The Celestial Kingdom Will Be Earth?

[orion88]

At http://institute.lds...sp-31-37-37.asp,

the last several bullet points say,

"God has said if we will honor Him and keep His commandments—if we will

observe His laws He will fight our battles and destroy the wicked, and when

the time comes He will come down in heaven—not from heaven—but He

will bring heaven with Him—and this earth upon which we dwell, will be the

celestial kingdom” (George Albert Smith, in Conference Report, Oct. 1942, 49)."

and

"In that great change, or resurrection, which shall come to this earth, it shall be

sanctified, celestialized and made a fit abode even for God the Father, who

shall grace it with his presence. (D.C. 88:19.) Then shall the righteous, those

who have become sanctified through the law of God, possess it for ever as their

abode. This earth is destined to become the everlasting residence of its inhabitants

who gain the glory of the celestial kingdom. It shall become in that day like the

throne of God and shall shine forth with all the splendor and brightness of

celestial glory in its eternal, sanctified and glorious state” (Smith, Way to

Perfection, 351).

Do these two passages imply that Heavenly Father will reside on the earth?

Why does it say earth will be the celestial kingdom instead of a celestial

kingdom?

Where would the terrestrial and telestial inhabitants reside?

Thanks,

Tony

[Rob Osborn]

At that time when the earth is made into the celestial kingdom, all of the saved inhabitants of the earth will reside here. Only two places will exist- the celestial kingdom and outer darkness. Read in Revelations about this- all of the names of the saved will walk within the holy city (celestial kingdom on this earth) while those whose names are not found written will have no entrance to the city and will be cast into outer darkness.

Read in section 76 where Christ will work until he has perfected the kingdom (inhabitants of the earth) and then presents it spotless to the father where then it will be crowned with celestial glory.

Where will the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants reside?

[no temple content]

[zerinus]

At http://institute.lds...sp-31-37-37.asp,

the last several bullet points say,

"God has said if we will honor Him and keep His commandments—if we will

observe His laws He will fight our battles and destroy the wicked, and when

the time comes He will come down in heaven—not from heaven—but He

will bring heaven with Him—and this earth upon which we dwell, will be the

celestial kingdom” (George Albert Smith, in Conference Report, Oct. 1942, 49)."

and

"In that great change, or resurrection, which shall come to this earth, it shall be

sanctified, celestialized and made a fit abode even for God the Father, who

shall grace it with his presence. (D.C. 88:19.) Then shall the righteous, those

who have become sanctified through the law of God, possess it for ever as their

abode. This earth is destined to become the everlasting residence of its inhabitants

who gain the glory of the celestial kingdom. It shall become in that day like the

throne of God and shall shine forth with all the splendor and brightness of

celestial glory in its eternal, sanctified and glorious state” (Smith, Way to

Perfection, 351).

Do these two passages imply that Heavenly Father will reside on the earth?

No.

Why does it say earth will be the celestial kingdom instead of a celestial kingdom?

Probably just an inaccurate wording. The celestial kingdom is bigger than this earth.

Where would the terrestrial and telestial inhabitants reside?

D&C 76:

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

91 And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

[Ahab]

At http://institute.lds...sp-31-37-37.asp,

the last several bullet points say,

"God has said if we will honor Him and keep His commandments—if we will

observe His laws He will fight our battles and destroy the wicked, and when

the time comes He will come down in heaven—not from heaven—but He

will bring heaven with Him—and this earth upon which we dwell, will be the

celestial kingdom” (George Albert Smith, in Conference Report, Oct. 1942, 49)."

and

"In that great change, or resurrection, which shall come to this earth, it shall be

sanctified, celestialized and made a fit abode even for God the Father, who

shall grace it with his presence. (D.C. 88:19.) Then shall the righteous, those

who have become sanctified through the law of God, possess it for ever as their

abode. This earth is destined to become the everlasting residence of its inhabitants

who gain the glory of the celestial kingdom. It shall become in that day like the

throne of God and shall shine forth with all the splendor and brightness of

celestial glory in its eternal, sanctified and glorious state” (Smith, Way to

Perfection, 351).

Do these two passages imply that Heavenly Father will reside on the earth?

Try reading what the scriptures actually say rather than trying to figure out what you think they might "imply".

This Earth will someday become "a fit abode" for our Father in heaven, and that doesn't mean this is the only place he will be able to live, or that he doesn't live somewhere right now. The kingdom of heaven consists of more than one planet, and all 3 of the orders or kingdoms of heaven consist of worlds without end.

Why does it say earth will be the celestial kingdom instead of a celestial kingdom?

Because it isn't as if there is more than one celestial kingdom of heaven.

Where would the terrestrial and telestial inhabitants reside?

On some planet within those orders or degrees of heaven.

Did you really thnk our Father in heaven would have them just float around in space in their resurrected bodies after he kicks them off of this planet?

[Ahab]

At that time when the earth is made into the celestial kingdom, all of the saved inhabitants of the earth will reside here.

If by saved you mean what we usually refer to as "exalted", you are correct, but understand that those who merit the Terrestrial or Telestial orders of heaven will also be saved to some extent.

Only two places will exist- the celestial kingdom and outer darkness.

That is false.

Read in Revelations about this- all of the names of the saved will walk within the holy city (celestial kingdom on this earth) while those whose names are not found written will have no entrance to the city and will be cast into outer darkness.

Try reading some of our other revelations from God where he explains more about heaven and h*** and outer darkness, etc... and while asking the Holy Spirit to help you understand.

Read in section 76 where Christ will work until he has perfected the kingdom (inhabitants of the earth) and then presents it spotless to the father where then it will be crowned with celestial glory.

That's true, but that doesn't mean there will be no place for Telestial and Terrestrial inhabitants to live after this Earth becomes a celestial world and they're not fit to live here anymore.

All of us who have ever been mortal will someday be resurrected, and all will continue living someplace within all of heaven except for those who will be cast into outer darkness with Satan and his disciples where even they will continue to live somewhere.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Ahab

[Questing Beast]

At that time when the earth is made into the celestial kingdom, all of the saved inhabitants of the earth will reside here. Only two places will exist- the celestial kingdom and outer darkness. Read in Revelations about this- all of the names of the saved will walk within the holy city (celestial kingdom on this earth) while those whose names are not found written will have no entrance to the city and will be cast into outer darkness.

Read in section 76 where Christ will work until he has perfected the kingdom (inhabitants of the earth) and then presents it spotless to the father where then it will be crowned with celestial glory.

Where will the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants reside?

[no temple content]

That is not what the Church teaches. So your interpretation is false doctrine as far as the Church is concerned....

[Rob Osborn]

Believe what you will but I personally believe the truth that is taught that this earth right now is the telestial kingdom. In the end, all of the saved will reside together on the same sphere

[Rob Osborn]

Oh, BTW,

The temple content I provided is common knowledge given at any temple open house. Just so people know.

[Sevenbak]

At http://institute.lds...sp-31-37-37.asp,

the last several bullet points say,

"God has said if we will honor Him and keep His commandments—if we will

observe His laws He will fight our battles and destroy the wicked, and when

the time comes He will come down in heaven—not from heaven—but He

will bring heaven with Him—and this earth upon which we dwell, will be the

celestial kingdom” (George Albert Smith, in Conference Report, Oct. 1942, 49)."

and

"In that great change, or resurrection, which shall come to this earth, it shall be

sanctified, celestialized and made a fit abode even for God the Father, who

shall grace it with his presence. (D.C. 88:19.) Then shall the righteous, those

who have become sanctified through the law of God, possess it for ever as their

abode. This earth is destined to become the everlasting residence of its inhabitants

who gain the glory of the celestial kingdom. It shall become in that day like the

throne of God and shall shine forth with all the splendor and brightness of

celestial glory in its eternal, sanctified and glorious state” (Smith, Way to

Perfection, 351).

Do these two passages imply that Heavenly Father will reside on the earth?

Why does it say earth will be the celestial kingdom instead of a celestial

kingdom?

Where would the terrestrial and telestial inhabitants reside?

Thanks,

Tony

Yes, that's how I understand it to be, and these aren't the only references either.

It gives added meaning to the Savior's Sermon on the Mount. The meek WILL inherit the earth!

[Ahab]

Believe what you will but I personally believe the truth that is taught that this earth right now is the telestial kingdom. In the end, all of the saved will reside together on the same sphere

You seem to be ignoring section 76 which describes the Telestial glory, as well as the fact that there are more planets with more of our Father's children.

Do you really think all of us on this Earth are the only children our Father in heaven has?

[Rob Osborn]

You seem to be ignoring section 76 which describes the Telestial glory, as well as the fact that there are more planets with more of our Father's children.

Do you really think all of us on this Earth are the only children our Father in heaven has?

Section 76 has it's issues if not properly understood. Speaking of the telestial, don't you find this strange-

In verse 103-

These are ^athey who are ^bliars, and ^csorcerers, and ^dadulterers, and ^ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:103)

This verse is speaking directly of the sons of perdition. Reference to this verse is in two places. Here-

But the fearful, and ^aunbelieving, and the abominable, and ^bmurderers, and ^cwhoremongers, and ^dsorcerers, and idolaters, and all ^eliars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the ^fsecond ^gdeath.

(New Testament | Revelation 21:8)

and here-

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the ^afearful, and the ^bunbelieving, and all ^cliars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the ^dwhoremonger, and the ^esorcerer, shall have their part in that ^flake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the ^gsecond death.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 63:17)

Only the sons of perdition have a part in the second death. So, I ask, why are the sons of perdition found in the telestial kingdom? Compare that group to these also found in the telestial kingdom-

99 For these are they who are of ^aPaul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:99)

This group is in direct reference to the saints in NT times that Paul was speaking to. He referenced them as saints and belonging to Christ. How do you explain that? Neither of these verses from section 76 makes any sense whatsoever unless one recognizes that the telestial kingdom seen in vision as recorded in section 76 is in direct reference to our earth right now. On our earth- the telestial kingdom, we have both "saints" and "sons of perdition". Thus it makes sense why it speaks of both saints and sons of perdition when the vision of section 76 is recorded. Read the book of Revelations very carefully. It speaks of our planet as being the place where "all" of the saved go.

[Ahab]

Section 76 has it's issues if not properly understood. Speaking of the telestial, don't you find this strange-

In verse 103-

These are ^athey who are ^bliars, and ^csorcerers, and ^dadulterers, and ^ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:103)

This verse is speaking directly of the sons of perdition. Reference to this verse is in two places. Here-

But the fearful, and ^aunbelieving, and the abominable, and ^bmurderers, and ^cwhoremongers, and ^dsorcerers, and idolaters, and all ^eliars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the ^fsecond ^gdeath.

(New Testament | Revelation 21:8)

and here-

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the ^afearful, and the ^bunbelieving, and all ^cliars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the ^dwhoremonger, and the ^esorcerer, shall have their part in that ^flake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the ^gsecond death.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 63:17)

Only the sons of perdition have a part in the second death. So, I ask, why are the sons of perdition found in the telestial kingdom? Compare that group to these also found in the telestial kingdom-

99 For these are they who are of ^aPaul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:99)

This group is in direct reference to the saints in NT times that Paul was speaking to. He referenced them as saints and belonging to Christ. How do you explain that? Neither of these verses from section 76 makes any sense whatsoever unless one recognizes that the telestial kingdom seen in vision as recorded in section 76 is in direct reference to our earth right now. On our earth- the telestial kingdom, we have both "saints" and "sons of perdition". Thus it makes sense why it speaks of both saints and sons of perdition when the vision of section 76 is recorded. Read the book of Revelations very carefully. It speaks of our planet as being the place where "all" of the saved go.

Maybe a few details will help you to see where you are going off on a wrong tangent.

1) All who accept Jesus as their Savior will be saved, to some extent, and the extent to which we will be saved is equal to the degree we accept the testimony of Jesus and obey his commandments, including receving the ordinances which are necessary for exaltation, and repenting when we believe we should.

2) Some of us on this planet won't EVER accept the gospel or live by its terms, and those of us who fit that category will be sent into outer darkness to stay there forever because they are intentionally rebelling against our Lord and his commandments even though they know what they should do to be saved.

3) Some of us on this planet will accept only some of the gospel and live by only some of its terms, and thus accept only a portion of what they could have had had they accepted as much as they could have had. They still accept our Lord as their Lord and Savior, however, even though only partially, and thus they will be saved from the second death even though they may experience some of h*** for a while.

Now at this point you should ask yourself (and God) if you think God will hold back those who are worthy of more blessings, because they accept more of the gospel and better conform their lives to it.

In your imagined scenario, as I understand it, this Earth will not be glorified to become a celestial world in the celestial region of heaven until all who have ever lived here are either ready for the big change at the same time or they will have shown that they're not worthy of being saved to any degree and thus they will be sent into outer darkness, and not only do I not see any support for that idea, but it also contradicts what has been revealed.

Or do you mean to say that all 3 classes of glory will be represented here on the new (or restored) Earth just as they are now, only to the full degree of their glory instead of only a portion of it?

[Cobalt-70]

Section 76 has it's issues if not properly understood. Speaking of the telestial, don't you find this strange-

In verse 103-

These are ^athey who are ^bliars, and ^csorcerers, and ^dadulterers, and ^ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:103)

This verse is speaking directly of the sons of perdition. Reference to this verse is in two places. Here-

But the fearful, and ^aunbelieving, and the abominable, and ^bmurderers, and ^cwhoremongers, and ^dsorcerers, and idolaters, and all ^eliars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the ^fsecond ^gdeath.

(New Testament | Revelation 21:8)

and here-

17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the ^afearful, and the ^bunbelieving, and all ^cliars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the ^dwhoremonger, and the ^esorcerer, shall have their part in that ^flake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the ^gsecond death.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 63:17)

Only the sons of perdition have a part in the second death. So, I ask, why are the sons of perdition found in the telestial kingdom? Compare that group to these also found in the telestial kingdom-

99 For these are they who are of ^aPaul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:99)

This group is in direct reference to the saints in NT times that Paul was speaking to. He referenced them as saints and belonging to Christ. How do you explain that? Neither of these verses from section 76 makes any sense whatsoever unless one recognizes that the telestial kingdom seen in vision as recorded in section 76 is in direct reference to our earth right now. On our earth- the telestial kingdom, we have both "saints" and "sons of perdition". Thus it makes sense why it speaks of both saints and sons of perdition when the vision of section 76 is recorded. Read the book of Revelations very carefully. It speaks of our planet as being the place where "all" of the saved go.

Rob,

There are a lot of ways you could conceivably synthesize the Book of Revelation with D&C 63 and 76. In the early 20th century, theologians like Talmage, Roberts, and Widtsoe came up with what is now the Correlation formula taught in church publications. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, but it's not the standard 20th-21st century synthesis.

I think that whenever you think about the Mormon doctrine of salvation/damnation, you have to realize that this doctrine evolved over time. What's in Revelation and in the Book of Mormon is basically standard bipolar Protestant doctrine of salvation vs. damnation to a lake of fire and brimstone. Though the Book of Mormon explicitly condemned universalism, it didn't take long (March 1830, in fact) for universalism to start making its way into Mormon theology. In D&C 19, Smith revealed that "eternal punishment" is only eternal in the sense that it is the punishment of an eternal God, leaving open the idea that such punishment may not be permanent. In D&C 76, Smith elaborated this idea, stating that even the wicked are ultimately admitted to heaven after first being cast into h***, emerging in heaven where they will be rewarded in proportion to their faith and works. The sons of perdition, "the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power," were on the other hand to eternally punished. Smith did not say that they would be punished forever, only that they have an "eternal" punishment (compare D&C 19) and that nobody knows the end of that punishment (v. 45), perhaps suggesting that there may in fact be an end to punishment of even the sons of perdition.

All of this was, in my view, essentially superseded by Smith's more gnostic teachings in the 1840s just before his death. He replaced the idea of salvation (which loses meaning anyway if everyone is saved) with the idea of eternal progression--the doctrine that the only difference between God and humans is that God is more advanced, and that humans advance to godhood by acquiring "light and knowledge."

Smith seems to have found significant the statement of Jesus that in the heavenly kingdom there are many mansions, and he also envisioned many inhabited worlds. Therefore, under either the 1830s "salvation" model or the 1840s "exaltation" model, Smith perhaps envisioned the glorified earth as one of many places for such mansions. If the glorified earth is called "celestial," then you could think of the earth as a home for the elite of God's children--the "noble and great ones." It would be the Beverly Hills of heaven. Ultimately, I think that most Mormons believe that the earth is not their final resting place, but that the celestials will branch out to create and inhabit their own worlds.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob,

There are a lot of ways you could conceivably synthesize the Book of Revelation with D&C 63 and 76. In the early 20th century, theologians like Talmage, Roberts, and Widtsoe came up with what is now the Correlation formula taught in church publications. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, but it's not the standard 20th-21st century synthesis.

I think that whenever you think about the Mormon doctrine of salvation/damnation, you have to realize that this doctrine evolved over time. What's in Revelation and in the Book of Mormon is basically standard bipolar Protestant doctrine of salvation vs. damnation to a lake of fire and brimstone. Though the Book of Mormon explicitly condemned universalism, it didn't take long (March 1830, in fact) for universalism to start making its way into Mormon theology. In D&C 19, Smith revealed that "eternal punishment" is only eternal in the sense that it is the punishment of an eternal God, leaving open the idea that such punishment may not be permanent. In D&C 76, Smith elaborated this idea, stating that even the wicked are ultimately admitted to heaven after first being cast into h***, emerging in heaven where they will be rewarded in proportion to their faith and works. The sons of perdition, "the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power," were on the other hand to eternally punished. Smith did not say that they would be punished forever, only that they have an "eternal" punishment (compare D&C 19) and that nobody knows the end of that punishment (v. 45), perhaps suggesting that there may in fact be an end to punishment of even the sons of perdition.

All of this was, in my view, essentially superseded by Smith's more gnostic teachings in the 1840s just before his death. He replaced the idea of salvation (which loses meaning anyway if everyone is saved) with the idea of eternal progression--the doctrine that the only difference between God and humans is that God is more advanced, and that humans advance to godhood by acquiring "light and knowledge."

Smith seems to have found significant the statement of Jesus that in the heavenly kingdom there are many mansions, and he also envisioned many inhabited worlds. Therefore, under either the 1830s "salvation" model or the 1840s "exaltation" model, Smith perhaps envisioned the glorified earth as one of many places for such mansions. If the glorified earth is called "celestial," then you could think of the earth as a home for the elite of God's children--the "noble and great ones." It would be the Beverly Hills of heaven. Ultimately, I think that most Mormons believe that the earth is not their final resting place, but that the celestials will branch out to create and inhabit their own worlds.

The slavation/ damnation dichotomy is exactly the "gospel of Jesus Christ". That is the doctrine that we must evolve our interpretations into. The scriptures are quite specific in relaying God's word about this dichotomy of either saved on the right hand of God or being cast aside. Of upmost importance to this work is the doctrine of Christ as explained from his lips himself about his doctrine- either accepting him and repenting and being baptized or remaining in a state of condemnation that if left in that state will cause one to be found on the left hand and cast aside. Also of upmost importnace is that this dichotomy has to be this way because in the end you can't have fence sitters- those who still sin a little but are mostly good. Christ has said that a man cannot serve two masters. What we often fail to overlook is the great work of salvation done in the millennium. This is a perfecting stage where all of those Christ saves are working towards that perfection stage- where they can be saved from all their sins and return to Hevaenly Father's presence. The work of Christ will continue in the millennium until he has finished all the work and presents all of us to the Father spotless. This means that he is going to present to the Father all those he saves. All those he saves are everyone except the sons of perdition. So, if Christ perfects everyone except for the sons of perdition, are they all not made spotless through the same and exact same principles and ordinances of his gospel? Of note here is that at this point, no one besides the sons of perdition are unclean. Being unclean is all that keeps us from being in the Fathers presence- returning to him.

This is the exact reason why the teachings of Christ lead ultimately to the realization that the gospel very much is a strict dichotomy of either saved into the kingdom og heaven or being damned into outer darkness. There is no other fate for all of mankind- Read the parable of the wheat and the tares as found in the NT. Then read the followup as found in the D&C sections 86 & 101. IN 101 you will note that all of the wheat are those whom Christ saves- every last one. They are all stored in the garners to be given eternal life and be crowned with celestial glory while all the rest- the tares, are bundled together and burned. This is in reference to being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is reserved for the sons of perdition. Of note with this parable is that it is a very strict dichotomy of either receiving eternal life in the celestial kingdom or being cast into outer darkness. This teaching of the parable- spanning from Christ's time itno Joseph's day, teaches us that the gospel is a strict heaven/ h*** dichotomy and that heaven as the place of salvation is referenced as only the "celestial kingdom". This fits in exactly with the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the scriptures.

[Rob Osborn]

Maybe a few details will help you to see where you are going off on a wrong tangent.

1) All who accept Jesus as their Savior will be saved, to some extent, and the extent to which we will be saved is equal to the degree we accept the testimony of Jesus and obey his commandments, including receving the ordinances which are necessary for exaltation, and repenting when we believe we should.

All those who accept Christ in order to be saved will have to accept the gospel and show obedience to those saving principles and ordinances of the which include repentance from "all sins", faith in Jesus Christ, baptism, and all other ordinances of the temple necessary for salvation. There is only one road leading to salvation from sin.

2) Some of us on this planet won't EVER accept the gospel or live by its terms, and those of us who fit that category will be sent into outer darkness to stay there forever because they are intentionally rebelling against our Lord and his commandments even though they know what they should do to be saved.

I agree

3) Some of us on this planet will accept only some of the gospel and live by only some of its terms, and thus accept only a portion of what they could have had had they accepted as much as they could have had. They still accept our Lord as their Lord and Savior, however, even though only partially, and thus they will be saved from the second death even though they may experience some of h*** for a while.

I disagree. In orde rfor man to be saved from h*** eternally he must repent of "all" of his sins. The gospel isn't a doctrine where people can get to a point and plateau- remain stagnate at that level. The gospel is designed where each step leads directly into the next step. All of God' principles and commandments are made in such a way that obedience to them leads directly into godliness and eventual perfection

.

Now at this point you should ask yourself (and God) if you think God will hold back those who are worthy of more blessings, because they accept more of the gospel and better conform their lives to it.

I believe that there will be differing degrees of glory (light and knowledge of things pertaining to godliness) with the kingdom of heaven, I just don't believe that those differing degrees will be separte physical planets.

In your imagined scenario, as I understand it, this Earth will not be glorified to become a celestial world in the celestial region of heaven until all who have ever lived here are either ready for the big change at the same time or they will have shown that they're not worthy of being saved to any degree and thus they will be sent into outer darkness, and not only do I not see any support for that idea, but it also contradicts what has been revealed.

On the contrary, the gospel of Christ teaches us that Christ himself will come and reign during the millennium until he perfects and saves all but the sons of perdition. The gospel teaches us that Christ presents the entire population of the savable "spotless" as the "kingdom" to be saved and be crowned with glory.

Or do you mean to say that all 3 classes of glory will be represented here on the new (or restored) Earth just as they are now, only to the full degree of their glory instead of only a portion of it?

This earth will be the place where all the saved go. Of course there will be different degrees of glory, but eventually, all will be perfected to the same glory as God himself. That is just the nature of the gospel and the nature of all those who are saved.

[Ahab]

All those who accept Christ in order to be saved will have to accept the gospel and show obedience to those saving principles and ordinances of the which include repentance from "all sins", faith in Jesus Christ, baptism, and all other ordinances of the temple necessary for salvation. There is only one road leading to salvation from sin.

So you think people who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and repent from only some of their sins, instead of all their sins, will be sent into outer darkness and stay there forever?

What if you don't repent from every one of your sins, Rob?

What if there is something you do which you know you shouldn't do and you try to repent from it but you're just not quite successful in totally repenting from that one sin?

You do realize sin is anything you do which God doesn't want you to do, don't you? Either that or not doing something you don't do which you know you should do.

If you really believe you have to be totally free from sin to avoid being sent to outer darkness forever, and all it takes is one sin you don't repent of to end up going there, I've got news for you, buddy.

You've got a very tough road ahead of you to make it to that level of perfection while you are on this Earth, even if you do have until the resurrection to make it to that point.

Thankfully, God has other places in mind for those who won't be worthy of the celestial glory where they will still get credit for becoming somewhat good people, even though not totally perfect.

[Rob Osborn]

So you think people who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and repent from only some of their sins, instead of all their sins, will be sent into outer darkness and stay there forever?

What if you don't repent from every one of your sins, Rob?

What if there is something you do which you know you shouldn't do and you try to repent from it but you're just not quite successful in totally repenting from that one sin?

You do realize sin is anything you do which God doesn't want you to do, don't you? Either that or not doing something you don't do which you know you should do.

If you really believe you have to be totally free from sin to avoid being sent to outer darkness forever, and all it takes is one sin you don't repent of to end up going there, I've got news for you, buddy.

You've got a very tough road ahead of you to make it to that level of perfection while you are on this Earth, even if you do have until the resurrection to make it to that point.

Thankfully, God has other places in mind for those who won't be worthy of the celestial glory where they will still get credit for becoming somewhat good people, even though not totally perfect.

The scriptures state that Christ makes the kingdom "spotless". It says he cleanses all. Spotless means "without sin". People won't be saved "in their sins" but rather "from their sins". After the millennium at the great judgment day all those who are saved are cleansed from all their sin, otherwise the scriptures lie and Christ really doesn't cleanse the world of all unrighteousness.

[zerinus]

The scriptures state that Christ makes the kingdom "spotless". It says he cleanses all. Spotless means "without sin". People won't be saved "in their sins" but rather "from their sins". After the millennium at the great judgment day all those who are saved are cleansed from all their sin, otherwise the scriptures lie and Christ really doesn't cleanse the world of all unrighteousness.

It appears that you haven’t understood the obvious meaning of D&C 76:

.

81 And again, we saw the

glory

of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received

not

the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who

deny not

the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are

thrust down to h***

[for a limited period of time].

85 These are they who shall

not

be redeemed from the devil

until

the last resurrection,

until

the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world,

but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them;

for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the

glory

of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

* * *

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who

suffer the wrath of God on earth

.

105 These are they who

suffer the vengeance of eternal fire

.

106 These are they who are

cast down to h***

and suffer the wrath of Almighty God,

until

the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107

When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless,

saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the

glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world,

that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying:

These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For

they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be

servants of the Most High;

but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Those who end up in the telestial kingdom will have had a wide range of backgrounds, some of whom will have committed serious sins—short of committing the unpardonable sin. Those who have committed serious sins will pass through heII for a period of time to pay for their sins; but they will not stay there forever. After they have paid the penalty of their sins they will be redeemed (D&C 76:85), for they are heirs of salvation (D&C 76:88). The kingdom will indeed by “cleansed” and made “pure” etc; and those sinners will obtain it by paying a heavy price, by passing through heII for a time until they repent (D&C 138:59). The telestial kingdom is still a kingdom of glory, whereas those who suffer the wrath of God forever enter into a kingdom which is not a “kingdom of glory” (D&C 88:24).

Edited September 20, 2011 by zerinus

[BookofMormonLuvr]

My current personal belief is that both the Celestial and Terrestrial glories will be upon this Earth- though I am still pondering the issue in my spare time.

[LeSellers]

Both John and Joseph tell us that the earth will become a sea of glass or a Urim and a Thummin for those who reside on it. This makes me believe that only those who merit the Celstial will live hereon. Whether this includes those who are celestial, but who are not exalted, I have not way of telling. Others will go elsewhere, but where that is/will be has not been revealed as yet.

We all know that during the millenniuim, there will be people who will live the terrestrial law as well as those who will live the celestial. The article of Faith the tells us that"the Earth will be renewed and receive its paradisaical glory" is talking about the millennium, not the final state of its existence, so we cannot apply that scripture to this question.

Lehi

Edited September 20, 2011 by LeSellers

[BookofMormonLuvr]

My current belief is based on...

Rev22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

- dreams that me and my wife have had

- and the fact that the Terrestrial Kingdom is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ

I believe the Celestial Glory is the Holy City, New Jerusalem, and only those worthy can enter and dwell therein. I believe that without its walls is Terrestrial Glory. I believe those of the Holy City will reign over the inhabitants of the Terrestrial Glory. Perhaps through the passage of time those of the Terrestrial will eventually become worthy to enter the gates- I haven't pondered that much.

[Ahab]

Both John and Joseph tell us that the earth will become a sea of glass or a Urim and a Thummin for those who reside on it. This makes me believe that only those who merit the Celestial will live hereon. Whether this includes those who are celestial, but who are not exalted, I have no way of telling. Others will go elsewhere, but where that is/will be has not been revealed as yet.

Rob is saying they'll be going into outer darkness if they're not worthy to remain here when this becomes a celestial planet, and he's trying to support his idea with some scriptures which he thinks he correctly understands.

Hopefully whoever is wrong in proclaiming false doctrine will someday repent before it's too late, because as far as I know proclaiming false doctrine is a sin and we must repent from every sin to be able to live here when this becomes a celestial world.

We all know that during the millenniuim, there will be people who will live the terrestrial law as well as those who will live the celestial.

Yep, but when this world becomes a celestial world only those who can abide a celestial glory will be able to stay here.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob is saying they'll be going into outer darkness if they're not worthy to remain here when this becomes a celestial planet, and he's trying to support his idea with some scriptures which he thinks he correctly understands.

Hopefully whoever is wrong in proclaiming false doctrine will someday repent before it's too late, because as far as I know proclaiming false doctrine is a sin and we must repent from every sin to be able to live here when this becomes a celestial world.

Yep, but when this world becomes a celestial world only those who can abide a celestial glory will be able to stay here.

Can you not see the basic logic of this? What exactly are terrestrial folks doing on the earth for the thousand year reign with Christ? Are some not the very ones who repented and have accepted the gospel in the spirit world? So, if they have become members of his church and are reigning with Christ, isn't it logical to assume that these very souls are some of them who Christ is perfecting and presenting as part of the kingdom to the Father?

Ther eis no need for me to repent. My view of heaven is in line with the scriptures.

[Rob Osborn]

It appears that you haven’t understood the obvious meaning of D&C 76:

.

81 And again, we saw the

glory

of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received

not

the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who

deny not

the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are

thrust down to h***

[for a limited period of time].

85 These are they who shall

not

be redeemed from the devil

until

the last resurrection,

until

the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world,

but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them;

for they shall be heirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the

glory

of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

* * *

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who

suffer the wrath of God on earth

.

105 These are they who

suffer the vengeance of eternal fire

.

106 These are they who are

cast down to h***

and suffer the wrath of Almighty God,

until

the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107

When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless,

saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the

glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world,

that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying:

These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For

they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be

servants of the Most High;

but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Those who end up in the telestial kingdom will have had a wide range of backgrounds, some of whom will have committed serious sins—short of committing the unpardonable sin. Those who have committed serious sins will pass through heII for a period of time to pay for their sins; but they will not stay there forever. After they have paid the penalty of their sins they will be redeemed (D&C 76:85), for they are heirs of salvation (D&C 76:88). The kingdom will indeed by “cleansed” and made “pure” etc; and those sinners will obtain it by paying a heavy price, by passing through heII for a time until they repent (D&C 138:59). The telestial kingdom is still a kingdom of glory, whereas those who suffer the wrath of God forever enter into a kingdom which is not a “kingdom of glory” (D&C 88:24).

The issue I have is that we currently live in "the telestial kingdom". So if we already live in this kingdom, how are we to know that Joseph just wasn't seeing a vision of our earth? Why would the telestial kingdom contain both sons of perdition (D&C 76:103) and saints who are Christs (D&C 76:99)?

[zerinus]

The issue I have is that we currently live in "the telestial kingdom". So if we already live in this kingdom, how are we to know that Joseph just wasn't seeing a vision of our earth? Why would the telestial kingdom contain both sons of perdition (D&C 76:103) and saints who are Christs (D&C 76:99)?

It is a mistake to describe the world in which we now live as the "telestial kingdom". It is not. It is a world in which people of all dispositions (celestial, terrestrial, telestial, and SOPs) are currently living together, and being tested to prove which one of those kingdoms they will be worthy to receive. The glory enjoyed by the world we live in today may be equivalent to a telestial glory; but that does not mean that it is a telestial kingdom. It is a state of probation for all mankind, to determine which one of those kingdoms they are worthy of, and will be consigned to in the day of judgment.

Edited September 20, 2011 by zerinus