Elder Oaks Addresses All Christians In His Talk

[zerinus]

I kind of liked that. I wish more General Authorities would address their remarks to Christians as a whole, rather than just to Mormons. Get away from "us" and "them" attitude. It is all "us". The LDS Church is in a better position to provide moral and spiritual leadership to Christians as a whole, than a lot of their own "leaders" are. I think many Christians would be able to see, recognize, and appreciate that.

Of course, a prerequisite of that would be that Church leaders should educate themselves better with regard to Christian theology as a whole, and what Christians generally believe.

Here is a 1.2 minute clip form the opening remarks of his talk, showing how he addressed his remarks to all Christians, rather than just to Mormons:

https://skydrive.liv...61578FBD87A!163

His complete talk of course can be listened to here:

http://lds.org/general-conference/sessions/2011/10?lang=eng

What do you think?

Edited October 3, 2011 by zerinus

[Sky]

I think it’s a great idea in theory – the only problems I see are trying to get more non-LDS Christians to actually listen to the conference talks. It is enough of a challenge just to get Church members to tune into conference.

Also, some doctrines discussed in conference would be at odds with ‘mainstream’ Christianity, especially when Church leaders emphatically declare that we are the only true Church of Jesus Christ with the fullness of the Gospel and the proper Priesthood authority.

[altersteve]

I liked that a lot too. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Elder Oaks.

[zerinus]

I think it’s a great idea in theory –

Elder Oaks seemed to be able to pull it off!

the only problems I see are trying to get more non-LDS Christians to actually listen to the conference talks. It is enough of a challenge just to get Church members to tune into conference.

I think you would be surprised to know how many of them do actually listen to or watch those talks, in one form or another. I think some people think we must have an audience of millions for it to be worth the effort. I don't think so. As Jesus said, a small leaven can leaven the whole lump (Matthew 13:33).

Also, some doctrines discussed in conference would be at odds with ‘mainstream’ Christianity, especially when Church leaders emphatically declare that we are the only true Church of Jesus Christ with the fullness of the Gospel and the proper Priesthood authority.

I don't think that presents a problem either. Every church considers itself to be the right one, otherwise it would have no justification for existence.

[Sky]

For the record, I thought Elder Oaks gave a great talk!

[Cobalt-70]

I don't think that presents a problem either. Every church considers itself to be the right one, otherwise it would have no justification for existence.

Not in the way that Mormons do. For most Christians, there is a single worldwide Church, divided into several denominations. Each of the denominations reflects a particular tradition, and there are certainly strong differences of opinion. However, Christian churches do not, by and large, believe that you must join their particular organization as a prerequisite to being saved. (Mormons probably shouldn't be so certain of that idea, either, given the universalist and gnostic theology that characterized the late sermons of Joseph Smith.)

[zerinus]

Not in the way that Mormons do. For most Christians, there is a single worldwide Church, divided into several denominations. Each of the denominations reflects a particular tradition, and there are certainly strong differences of opinion. However, Christian churches do not, by and large, believe that you must join their particular organization as a prerequisite to being saved. (Mormons probably shouldn't be so certain of that idea, either, given the universalist and gnostic theology that characterized the late sermons of Joseph Smith.)

What I have observed from your posts so far is that your views are often so outlandish that they are not worth taking the time to reply.

[Storm Rider]

Not in the way that Mormons do. For most Christians, there is a single worldwide Church, divided into several denominations. Each of the denominations reflects a particular tradition, and there are certainly strong differences of opinion. However, Christian churches do not, by and large, believe that you must join their particular organization as a prerequisite to being saved. (Mormons probably shouldn't be so certain of that idea, either, given the universalist and gnostic theology that characterized the late sermons of Joseph Smith.)

You seem to have an agenda that is at odds with history and reality. Now when I see your name my eyes roll back in my head and I just overlook what you say. How about just add to this discussion without trying to convert people to your agenda?

[Gervin]

The problem for the Christian, as I see it, is accepting LDS teaching about Christ while outright rejecting the LDS-attributed words of Christ from the First Vision.

[zerinus]

The problem for the Christian, as I see it, is accepting LDS teaching about Christ while outright rejecting the LDS-attributed words of Christ from the First Vision.

That is where you are so wrong. They don't need to reject that at all.

[Gervin]

I don't see how a mainstream Christian would be open to LDS teachings about Christ when the very purported words of Christ in the First Vision condemn the Christian.

[zerinus]

I don't see how a mainstream Christian would be open to LDS teachings about Christ when the very purported words of Christ in the First Vision condemn the Christian.

They don't condemn the Christian. They condemn a very small segment of the Christian community who are characterized in modern scripture in these words:

1 Nephi 22:

22 And the righteous need not fear, for they are those who shall not be confounded. But it is the kingdom of the devil, which shall be built up among the children of men, which kingdom is established among them which are in the flesh—

23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.

D&C 10:

55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

56 But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center.

The Christian world is composed of two different classes of people, as expressed in these verses. The righteous and virtuous are in the majority. The corrupt and the wicked ones, characterized in the above verses as those who "build up churches unto themselves to get gain," or to "get power over the flesh," or to "become popular in the eyes of the world," or to "seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity" etc., are in the minority. The Lord's condemnation in the First Vision is directed at the wicked, who are the minority; not the righteous, who are the majority. The Restored gospel is not for the wicked--unless they repent. It is designed to save the righteous. It is for them that the message of the gospel is primarily addressed. They will be able to recognize it, and acknowledge it.

Edited October 4, 2011 by zerinus

[Deborah]

The problem for the Christian, as I see it, is accepting LDS teaching about Christ while outright rejecting the LDS-attributed words of Christ from the First Vision.

Really? Since so many of us are converts from these other churches that doesn't make sense at all. The general Christian world doesn't claim a "true church" only a belief in Christ and any church is ok (except the LDS church of course). It is in fact my study of the NT that made me question the church I had been attending.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm not so much concerned with the 'one true church' label. To each their own. Christ will know us by our faith.

I would encourage the General Authorities educate themselves better on ancient Christology and some of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. I'm personally a big fan of Origen's Contra Celsus, Irenaeus' Against Heresies and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho and his First Apology.

I'm starting to look more closely at Hippolytus' Refutation of All Heresies. What makes him fascinating to me is that he is considered to be the first antipope. This is what inspired me to first look at him.

[Gervin]

The Lord's condemnation in the First Vision is directed at the wicked, who are the minority; not the righteous, who are the majority.

I believe the Christian world sees the statements of the First Vision to be directed at the majority of believers of the day: join none of the churches because they are all wrong ... those professors are all corrupt ... if the wrong churches and corrupt leaders were a small minority then I think I would expect to see the words of Christ acknowledging that to some degree.

[thesometimesaint]

Probably much more familiar than you think. It is one thing to know and understand the ECF and quite another to agree with them on doctrinal points.

[Gervin]

Really? Since so many of us are converts from these other churches that doesn't make sense at all. The general Christian world doesn't claim a "true church" only a belief in Christ and any church is ok (except the LDS church of course). It is in fact my study of the NT that made me question the church I had been attending.

It doesn't make sense b/c you believe that Christ condemned the Christian world in the First Vision. BTW, I don't believe that the general Christian world believes that any church is ok. That sounds like a convenient generalization.

[Damien the Leper]

Probably much more familiar than you think. It is one thing to know and understand the ECF and quite another to agree with them on doctrinal points.

I completely agree. I have a hard time with Athanasius of Alexandria most....well, at least until someone else takes his place. His Creed just drives me crazy.

[Deborah]

It doesn't make sense b/c you believe that Christ condemned the Christian world in the First Vision. BTW, I don't believe that the general Christian world believes that any church is ok. That sounds like a convenient generalization.

No Christ did not condemn Christian world. He talked about the change in his teachings from the original meaning, which thing was an abomination. Considering that at the time everyone was part of the so-called Christian world it's a wonder anyone joined the church according to you. It is not a generalization. I was a member of that Christian world for many years and after I was LDS continued to associate for 10 years with the Methodist singles program, which accepted all denominations. A person didn't get a testimony of his church except as a place which he feels most comfortable. The testimony was always centered around Christ.

[zerinus]

I believe the Christian world sees the statements of the First Vision to be directed at the majority of believers of the day: join none of the churches because they are all wrong ... those professors are all corrupt ... if the wrong churches and corrupt leaders were a small minority then I think I would expect to see the words of Christ acknowledging that to some degree.

I am sure what you are seeing it wrong. Read my post again, and you will understand whom the Lord was referring to in the First Vision.

Edited October 4, 2011 by zerinus

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

You wrote:

I don't think that presents a problem either. Every church considers itself to be the right one, otherwise it would have no justification for existence.

That is a mistaken notion. Most if not all evangelical churches and denominations reject the idea that there is only one true denomination or one true Christian organization.

[frankenstein]

I kind of liked that. I wish more General Authorities would address their remarks to Christians as a whole, rather than just to Mormons. Get away from "us" and "them" attitude. It is all "us". The LDS Church is in a better position to provide moral and spiritual leadership to Christians as a whole, than a lot of their own "leaders" are. I think many Christians would be able to see, recognize, and appreciate that.

Of course, a prerequisite of that would be that Church leaders should educate themselves better with regard to Christian theology as a whole, and what Christians generally believe.

Here is a 1.2 minute clip form the opening remarks of his talk, showing how he addressed his remarks to all Christians, rather than just to Mormons:

What do you think?

I think it is good for the speakers to address as many people's by name as possible. I like how in that latest CES talk of Elder Oaks, he spent the majority of the talk speaking to "believers" and he seemed to qualify believers as all those who believe in a God and are taught within their religion certain tenants that are common to most religions.

[KevinG]

Of course Joseph was trending on Universalist. He knew we were going to Baptise all of them eventually, living or dead.

[KevinG]

And speaking of excellent talks by Elder Oaks that touch on the idea of our Christianity...

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0%2C5232%2C23-1-26-23%2CFF.html

[zerinus]

That is a mistaken notion. Most if not all evangelical churches and denominations reject the idea that there is only one true denomination or one true Christian organization.

You mean except themselves! That has not been my experience in interacting with other churches and/or Christians. Some years ago I chanced to go inside a Baptist Church in the area where I live. That is one of my hobbies. I enjoy walking into other churches and looking around! Anyways, I went into this church, and found a young lady there who appeared to be one of their activists, and struck a conversation. In the course of the conversation I happened to mention another Evangelical church in a different part of the town whose practices were a little bit different from theirs. She promptly replied, without a moment's hesitation, "We think they are not Christians!" Well, if they are not "Christians," then they can't be "saved," can they. This is nothing new of course. Joseph Smith had the same experience. He recalled:

JS-H 1:

5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, "Lo, here!" and others, "Lo, there!" Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.

6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.

The history of the Protestant movement in fact is littered with the dead bodies of churches who have been slain with each others' swords, each contending that they are the right one, and none of the others are. They even fought wars over the issue. And of course, they all fought against the Catholic Church, and called it the church of the devil. So don't give me any of this nonsense about it not making any difference which church you join. The real truth is that they don't care who is "saved" and who isn't. The only thing that they really care about is who joins their respective churches and who doesn't. It is like commercial companies competing with each other to get people to buy their products. The more people join their churches, the more power, influence, and money they get. That is what really motivates them. Your "salvation" is the last thing that they have in mind.