Horse-Tapir Laughable?

[Zakuska]

Now that you've brought it to my attention, I can easily see this.

Oh but to Jestress they are just sophisticated forgeries.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Zakuska

[Calm]

Honestly, who these days would have the patience, let alone knowledge, to use a stone tool?

[William Schryver]

Now that you've brought it to my attention, I can easily see this.

All of these photos are my own, taken, as I recall, about three years ago. When you are there in person, it is much easier to see the distinctive "chipping" pattern in the ancient petroglyphs, as well as the patina. Regardless of the dating of the entire panel, it is quite apparent that the horse images were done at the same time, and employing the same tools, as the rest of the manifestly ancient petroglyphs on the panel. Likewise, it is easy to see the difference between the ancient glyphs and the modern vandalism, which appears to have been scratched into the rock face with metallic tools.

[Jesterss]

The 19th and 20th century etchings are clearly scratched on the panel, apparently with metallic tools, whereas the horse images (and the other images) are consistent with the ancient practice of chipping them on the panel with stone tools. You can see the distinctive chipping pattern on all of the ancient images, including the horse images.

what's coming out of the "horses" mouth in the bottom picture?

[Jesterss]

Oh but to Jestress they are jut sophisticated forgeries.

You never answered my early questions to you.. Glad to see you still responding without acknowledging my questions to you though.. Great practice to make such accusations and be the one running from questions..

[Jesterss]

All of these photos are my own, taken, as I recall, about three years ago. When you are there in person, it is much easier to see the distinctive "chipping" pattern in the ancient petroglyphs, as well as the patina. Regardless of the dating of the entire panel, it is quite apparent that the horse images were done at the same time, and employing the same tools, as the rest of the manifestly ancient petroglyphs on the panel. Likewise, it is easy to see the difference between the ancient glyphs and the modern vandalism, which appears to have been scratched into the rock face with metallic tools.

I'll take you at your word.

[shalamabobbi]

If you look at the horse with the archer on its back, it looks extremely light, anyone would take that as to mean more recent and not as ancient,

Pre-McDonald's supersize me..

Rock Carvings can only be dated by the idea of "patina" existing on them, but that's not even full proof, we don't know the rate of decay and it can produce false positives.

Rate of decay? Did you mean rate of accretion?

[shalamabobbi]

Back to the actual horse bones:

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_3510b187-f256-5b91-875e-b45c8865f14a.html

Maybe DNA testing:

http://archaeologyexcavations.blogspot.com/2011/05/dna-testing-on-2000-year-old-bones-in.html

will answer whether the horse was of Spanish origin or one of a few remaining native to America..

[William Schryver]

Rock Carvings can only be dated by the idea of "patina" existing on them, but that's not even full proof, we don't know the rate of decay and it can produce false positives.

???

For a minute there I actually thought you were a serious interlocutor. I see now I was mistaken.

[Zakuska]

Back to the actual horse bones:

http://www.nctimes.c...5c8865f14a.html

Radiocarbon dating of 340 years, plus or minus 40 years, puts the death of the horse sometime between 1625 and 1705, Mojado said. Therefore, the horses died at least 50 years before San Diego Mission de Alcala, the first of the California missions, was founded in 1769. The other horse and the burro were buried at the same level, suggesting that they were buried about the same time.

The bones of the horses and the donkey showed no signs of having been shod, an indicator that the horses were not brought by the Spanish, who fitted their horses with iron shoes, said Larry Tift, a researcher with Gallegos.

Maybe DNA testing:

http://archaeologyex...d-bones-in.html

will answer whether the horse was of Spanish origin or one of a few remaining native to America..

Edited October 8, 2011 by Zakuska

[J Green]

Uncertain,

I think we've found a bit of common ground, and it's been a fun discussion of a purely hypothetical scenario.

Since you likely won't be responding, I won't contribute another essay to the pile. We'll leave it where it is, and if you want to pick it up again at some point, I'm always here.

Safe travels. After a long day of fix-ups around the house, I'm taking my daughter out for some pizza and a movie. No forum lurking for me.

Cheers

[Tarski]

E=mc2 Anyone?

Everyone has their Sacred cows.

Oh brother. You still think E=mc2 is invalidated? LOL

[Zakuska]

Oh brother. You still think E=mc2 is invalidated? LOL

Never said that it was invalidated, thus my thread title asked a question. "E=Mc2 invalidated?"

But check this out. How much these carbon 14 dates (elephant camel, bison) varried at a clovis dig site in just one dig and they had 3-4 reversals, (dates from millions of years, to 12,000 years ago, variances of over 10000 years) then check out how many mental gymnastics the "scientists" go through to try and sort things out and explain the discrepancies they found. Pay special attention to page 154.

The First American - The Suppressed Story of the People Who Discovered the New World, By Christopher Hardaker

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Edited October 9, 2011 by Zakuska

[Tarski]

Here's a recent horse bone find in Alaska... not sure if there is a carbon date yet.

Zak, why would you, of all people, be interested in the carbon dating? Might it not be off by a factor of a million due to some weird effect such what you were pointing to a while back?

If it is dated to BoM times, you would have to be highly skeptical wouldn't you? I mean, you can't have your cake and eat it too-- right?

Edited October 9, 2011 by Tarski

[shalamabobbi]

Zak, why would you, of all people, be interested in the carbon dating? Might it not be off by a factor of a million due to some weird effect such what you were pointing to a while back?

If it is dated to BoM times, you would have to be highly skeptical wouldn't you? I mean, you can't have your cake and eat it too-- right?

Zakuska accepts carbon dating. See his thread "Nova: Solomons Copper Mines", post #4

[why me]

There are some that say that the idea of a "Nephite horse" being a tapir is a joke. The following is a selection from Combined Dictionary–Concordance of the Yucatecan Mayan Language

I saw a documentary about the tapir recently and it was claimed that the tapir had horse chararcteristics. So, the comparison is not that far out. Unfortunately I didn't post the name of the documentary here. Now I have forgotten the name of the film.

Interestingly, I found this on the web:

http://animals.jrank.org/pages/3238/Odd-Toed-Ungulates-Perissodactyla-PHYSICAL-CHARACTERISTICS.html

Edited October 10, 2011 by why me

[Jesterss]

Radiocarbon dating of 340 years, plus or minus 40 years, puts the death of the horse sometime between 1625 and 1705, Mojado said. Therefore, the horses died at least 50 years before San Diego Mission de Alcala, the first of the California missions, was founded in 1769. The other horse and the burro were buried at the same level, suggesting that they were buried about the same time.

The bones of the horses and the donkey showed no signs of having been shod, an indicator that the horses were not brought by the Spanish, who fitted their horses with iron shoes, said Larry Tift, a researcher with Gallegos.

I already pointed out that Knights Templar's landed around 1362 in the America's. Near Cape Cod. There are carvings on multiple rocks and even an 8-legged (false windmill assertion) in New England area.

[Zakuska]

I already pointed out that Knights Templar's landed around 1362 in the America's. Near Cape Cod. There are carvings on multiple rocks and even an 8-legged (false windmill assertion) in New England area.

A little more on that:

In 1898, a Minnesota farmer clearing trees from his field uproots a large stone covered with mysterious runes. Now known as the Kensington Rune Stone, it details a journey of land acquisition and murder–in the year 1362. Thought by some to be a hoax, new evidence suggests it could be real, and a clue that the Knights Templar discovered America 100 years before Columbus, perhaps bringing with them history’s greatest treasure…The Holy Grail. See how symbols on the Rune Stone match Templar ruins all over Europe. History tells us the Templar were massacred on Friday the 13th, but that a Templar fleet allegedly containing treasure was last seen off Scotland in the late 1300s. Stones with similar markings as the Rune stone have been found on islands across the Atlantic Ocean, as well as in Massachusetts, and Rhode Island. Is it possible the Templar were leaving clues to an incredible journey to the New World?

http://steventill.co...ail-in-america/

You can wathc the 9 parts of the history special on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWHtFfJNZsk

Edited October 10, 2011 by Zakuska

[Jesterss]

Thank you. That's the one I was referencing. Was a fascinating show.

[Zakuska]

From the American Museum of Natural History RE: Horses...

Next of Kin

The only surviving branch of the horse family is the genus Equus, which includes zebras, asses and donkeys along with the horse. But which living animals outside the horse family are the horse's closest relatives? Hint: you won't find them on a farm.

Here's another hint: follow the feet. Horses belong to a group of mammals with an odd number of toes. That rules out mammals with two toes, or "cloven hooves," like goats, pigs, cows, deer and camels.

So who are the other odd-toed, plant-eating animals? Most members of this group, known as perissodactyls, are extinct. But several species survive at present. They include rhinoceroses and tapirs, the horse's closest living relatives.

http://www.amnh.org/...age=evolution_d

Edited October 11, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Thank you. That's the one I was referencing. Was a fascinating show.

Strand of Ancient Yarn Suggests Early European Presence in Canada

http://www.nytimes.c...nce/08VIKB.html

Edited October 11, 2011 by Zakuska