we want to stay in the awesome covenent of His Grace, not to "earn" the Grace.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited October 7, 2011 by Anakin7

[Cobalt-70]

In The Book Of Mormon the "All we can do" was keeping the law of Moses but since Christs atoning Blood sacrifice on our behalf the "All we can do" [Having been Chrisianized for our day] is to have True Faith,True Repentance, And truly keep the 2 great commandments [Of which everything we do is to glofify/serve The Father and the Son] out of pure Love and Charity. We do them to show that we want to stay in the awesome covenent of His Grace, not to "earn" the Grace.

I would say it is a bit misleading to say that they are things we can "do." More accurately, they are things that we can "be." They are all mental states, and aspects of faith, rather than physical works, and you can experience all of them in the spirit world.

[coolrok7]

Tanyan/Anakin7, the added “after all we can do” is not here in Ephesians and is a distortion Biblical Christianity:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Also:

Just read coolrok's last post. In conversation with a # of Lutheran Priests/members it is my understanding that The Lutheran Church/Members consider True LDS Doctrines/Teachings/Members Hetrodox [Christian but with problems]. I can accept this however Protestant Reformer Martin Luther and Lutheranism are also put in the Hetrodox camp [And some would flat out state that Martin Luther was a False Prophet, a person who's teachings were not biblical and false and should be avoided], along with Lutheranism/Lutherans having another God/Jesus/Gospel. . . .Yes Jesus Christ atoning blood sacrifice saved/saves me on conditions of True Grace and True Faith on his Holy name. History and Context in coolroks references would be of value. . . .

In His Debt/ Grace

Anakin7

From the LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) website concerning other denominations:

Mormon Church

Q: Are Mormons generally regarded as Christians, and how do their beliefs differ from those of the Missouri Synod?

A:The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, together with the vast majority of Christian denominations in the United States, does not regard the Mormon church as a Christian church. That is because the official writings of Mormonism deny fundamental teachings of orthodox Christianity. . . .For more information about beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints read this document prepared by the Commission on Theology and Church Relations.

[altersteve]

Tanyan/Anakin7, the added “after all we can do” is not here in Ephesians and is a distortion Biblical Christianity:

Which tells me that you don't really understand what "after all we can do" means, because it doesn't mean that we can save ourselves or that we're adding to what Christ has done.

[KevinG]

You follow "Biblical Christianity" and I will continue to follow Jesus Christ.

[Anakin7]

Coolrok/Roy The concept is there in Ephesians ! and you did not read my above posts with links. See post #18 !. Your Church leadership may consider us non Christian but in conversation with Lutheran ecclesiastical leaders/members we are Hetrodox.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[bjw]

IMHO, the grace vs works debate is just a treadmill to keep people away from meatier issues. They like to use semantics against us. Salvation to EVs is not burning in hell for eternity. Salvation as commonly talked about by Mormons is exaltation or receiving the maximum amount of rewards in the next life for our works. Mormons believe us being saved from death and hell is accomplished by Christ alone. To EVs we must have works in our life as evidence of our initial conversion, especially in "lordship" circles. Mormons don't put as much emphasis on works to show evidence of initial conversion. Mormonism is more like climbing a ladder, with conversion being the first step. Many critics of Mormonism are taking advantage of this semantic difference to try to show we teach a works salvation.

This is simply not the case, if anything the EV belief is a much more works oriented belief with much more on the line, eternal torment. With Mormonism its all about doing works for rewards in the next life and happiness in this life, not because I need to keep showing evidence. This was my biggest gripe against the lordship view back when I was EV, because you are constantly wondering where to draw the line and if you are really saved.

[Zeta-Flux]

The entire verse reads: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

What Nephi means by "all we can do" is "believe in Christ" and "be reconciled to God."